Visit the Kill Switch Master List for more information on this and other current known issues: https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/kb/articles/299-kill-switch-master-list
Game balance: how to rescue dbd from it's game-design hook
To start, I will say that I have been playing dbd since 2019 and have nearly 3k hours in game. I mainly play solo queue survivor + some killer and swf. I'm here to provide suggestions to improve the game.
I was motivated to make this post because I will likely not be playing anymore due to how the game design has been directed in the last year or so, and how what was a fun game for me turned into something disappointing.
There are 3 main reasons for this:
1) tunnelling being the optimal strategy for killers
2) matchmaking & the swf / solo queue imbalance
3) poor timing of in-game events
___
TLDR: incorporate a simple mechanic that rewards killers for unique hooks / rewards survivors when their team experiences tunnelling
___
Problems:
1) It is clear that tunnelling is the best strategy to win as killer. As a survivor, it is not fun when you get tunnelled, particularly when your team is winning, and a killer decides to tunnel to get an easy win. I can understand that it's nice to have an easier way to win against a good team, but this ties into matchmaking issues (see pt. 2).
Mechanics that encourage players to be eliminated early from a game are avoided/ameliorated in other games (think among us, most online shooters, board games, etc.), precisely because they don't allow a player to participate fully in the game. Nobody likes this in any game, yet it's been encouraged by game mechanics in dbd, especially in the last year. See the (second) DS nerf (the main thing that survivors had to prevent themselves from getting tunnelled).
2) The steps to improve the balance between swf / solo queue were a great step for dbd. Still, the imbalance between swf and solo queue is present. This is exaggerated in solo queue, as teammates in a single match have a wide variety of experience levels. Anyone who has played the game, killer or survivor, knows that variability in match skill is very high. I've seen BHVR employees on here saying that most matches feature MMRs that are close. This suggests that there is a problem with MMR calculation (or not enough people playing the game). MMR should reflect abilities in chases, gen pressure efficiency, and general high level strategy (which is likely only loosely correlated with kills/escapes, due to tunnelling meta). Playing against killers that are not experienced in chases / gen pressure but still win due to tunnelling is demoralizing, and likely imbalances matchmaking. Improving MMR calculation should help with this.
3) This point features a number of design choices - namely hook state, healing, and gen times. Firstly, hook states are short given gen times + healing times. Killers can choose to face-camp the first survivor and will be guaranteed at least a 2k if played correctly (especially with the increase in gen times last summer - the math is straightforward). This isn't an engaging way to play for either side... This is exacerbated in solo queue, as doing gens / working together on unhooks is hard to coordinate.
The updated healing changes are mostly healthy for the game - COH was too powerful. The other changes were certainly interesting, given that kill rates are well above 50%. It will certainly be worse for solo queue players that have a hard time finding other teammates to get heals.
Finally, gen times - they are too variable. On one end of the spectrum, survivors can bring gen rushing perks and toolboxes / brand new parts, and on the other end of the spectrum, killers can multiple passive gen regression perks. For game health, the amount of variability in gen progression should be mainly affected by pressure from both sides (not items or perks).
There are other things that could be improved (killer imbalances, map rng, some perk combos, etc.) but I'm sure they've been discussed elsewhere.
___
Solution:
There is a very simple solution to greatly improve game health, and it's very easy to implement!
1) Decrease gen speed for each new unique hook (maybe 10% each)
2) Increase gen speeds greatly for 2nd and 3rd hooks on the same survivor (maybe ~10% and 45%, respectively, non-cumulative)
3) Finally, to ensure face-camping doesn't become meta: increase hook state times if killer is near hook
___
A mechanic like this would provide multiple benefits:
1) Killers are rewarded for spreading out hooks early to prevent gen speeds from increasing (i.e. early game tunnelling is naturally less effective / discouraged)
2) Survivors will be less effective at completing multiple gens early in the game, but more effective when a survivor is sacrificed (whereas currently, for example, escaping a 3v1 with 2 gens left is very improbable). This gives both sides a better chance at turning the tables throughout the game.
3) Matches will be less lopsided by weaker teammates, as consecutive hooks will increase gen speed.
___
Consider this scenario with realistic (no tunnelling) hooking:
Initial gen speed: 100%
i) Survivors complete 1st gen when killer gets 1st unique hook (gen speed: 100%)
ii) Survivors complete 2nd gen when killer gets 3rd unique hook (gen speed: 80%)
iii) Survivors complete 3rd gen when killer gets 6th hook, two non-unique (gen speed: 90%)
iv) Survivors complete 4th gen when killer gets 8th hook, one survivor sacrificed, two 2nd stage (gen speed: 135%)
v) Survivors complete 5th gen when killer gets 10th hook, 2 survivors sacrificed, 2 2nd stage (gen speed: irrelevant)
Here, killers will have a large advantage in early game, making it easier to get hooks before gens are completed. Once many hooks are made, and a 3v1 is reached, survivors will have an advantage compared to the current 3v1 scenario. While this is a big speed increase for 3v1, the initial decrease should balance this, especially since a 4v1 has ~2 survivors on gens at all times, while a 3v1 usually only has 1.
___
Now, consider a scenario where the killer tunnels one survivor:
initial gen speed: 100%
i) Survivors complete 1st gen when killer gets 1st unique hook (gen speed: 100%)
ii) Survivors complete 2nd gen when killer gets 2nd hook on same survivor (gen speed: 110%)
iii) Survivors complete 3rd gen when killer gets 3rd hook, one survivor sacrificed (gen speed: 145%)
iv) Survivors complete 4th gen when killer gets 6th hook, one survivor sacrificed, 1 2nd stage (gen speed: 125%)
v) Survivors complete 5th gen when killer gets 10th hook, 2 survivors sacrificed, 2 2nd stage (gen speed: irrelevant)
In this case, survivors get a speed boost on gens when a killer tunnels, instead of the decrease they would experience when a killer does not tunnel. Here, when there are 2 gens left in a 3v1, the gen speed is now 145%.
___
I think implementing some sort of mechanic like this would greatly improve game health. Some notes:
- Of course the numbers I suggested are just guesses - they'd need to be optimized to make the game balanced.
- Matchmaking based on kills / escapes would be more reflective of ability to down survivors quickly / evade the killer, rather than your ability to tunnel one survivor / stop a killer from tunnelling (but matchmaking should still take into account efficiency)
- This would naturally lead to more balance between solo queue and swf
- The 3rd problem I listed would still exist, but would be much less exaggerated
___
Hope people like this idea! Suggestions / comments are more than welcome!
Comments
-
I agree with the premise.
Tunneling and camping are not healthy same with gen rushing.
Bhvr should reduce such gameplays on their side, not rely on players to play healthy (tho it would be appreciated).
And i generally agree with suggestion.
Tho imo better way would be to just leave players in game are remove ability to kill them before end of trial.
My idea is to remove sacrifices.
Every hook makes syrv to become a ghost for some time, and mories increase this time.
Gen speed have to be adjusted.
Trial timer so that game cannot last longer.
Exit gates oppens when both switches are done.
(Some mechanics to prevent killer from camping a switch. Maybe three switches and two of them have to be done).
If survs turnes both switches before time limit, killer is consumed by the Entity (its angry that killer did not done its job properly).
If survs are run out of time, the dawn comes to the realm, and Entity consumes survivors so they can be dead by daylight.
0 -
Thanks for reading! You listed some pretty interesting / cool ideas.
I think what I've proposed is fairly straightforward and easy to implement - some other ideas involving big changes can risk losing players.
A lot of other posts I see on here don't propose solutions to problems, so I'm hopeful ideas like this get a positive response.
With tunnelling in this game proliferating to amplify so many other issues, on both the killer and survivor side, I think this is a simple & well-balanced fix! A mechanic like this should have been implemented years ago.
1 -
This would not change the game itself. Core game loop will stay the same.
The only differences would be:
- Survs will be always able to play whole game.
- Win conditions will be clear.
0 -
I think keeping the core game loop is fine. Lots of people like it.
The main game health issue is tunnelling. Nearly every post on here has it brought up at some point.
Tunnelling in this game is like ganging up on someone in Risk so they get kicked out in the first couple turns. Or losing in Monopoly in the first few rounds. People that want to play the game aren't allowed to participate in it.
It's not fun for survivors to get tunnelled out, and it doesn't feel good to do it as killer either, despite it being encouraged by the poor game design.
I think the differences you listed would be already a huge improvement. I'm definitely open to bigger changes down the road (I like your ideas + there are a lot of other good bigger ideas on the forums), but this is low-hanging fruit.
This has been my favourite game for years, but I've moved on now and it really is upsetting - I don't know if I'm personally just tired of how disappointing it is to see hard tunneling in the majority of my matches, or if this is a problem that should make BHVR worried about DBD's future.
It's sad for me that I don't get enjoyment anymore out of something that's been such a big part of my life :( I'm sure other people can relate
2 -
Agreed on the theory. Incentivizing unique hooks and not tunneling. For camping adjustments I think the first and last 10/15s should be normal, and the middle 40/30s should have half the hook kill rate if within 24m (and no Survivor closer than Killer to hook). This would still allow for leaving hook safely to reach a full 60s timer, and still also allow for penalizing genb4fren if Survs try to pump gens when the Killer isn't camping.
I don't think gen times is enough to disincentivize tunneling. I would argue for buffing DS back to 5s, and giving a basekit 3s DS for 30s off hook. The perk DS would only activate once, but the basekit version would activate each time. I feel as though 30s is enough for Survivor greed to be punished, as well as punishing hard tunneling in a deadzone, or double hitting off hook.
1 -
So how would I break your system:
As killer? Hook each survivor once, to get maximum slowdown, then only slug survivors till they bleed out. Sounds fun.
As survivor? Make one player body block and actually try to get tunneled, so gens are faster. He will use both OTR and DS to gain as much time as possible. Before dying and we can take hits while he is on deadhook.
This is actually already valid strategy sometimes used on tournaments. It would be way stronger with your system.
4 -
DS doesn't work basekit. It's useless when you know about it. So what, 30 sec? I can just slug you, push survivors from gens before hooking you after 30 sec.
0 -
I think what you are doing is a very roundabout way of addressing tunnelling. It would be much more straight forward to remove (or nearly remove) the early elimination element of tunelling than to keep that but punish killer players for doing it/reward them for not doing it.
ie.
Take either 1 hook state from each survivor and move them into a pool of shared hook states that the entire team uses.
Now if a killer only ever chases 1 survivor the entire match, they will have to hook them 6 times. If they want to face camp them to death, they will be waiting in front of that hook for 5 minutes.
Kobes will burn your 1 personal hook state instead of using the team hook states. If that kobe fails you lose the personal state and cannot attempt to kobe anymore.
All hooks that occur within the team pool are like first hooks where you don't have to do anything, any hooks that take place after the team pool is gone will be struggle phase hooks.
This will certainly shift the balance more towards survivors, but killers can always be buffed in other ways if necessary and the end result is a game that's more fun for everyone.
This makes early elimination practically impossible and gurantees that survivors won't be dying until at least the mid game.
2 -
Yeah the hook state idea here is nice!
Isn't there a plan to make UB base-kit? I don't think slugging won't really be a valid strategy anymore in that case. Killers could still tunnel and get 1-2 kills, it would just be harder to get a 4k by tunnelling.
As a survivor, sure, you could try to take hits / try to get tunneled, but firstly, I doubt survivors would want to get tunnelled, and secondly, that would be 2 survivors interacting with the killer instead of doing gens - not the most efficient way of playing the game, but hard to say - maybe it could be an issue.
That said, ideas to address tunneling different from the one I proposed are welcome!
This is a pretty cool idea too. I can still see as killer tunnelling the weakest survivor + as survivor having a poor teammate use up all the 'team' hook states (which would be frustrating). Would still be a nice improvement.
Honestly - I'm on board for any ideas that get rid of tunnelling. And there are lots of ways to do it! Addressing DS would be nice too. People ran it for a reason (even after the first nerf). I remember spending extra money just to get it because tunnelling was so upsetting.
Thanks everyone for replying! It's nice to see that pretty much everyone agrees that some changes should be made to address tunnelling.
1 -
Shared pool of hooks is terrible idea.
It's buff for SWF, sucks for soloQ. Do you really want one troll waste your hook states? I don't.
Unbreakable basekit went to hell. It was just attempt, but it didn't go well. They tried it along auto Mori system to balance it. Both were bad with mostly negative feedback.
Your issue is that you can't really straight nerf tunneling without buffing different aspects for killers.
Thing is: what alternative strategies do survivors enjoy?
3-gen? Nope
Camping? Super nope
Slugging? Super nope
End-game build? Nope
Tunneling? Nope
Hit&run (Legion)? Nope
Stacking slowdown? Nope
All those were nerfed, except tunneling. That's why you see it used that much.
Well, hit&run was buffed with this patch, but that's killer specific playstyle. It was almost unplayable for long time, because of CoH.
Only acceptable way for them is basically going for 12 hooks, but there is no way to balance around that. It's not possible. There was time when lot of killer did it and it was during BBQ, Ruin, Pop builds. It actually encouraged killers to leave hook.
All three were nerfed. There is simply not reason to go for different survivors, if you want to win.
Issue is that it's so hard to change killers overall when you have Nurse/Blight/Spirit on one end and Trapper/Pig/Myers on other.
It's also hard to change survivors when you have SWF on one end and soloQ on other.
3 -
As interesting as that would be, it would require an entire overhaul
0 -
I admire killers that are able to handily win without tunnelling. Those killers usually control chases in a way that they can apply gen pressure (to the right gens) concurrently. It involves thinking the game at a really high level and it's impressive to see. It's complementary to an experienced and well coordinated survivor team.
But, as a killer, it's harder to win that way compared to tunnelling. Tunnelling killers I face are often not so experienced in chases / virtually apply no gen pressure, yet still get 4k's often.
I think what I proposed is still a better alternative to the current state of the game, even if slugging is still a thing. At least in that case, teammates can pick me up, and the killer needs to chase everyone - not just one person. If killers need another buff to make it work, that's fine. I just want a mechanic to remove the worst part of this game.
I agree about the balancing killers + solo queue vs. swf part.
1 -
Have you played against Forever Freddy? It's long time ago. It wasn't fun, at all. He was nerfed to oblivion because of it.
Your change would make it worse on every killer. I wouldn't even need to get 4k, just try to hook everyone asap, to get maximum slowdown, then simply slug and defend 3-gen.
You think skull merchant was bad? This would be way worse and every killer could do it.
Your change with Thana would be lovely. Have fun on gens.
Their aim is to make games faster if you didn't notice. This would do opposite.
0 -
The ~30s is enough to (mostly) recover, so if an ally is nearby they can quickly pick up while the Killer leaves for a bit. If the Killer immediately picks up, they need a 2nd/3rd hit to finally get the real down. If the Survivor didn't get hit for Deep Wound, they can hide in a locker to force a grab or wait out the 30s. If the team realizes the locker attempt, that is a free ~90s on gens (30 per Surv). Each directly penalizes gen time without adjusting the modifiers.
I did read a bit of your other response, and thought of a counter to one of the counters. To prevent bodyblocking, just have no collision while no conspicuous actions are taken. Conspicuous actions can then also determine whether what degree of penalty (or which side rather) to apply. Is it the 2nd hook total on the same Survivor and they did a conspicuous action? Then it doesn't count towards the penalty nor the benefit. That way Killers can intentionally chase the rescuer for the bonus, but not penalize them if that unhooker Survivor greedily taps a gen in their face. Survivors could risk this by crouching at the gen and not progressing the game, but the Killer would then clip through them to know they aren't helping their team.
0 -
What I proposed would slow the game at the start, but speed it up as it progresses. If you want to avoid slugging, then add a timer to the gen speed changes. Or make a weak UB base-kit. Or increase gen speeds according to the dying state timer the same way hook states would. There are simple things to address all these theoretical nuanced points.
The whole point of my post is to propose a simple solution to address tunnelling + other issues in the game, while still maintaining balance. If you have better solutions I encourage you to offer them... These issues are easy to fix and I think it's universally agreed upon that it's important for game health.
I like this idea. When DS was a useful perk, tunnelling was a lot less common. This could shift the game back to something that feels more fair. But killers might need a buff depending on how many players this would affect (I would guess a lot just based on my games).
2 -
Want to avoid slugging? Increase time for recovery but allow the inherent ability to get up if left to long. Stop camping by making hook timer not progress if killer is within x distance without survivors around. I'm not sure you will ever be able to stop tunneling unless you give a perma borrowed time that can withstand any amount of hits for x seconds. as long as survivor moves certain distance from last hook and is not in chase from unhook or doing a Gen (working on a gen would remove any temporary buff). Idk how this would work with huntress as often times with huntress it never even enters chase
The games I have the most fun is with killers that really slap survivors around, conatant hits constant hooks. Don't even care if I die, was fun and intense.
If a killer wants to ruin a specific survivors game then it should be allowed but at the expense of their own lol...this is essentially genrushes birth circumstances
0 -
Lots of good points. Lives pool just makes survivors ignore killed people and rush objectives, afterall theres X lives left. ( happened in Deathgarden too)
Personally i cant wrap my head around the "cant buff weak killer because good killer exists" narrative. It's funny that killers get refered to as a singular character and solo/swf as seperate.
Buffs to survivor will affects survivors n all team dizes.
Tweaking pigs eye-height in couch will... affect only pig.
1 -
You can buff specific killer. Like trapper has extra trap.
But if you give overall killer buff like basekit corrupt or something, it will have often has stronger effect on already strong killers. See that issue?
Nurse have already did it few times, where perks were nerfed because of her. She was also on of killers that break auto Morri system.
Buffs and nerfs to survivors affect all team sizes. Yeah and that's kinda an issue. I wouldn't nerf SWF, because I consider it unfair and bad idea for future development of the game.
Kinda only thing you can do to survivors is making basekit information changes, things that are easy to do over voice communication. Action icons did that for example.
But basekit OTR etc. won't help soloQ that much, but will buff SWF way more.
Those gaps in each side are main issue for balancing and you simply have to think about it with any balancing idea.
1 -
See how fast you gave up on balancing and simply making it really survivor sided change?
So killers will get little boost to gen speed for each single hooked survivor, while survivors get buff for each player on deadhook, or dead. Don't even even need to be dead and also basekit UB.
It would also promote selfish playing on survivor side. "Yeah, he didn't work on gen, just let him die on hook so we do gens faster." So again buff more for SWF, then soloQ.
Dying should not be rewarded. It's supposed to be something survivors try to avoid.
0 -
I think this is pretty bad and complicated, "Oh the generator is suddenly slower cause the Killer hooked someone without a Perk."
You suggestion would be a great perk, maybe but as a general effect of the game. It breaks the illusion if it isnt a Perk.
1 -
I don't see how having a timer on these changes would be survivor sided... Gen speed changes would be both slower and faster for a limited time.
This would not be a buff to swf. You wouldn't let your teammate die because they didn't do gens? You just wouldn't play with them lol. It would be a buff to solo queue because weaker survivors wouldn't drag the team down as much, which is exaggerated in solo queue.
What I'm asking for is a nerf to tunneling. I know many killers like playing that way, but if other playstyles get buffed, things will change.
Again, please feel free to offer up your own (well thought out) solutions. Constructive criticism is appreciated.
It's not so complicated. It's just gen speed changes, which are easy to implement. There are a lot of other solutions to address tunnelling that are more complicated. I would like to hear other simpler ideas though!
I would be interested in hearing more about how the proposed idea here breaks illusion. It's a passive change. I envision it as something like a stress / pressure mechanic. For me, I find that tunneling breaks illusion more than anything in the game. The meta shouldn't be one that feels like griefing.
1 -
It's not so complicated. It's just gen speed changes, which are easy to implement.
Not complicated to implement, complicated to explain to a new player and justify to them too. I cannot see bHVR wanting to implement something outside of Perks that isn't simple and basic rules. bHVR is super heavy on that philosophy.
For me, I find that tunneling breaks illusion more than anything in the game.
I don't believe you have ever seen a Slasher Movie in your life now. Its literally what they would do.
0 -
These balance suggestions are esoteric and as such mostly have an impact in high-level gameplay. Nor do they introduce that much interesting gameplay apart from stat-sticks that once again, are esoteric in nature and only really noticed/appreciated in high-level play.
Increasing Hook Timers for Survivors near Hooks based on proximity gives the Killer a zone of "Feel-bad if stay near" for a Killer that is literally supposed to be trying to Kill the Survivors.
Instead of punishing Killers for being near Hook, give Survivors more tools to get a Survivor off of the Hook at Base.
Tying Gen speed to Hook states gives Survivors incentive to actually WANT TO BE TUNNELED, meaning Survivors will have an incentive to body-block more, dump chase/health into one survivor, etc. It also means the Killer can't punish Survivors for performing unsafe unhooks, or literally running up to them after being unhooked. There is also the issue that tying gen regression to GETTING A HOOK IN THE FIRST PLACE also exacerbates Killers that might struggle against the default gameplay mechanics (EG: M1 Killers)
Instead of tying generator regression to being a "fair player" to deincentivize camping, give Killers a secondary Objective for spreading Hooks that increases their lethality. Something akin to collecting the "essence" of Survivors powering up some kind of entity buff that can be consumed.
All in all just manipulating Timers will not address the issue that the base-game itself has gotten stale as hell, nor will it address the feelings of "Tunneling is still the best way to get to a "checkpoint" for Killer, like Survivors with Generators". So instead seek to introduce new mechanics that also address these issues.
1 -
Ok so... That'll be hard for BHVR to code into the game
And yes we used to have BBQ which gave BP bonus to each unique Hook (4 for 100% bonus)
But since they took that away players want the easiest ways to "win" games/matches
I agree with the premise but there could be some tweaks...
Like:
1st Survivor Hooked means nothing... but if that Survivor is hooked again within 60 seconds then the other get buffed (maybe 10% Gen efficiency, haste for 10 or so seconds, healing 10% faster)
And if the Killer Kills that one Survivor then the bonus gets applied for the rest of the match... and the Survivors get a BP boost (I know that it won't matter but it's there for those players that do get Tunneled out of the game without doing much and it's not their fault)
And if the Killer hooks a second Survivor then Gen efficiency buff (for them... but for Survivors it's a Nerf) to 85%, Haste for 10 seconds
And if the Killer then hooks a third Survivor then it stays for the rest of the match
If the Killer gets the 4th Survivor then they get a BP bonus
This is off the top of my head... and not a lot of thought was put into it
0 -
The hook timer issues were more prominent after gen speeds were slowed last summer, yet hook times stayed the same. That was a face camping buff. Facecamping can get an easy 2k, so I think the timing needs to be looked at. But that's beside the point.
I mentioned this before, but survivors are not going to want to get tunnelled. It's not fun. It would still be somewhat beneficial to killer gameplay as having 1 less survivor working on gens is huge - the benefit just would be less prominent as it is now. It's why tunnelling is in nearly every match right now. Two survivors at 100% speed is similar to one at 200% speed. Having that slowdown in gen progression as early as possible (aka tunnelling) makes it easier to win.
Conversely to what you mentioned - I think it would be fresh to not have to do all those things you listed (taking hits, body blocking, etc.) for just the survivor getting tunnelled, as that's how most matches play out in the current state of the game. It would encourage more survivor-killer interaction across the whole team.
I don't see how this would cause differential effects for M1 killers. Killers are too variable / imbalanced and that's a separate issue. But if I'm missing something here lmk how it could be addressed.
I do agree that other things to make the game more fresh would be nice. I've seen some cool ideas on here regarding different objectives / forms of gameplay.
That said, what I've proposed is simple / not risky. It could definitely use adjusting, but I haven't seen things on here (other than maybe a DS buff) that would address tunnelling. And the game needs it to be addressed. I've already stopped playing, which is why I'm here as a sort of last ditch effort to salvage a game I love.
0 -
Maybe increase hook time to 80s per stage would be a thing? This would means that camping would result in only 1k, because 3 survs can finish 5 gens in 160s (those are raw numbers, on fact its more, but for hook time we should also add find surv and chase time).
This would not help with tunneling, but without camping, tunneling will be more difficult.
2 -
There is a difference between penalizing current Killer gameplay to stop tunneling, and introducing new interactions that make it harder to tunnel.
Adding a stat-stick bandage to make Killers stop tunneling without changing the core gameplay just introduces a negative player experience.
And a simple change like a stat-stick change is actually riskier, as if it fails, it adds a greater negative stigma to gameplay feature that a player is used to, that will always be in a players subconscious even if changed/reverted, rather than a new gameplay element that can be excised if found wanting.
1 -
I want to reward killers for spreading out pressure while discouraging tunneling, accomplishing both through the same mechanic, in a balanced way. I think something along the lines of what I've proposed does just that.
Are you saying that a hallmark feature of dbd is tunnelling? I wouldn't disagree - that's why I'm making this post. But further, do you think killers will stop playing if they are discouraged from tunnelling, because they are used to it / enjoy it? I was under the impression that most killer players don't like tunnelling, but do it because it's an easier way to win against good survivors. I think most of the player base would like killers spreading out pressure being rewarded. If killers enjoy tunneling in this game, that's straight up mean - it ruins player's experiences, and won't make new players stick around. To me, it does not feel good to do.
What sort of new gameplay element would you prefer over what I proposed? I'm sure the community is open to ideas + I'd love to hear it.
Someone on here earlier said that BHVR is focused on only introducing changes through perks. They've shown they're willing to make changes to base timing in the game (i.e. healing, gens, etc.). Still, perk ideas, new mechanics, etc. that address these issues would all be appreciated. I shared what I think would work, and so far, I don't think anyone has made a compelling argument against it, or for something that would work better, including the status quo.
FWIW, everyone I've met through dbd + people I introduced to the game have all agreed that a mechanic like this would be great. Let BHVR work out the details, but imo addressing tunneling (and the imbalances that arise due to it) should be their first priority.
0 -
I think variations of this / what I proposed sound good. Anything to reward killers for spreading out pressure, dissuade them from tunnelling, and maintain balance in the game in the process. Basically any mechanic that shifts the meta to spreading out pressure.
0 -
I have to give you credit for how in-depth this is. On paper this sounds amazing to solve the problem, but I feel like a massive rework to gen perks has to happen.
0 -
With regards to your comment about tunneling: Yes, if the Killer wants to Kill, they should have the agency to do so. If you want to reduce tunneling, stop trying to spray a water bottle in the Killers face for the same core actions just in a different circumstance, make the circumstance hard to get into in the first place. This is my take on it:
You can give them a reward, which is what you are suggesting. However in my opinion a stat-stick reward is esoteric. It's a number that you can't see/understand easily in moment to moment gameplay. It's not going to be effective at shaping player behavior (outside community outcry on the patch notes). Why not make it so that performing Sequential Hooks on Survivors builds "Devotion", which after a certain limit will allow the Killer to Kill a Survivor by their own hand at the end of the Trial, during the EGC. Which also gives a hefty bonus amount of Bloodpoints.
0 -
Yeah that's a neat idea and I like it in theory!!! It involves more drastic changes than altering stats (map design, harder to code, etc.), so I could see a barrier to implementation. But something along those lines would also be a welcome improvement. Thank you for sharing :)
I understand the sentiment that 'stat-stick' changes in gen speeds based on hooks is not intuitive for newer players, but in context, most of the game is not intuitive for newer players (It took me like 1000 hours to feel like I knew most perks/mechanics). Imo, the less complicated the changes, the better. I 100% think that these changes would affect gameplay in the majority of matches, because getting a 4k by tunneling would be WAY harder, and players typically want to play the optimal way to win.
I have always envisioned a mechanic like this as being incorporated as survivors experiencing 'fear' which causes them to repair gens slower, and 'pressure' which causes them to repair gens faster. Maybe not the best conceptual parallel, but the idea is there.
I think a QoL improvement regardless would be showing survivors what their current gen speed is. It would make it easier for newer players to keep track of how different perks affect gen speed.
Finally - I understand the theory behind your point that it's not preferable to penalize killers for the same action regardless of which survivors the action involves. In practice, I have to disagree, because (currently) tunnelling is a natural extension of the that sentiment, and it's so bad for the game. What I proposed isn't just a penalty to hooking the same survivor repeatedly - it's a benefit to the killer for spreading out hooks, basically creating a new optimal way to win the game. It should maintain balance. Everyone should want that for fun games and keeping dbd around in the long run.
I just want BHVR to do something about tunnelling. It is far and beyond the most prominent strategy employed in the game, and just as disappointing as other frowned upon strategies (i.e. facecamping). So many game health issues will ameliorated upon addressing it. Whoever has the most appropriate idea on here, or whoever at BHVR can think of something better, please run with that. I am confident the game would be in a much better state afterwards.
1 -
Forgot to address this point, just wanted to say I like it!! (assuming you mean sequential hooks on different survivors).
0 -
Thank you! I agree on the rework point. In the universe of methods to address tunnelling, I think the rework would be relatively straightforward? But who knows. It's really tough to understand balance without the PTB and player feedback.
0 -
Coming back to say how I've only played ~3 matches since making this post, due to tunnelling in every match since.
I'll say it again --- something that feels like griefing shouldn't be meta in any game.
Looking forward to coming back when the game changes to address this :)
0 -
1) Decide if DBD is a competitive or casual party game first. Talking about balance before deciding on this is moot.
If the game is competitive:
2) Voice chat and Chat wheel for Survivors. Solo Queue is now essentially swf, whether players choose to use it or not is on them.
3) Balance the game based on swf vs Killer.
4) Cosmetic/Rewards from Leaderboard rankings
If the game is casual:
2) Remove SBMM
3) Add an AI director to swing things around if either side gets the advantage very early on.
4) Add other game modes like 2 v 8, get the flag etc
If BHVR wants the best of both worlds then they will just have to go back to slapping band aid fixes on current problems and come up with even more band aid fixes for new problems created from prior band aid fixes.
0 -
Survivors repair generators at high speed.
Killer camping, tunneling and slugging.
Survivors' use of syringes and gears.
Strong add-ons with killers.
If you disagree with any of the above, then DBD is a casual party game for everyone.
0
