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The Fact that Decisive Strike get's deactivated in the Endgame is just stupid
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The thing is it's not even just bubba who can take advantage of this. Any killer that can catch up or negate bodyblocking makes the lack of ds/otr a big problem, unless we wanna go through and change all of those killers then ds/otr being active in endgame would just make sense. But balancing the game around the killer just going for the same person over and over again just bc it's endgame is just obnoxious, I am aware that going for other ppl in endgame isn't viable but you could say that about any other part of the game too, since tunneling in general is just better. And the reality is that it's not smart much at all, it's literally just sitting by the hook and hitting m1 when someone comes by and then waiting 10 seconds for the endurance to run out, it's mindless
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If you take a hit while you're injured you go down and get hooked again...which is going to be the case if the killer just sits mindlessly at the hook and hits anyone going for the rescue, it's just not reasonable
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Ignoring my entire point about the killer getting a free trade, saying ds... Isn't meant to protect against tunneling? And calling me entitled when you want a free kill because there's "nothing else to do" even though sometimes you just don't deserve any kills because you got destroyed. You're telling me to get over it but I think you should, I'll be hitting the ignore button now since you don't want to be in reality
Post edited by Gcarrara on0 -
You misunderstood the specific conditions part. I was saying the conditions are specific enough to not justify its removal in endgame. The DC equivalent instead would be the Killer refusing to grab out of locker or after downing immediately off-hook. The Killer's denial of the perk in that example is the 'DC initiator', not the game's denial. Just as Deli is specific enough to only work on first hook. DS is anti-tunnel, Deli is self-unhook, Hexes are power at the price of vulnerability.
Also people keep saying 'no counterplay' as if there is only 1 survivor in a match of DBD. There are 3 other Survs, and more often than not, one of them had to get the unhook for the unhooked Surv to even have DS activate instead of dying on hook. Yes 4% Kobe exists, (with a potential Slippery Meat) yes Deli exists, but they are far from the norm (with a theoretical endgame DS). Also Pop and other down/hook based perks are equally 'win more' with 'no counterplay' as Survivors are designed to go down in chase (eventually). They all have counterplay, and there is nothing wrong with any of them being win more. I can't be against any anti-tunnel effects when so little exists in the form of preventing it in the first place. Hope and Devour Hope are far 'worse' in terms of 'win-more' perks, because they aren't addressing design flaws. Now to be clear, I think Hope and Devour Hope are both great, fun, well designed perks. The issue is they make your highs higher, as opposed to preventing lows being made lower. Preventing the worst of experiences is rarely a problem to me, especially when the example of 'no-counterplay' is a Bubba ignoring 2 free downs on different people for the tunnel off-hook instead.
Also its strange you consider the Killer's actions in endgame the Survivor's fault. I wouldn't consider an endgame facecamp an issue, since there are no more objectives to defend other than the hooked survivor. I would consider an endgame tunnel (as much as any state of the game) an issue, because the Killer had more than enough opportunity to grab or otherwise down the would-be unhooking Surv(s). This laser focus on 'must kill the unhooked person' is a strange obsession to me, as it isn't even always the path of least resistance. Even then, if the Killer left the hook, they risked extra kills at the cost of the one they have. They knew what they were signing up for when they did it. They could have simply facecamped in endgame and guarantee 1 (more) kill (assuming they had any before endgame in the first place).
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Expecting not to get hit by DS simply because it is endgame is a far greater entitlement. Facecamp for the 1k (which the Killer would have to be entitled to expect any kills regardless), or risk leaving hook for more kills at the cost of potentially losing the guaranteed kill.
Far better to go for injured - That is why it is a design flaw. When a Killer is always better off tunneling than going for the unhooking Survivor, the risk reward ratios are skewed in a negative fashion.
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Go for unhooker is counterplay. Quit lying to yourself about 'no counterplay'.
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That isn't actively stupid, that is playing around a (no-longer existent) perk. That isn't disingenuous, it is solving a problem you found impossible in the erroneous claim of 'no-counterplay'. An actual case of 'no-counterplay' is getting hit off hook. You can't control either the Survivor teammate, nor the Killer in that scenario.
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What does facecamping in endgame have to do with chasing mid match? Even then if you were talking about DS mid-match, the Conspicuous Action change more than adequately fixed the problems with the perk prior to it being butchered. I truly don't understand where the conversation swapped from endgame to earlier, but they do have that perk you were wanting. The perk is called Corrupt Intervention, and once you get the down (or after 2 minutes) it goes away. It is a little finicky, since some spawns are strange, but Survs are prevented from doing gens without risking themselves like you asked for.
If you are talking about unable to control other players, as Killer you can always control Survivors. You can corral them to a corner of the map by forcing them to risk a hit otherwise. You can pressure them off gens by chases or hooks. Survivors are largely your puppets, and you force them to risk things in order to gain others. Winning as Killer just involves weighing that risk, and taking the option that best suits your Killer/playstyle/perks/opponents. "I know this Feng has Lithe, so I'll chase this direction to force a wasted sprint burst." Or "I know this Meg will sit on gens regardless of who is on hook, so I'll chase the only other available person to ensure the people on hook don't get rescued." Or "I brought Wesker's Iri exposed and start infected add-on, so I will get some early intel in the form of sprays, so I can pass up Lethal Pursuer."
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So you need 2 Survivors for every rescue (through the entire match) to address a truly uncounterable design flaw? That seems a bit much. At the very least far more than I was asking for in saying chase the unhooking Survivor, especially when facecamped in endgame as it essentially results in a free down.
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No, Decisive Strike during end game collapse guarantees escape. The stun and duration could use an increase. It should be a lot more impactful since you can only use it once and only if the killer tunnels you. As the killer, it should feel like you've made a huge mistake tunneling this survivor and a learning experience not to do that again. Right now, it's a two second stun, which depending on your killer ranges from being mildly inconvenient to basically doing nothing.
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Because... one all 5 gens are done, the killer literally has no other objectives besides securing downs, or patrol near their already hooked survivors. That and Basekit BT has already give them extra means to escape. Allowing DS to work in Endgame, especially if they are down near the exit gates after being unhooked means the killer has no means to stop you from escaping.... it not like the killer can drag you away on the ground to avoid DS, it not like there are other downed survivor nearby or that they are completely healthy and there no chances of downing them and picking them up, in those situations.
It perfectly fair that DS only works any time but the Endgame. If you happen to be tunneling in the beginning and middle of the match, you get a Opportunity to used it then. If your teammates finish the last gen before you just got off the hook and get down, then you are out of luck.
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I sure hope you'd be okay with bubba's camping potential being nerfed
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It's always talk about the killer's objective...when the survivor's objective is to escape, but who cares I guess
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It more then that, the purpose of DS is to prevent and discouraged tunneling, especially in the beginning of the game. If you are bad survivor whom is poor at chase, or fail to relie on your teammates to do anything productive like gen repairs or taking the heat of the chase or protect you from hits; then this perk is your friend. If you are already successful in your objectives to fix the Generators, and opening the exit gates; the Survivors as a whole have already won. As far as I am concerned with fairness, I think it is perfect fair if the Killer doesn't have to deal with burden of DS being still present when they are crawling away to the exit gates within 60 seconds.
It not like DS prevent survivors from leaving and Entity blocks the gates for the killer. It simply makes it impossible for the killer to stop that one Survivor from getting away, especially when they have no chances to take down another survivor in their place. So, yeah... deal with it. I don't tunnel unless I am certain that opportunity presents themselves. And when there are no gens left, what else are killers is supposed to do by then?!?!
It not like Killer's cannot reset completed Generator by damage it. Or sabotaging the exit gate switch to delay the inevitable escape. DS being deactivate at EGC, is a perfect balance chance; although I do feel the stun time being reduced to 3 instead of 5 seconds is overkill and I would wished they revert that change.
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What else are survivors supposed to do besides escape? Sorry but in reality it just doesn't make sense. The lack of DS can lead to a free kill so easily it isn't fair whatsoever. The answer to your question btw is lose the game, as in a 0k, because that should happen at a certain point to a killer that got outplayed
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It's not a free kill. You have several teammates who can save you, body block for you, sabotage hooks for you, you could wiggle free, use dead hard or other exhaust perks. Killer has to account for each of these things when a survivor is unhooked. Survivors have plenty of protection in place by end game collapse (and this also doesn't account for several things they can have prior to it. Ds is not needing to return. The game is healthier with it not being a must have perk on every build
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If the killer camps the hook and injures both survivors that go for the save then it's just one survivor who can body block for you, which often isn't enough. Not to mention bodyblocking isn't always going to be consistent since the killer is already faster than the survivors, especially if it's one of the faster killers or a ranged killer or a tping killer etc
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That doesn't make sense at all. You got play by the killer, you wasted your BT protection, your teammates failed to even help you or you made a bad play that got you down before you even exit the gates. The match is not over yet, until you all escape the exit gates and physically end the match right then and there. If there is a chance to the killer outplay you and is able to prevent you from completing your objective. I'm sorry, but you simply lost and just let the killer secure their 1k victory, in that scenario. If your teammates weren't being so scared and left the exit gates, stick around to go for flashlights plays, bodyblocking, and hook sabotaging; they GREAT JOB. Your team is very productive in objective management as well as Protective of you, and now you 4 are teabaging the exit gates and secure the 4 escapes.
You really shouldn't blame the killer for your and your survivors teammates screwed ups, as you have the tools, perks, items to help with all of that; and DS is only perk at one thing. That is to discouraged tunneling at the beginning/middle of the match; not a "Walk out of Exit Gate Free Card", which is one of the major factors as why it is meta before patch 6.1!
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Exactly. DS was busted before, as everyone can run it; and ensure they have plenty of time to get chase, down, ds, and book it to the exit gates now open. It worse in hook exchanges, as anyone that has been hook is quite protected for 60 seconds, which can guarantee a free escape if they are closed to the exit gate in time. Plus, all the things survivors van do to remain "Untouchable" by the killer.
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If there is nothing for the killer to do in the one stage of the game, then it's the game fault, not the players fault (in this case, Survivors would have upper advantage in the only and last objective for the killer to do and punishing them for trying to achive it).
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I still use DS, but the problem of it is how bad it is against strong killers - and it only works if you are downed in a safe place so somewhat it depends of map RNG.
It has a "difficult" skill check that rewards you a little if you 1. are downed in a safe place 2. gets a few seconds more for your teammates to finish a gen.
Overall the perk is fine, but it needs small buffs - increases stun time (4s or 5s would be the ideal) or/and increase the duration of it for 80s (so it can be used with or without OTR).
These are the only things I would give to DS, that would make the perk totally fine since it's one-time usage and deactivate if you are doing some progress in game.
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If DS still worked in endgame, everyone would run it for a free escape on top of Basekit BT which was one of the reasons why it got nerfed.
Reaching End Game via 5 gen repairs does not equate to an automatic escape for Survivors. If it did, perks like Blood Warden, No Way Out etc wouldn’t exist. End Game builds do exist and are as valid as any other perk build.
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I said all gens but one...
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-"I don't understand how this change is fair. So the survivors gets punished because the killer wasn't able to spread pressure or hook me before?"
If everyone has DS then the killer is almost guaranteed to get no kills once the gates are powered due to how the unhook mechanic works with base kit BT. How do we know? The devs needed the DS perk nerfed so they would stop giving away multiple escapes when they played.
As it stands quite often it still results in a free escape.
DS got nerfed from being a "guaranteed" escape to the "potential" to escape. You might not agree but it's in a very fair state right now considering M1 killers. The problem is that DBD can't have one rule set for M1's and another rule set for the "a list" and a third rule set for Nurse/Blight.
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I'm aware, I blame the game for making it so easy. It's also an advantage they should have, it shouldn't be guaranteed that the killer secures that objective lol
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Why are survivors entitled to free escapes if they get gens done?
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I don't think it's unreasonable for me to wish endgame meta was replaced with something more interesting than just the killer sitting by the hook. It's the best decision but it's also just lazy if we're being honest
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They're entitled to free escapes if they get the gens done and play the endgame right, but rn even if they play the endgame right there's still sometimes nothing they can do
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It doesn't have to be that way. I've played several games as killer and not played that way at egc and won. It largely depends on who the killer is
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That's not true. If they die in the end it's because they were outplayed. Simple as that. Give me a scenario they can't possibly do anything in the end
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Bubba, stbfl, oni, huntress, trickster, nurse, spirit, blight, basement, literally just hook trades. Bubba camping the hook is not "outplaying" just because of the result it yields, don't have so much confidence in a game like this rewarding skill lol
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90% of the time it is, at least once you know a gate is 99d there's just no reason to leave the hook
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Stbfl is fine and impacts the entire game. No one would argue it ruins end game
Bubba isn't an end game issue. Yes he camps but that's ever present. If you get sawed down you made an error, therefore you didn't play perfectly. You shouldn't try to go for the save and if you get sawed down doing it that's on you as a survivor.
Huntress same thing as Bubba. That's in you.
Trickster is weak and not an issue for end game. I'd rather face him than most other killers in end game.
Blight and nurse are just busted in general.
Spirit is is easy to read now.
Only nurse and blight I'd give you is busted. The rest is 100% on the survivor for dying or getting downed. The other killers you mentioned are not that strong. If you want a counter to those things use "Hope" and you'll be good to go if it's not a skill issue of course
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Fam, 5 wasn't enough against her. Blight either. She would literally need to stand still for 7~8 seconds to get out of her attack radius (roughly 32m)
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STBFL makes endgame camping free bc of the very short cooldown, making catching up and dealing with body blocking absurdly easy
With bubba and huntress you completely ignore the issue, with the only counterplay being leaving the person to die because there's no actual counterplay to rescue them. They shouldn't be able to get 1ks for free.
Trickster again u ignore the issue, he is weak but he still can get a 1k for free, that is a stupid way of balancing a killer
Spirit can catch up easy and negate bodyblocking, her being easy to read has nothing to do with it.
Overall you're completely ignoring the issue while also referring to going down EVER as an "error," it is not, literally any killer can get a single hook. These killers can currently get 1ks for free just by camping the hook, that is ridiculous period.
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The fact is, survivor deserves to be hooked and sacrificed even in EGC, no matter what perks they brought.
Otherwise, we could simply remove EGC and let all survivors to instantly escape once gates are powered.
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If you expect killers to be unable to get a single hook in the game you are just playing the wrong game. None of those situations you brought up are free hooks. Killers worked for the hook (which is why a survivor is there). There is still counterplay available as a survivor even in solo play. I've rescued countless survivors against those killers and perks. You are really overestimating killer in those situations. Play swf with coms with decent players and you won't have any of these issues.
Also, use hope or were gonna make it and that let's you save much more quickly
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Congrats on using useless anecdotal evidence of bad killers not knowing how to take advantage of the nonsense that allows them to get a free kill. Playing in a swf with decent players won't allow you to get a 4 out against a camping bubba lol it's not even a conversation
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Seems like you are pretty set in your ways. This seems like a waste to go back and forth on. well see ya around.
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So sorry that a meaningless "I was able to do it before so therefore it's never impossible" didn't make me change my mind
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So a killer should be able to get a free kill as a reward for losing all the gens?
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You were saying it's impossible to get a save in those situations. I was sharing that I have personally been able to do it and have had people do it against me. You are speaking in absolutes where a survivor is just completely powerless to the big bad killer at egc.
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that shouldve been the only nerf ds got imo. in endgame tunneling should be encouraged. what else do you do??
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Then I'll correct myself. It's impossible if the killer uses their brain
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Because it makes you invincible
If you don't think that's OP then idk what to tell you
However, it really should be activatable more than once
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Why? He must hit skill check .... DBD makers can make it lower (lower skill check) for end game collapse.... It really should be uselles....
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lower*
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Well, like I said before. Play more killer and you'll see that killers aren't given free kills and these are easily counterable (outside of bubba).
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And like I said before, I have played killer and I can easily get 1ks for free without necessarily playing bubba
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Lose the game, gotta happen at some point
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