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Exhaustion perk suggestions
Changes
Sprint Burst (added)
- Cannot be activated until having walked for 3 seconds straight
- Stops being activatable if the user stops walking
Lithe (rework)
- Press the active ability button while running near a vault location to immediately perform a running vault over it
- Causes exhaustion for 40 seconds, cannot be used while exhausted
Overcome (rework)
- When the killer misses an attack on you, move at 150% movement speed for 3 seconds (would obviously require a lot of work to program and shouldn't be activated against dumb stuff)
- Causes exhaustion for 40 seconds, cannot be used while exhausted
Dead Hard (added)
- Immediately enter the dying state if Dead Hard doesn't successfully protect the user from damage
- The killer is notified while chasing a survivor with Dead Hard active
- No longer requires being unhooked or unhooking yourself to activate
- Zombies and Guards will no longer hit a survivor while they use Dead Hard
Notes
Sprint Burst:
Currently is the definition of "free," more than dh ever was. Insanely powerful effect with basically zero prerequisit and is even strong when not 99d, and even then, it's not that hard to 99. It can be 99d easily while on a gen solo or with someone else, and is beyond powerful when used that way. Purpose of this change is to just add SOME prerequisit to using it. Having to walk before using it would basically prevent it from being able to give you mega distance for free, but would still be very useful while mindgaming a killer around a tall loop or stealthing. Basically in situations where you would walk anyways.
Lithe:
The perk I personally find most annoying out of any of these. Although technically having a prerequisit, it's pretty meaningless realistically speaking. Literally any survivor can get a fast vault off, and then subsequently get the insane value that Lithe provides. With this rework the perk would still have no prerequisit, but have a MUCH more reasonable effect that wouldn't make or break a chase as often as it does now and is something that I'd personally find really fun and at the very least would want to see on some perk in the future.
Overcome:
I don't even know how this perk exists tbh. Most hold W perk in the game, just why? A perk like this really just shouldn't exist, and although there's situations where it won't work, they are not at all the usual. This rework is probably unrealistic for it to be implemented, as stuff like killers using their powers to break a pallet, trickster missing as little as one knives out of a flurry of knives, plague infecting the environment, dredge breaking a lock, etc obviously shouldn't activate it. Imo, it would activate if no part of the whole attack affected the user, another survivor, or the environment, and would start when the killer enters their attack cooldown. So in the case of trickster for example, he would have to throw at least one knife and have none of them hit you, and then exit the throw state for it to activate. I'm sure this sounds really out there but imo it would makes more sense if there was a better standard for what counts as an attack and a missed attack and whatnot since it would just be cool to implement into some perks and whatnot even if it's not necessarily this. This version of the perk might still be annoying but would be very fair and very practical to play around.
Dead Hard:
This perk has problems, and this perk has non problems. DH against certain killers and at pallets is a problem. DH in the open at close range is not. Point of these changes is to make it very worth it to bait DH out, and would give it counterplay in said form where there currently is none. The killer being notified of the perk would also help plenty, as without it it could still be very obnoxious not knowing whether or not to miss an attack on purpose to bait out DH, and is something I personally wouldn't mind as a survivor could still get lucky timing it even if the killer knows they have it. My thoughts on DH have previously been further explained here: https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/373516/tl-dr-for-previous-dh-post
Inb4 someone comments "they're fine as is" and anything I said apparently becomes meaningless 👍
Comments
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they're fine as is
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😱
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And here we go again. "DH is problematic, all the other exhaustions are fine. Why would anyone want to nerf sprint burst and lithe? Just nerf DH. Other exhaustion perks are OK. It's only DH that's OP uncounterable". Moving goal post at it's best.
Stop it already!
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Did you put your own opinion in quotes orr? Anyways, I keep hearing this but the goalpost isn't gonna keep moving forever, at least not for me. Perks like no way out, lethal pursuer, jolt, noed, for the people, we'll make it, bond, kindred, resilience, and prolly even some others are all fine imo. I'll almost certainly never complain about those even if they end up being the best perks in the game, at least not for being too strong
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Just no. I'm a killer and eve I think this is a bad idea. Dead hard has been problematic for some time and I'm not going to say anything about it. But the other exhaustion perks haven't been a problem. They're strong but not overpowered. They don't need touched. Not every perk that annoys you needs nerfed.
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Well imo, they are a problem, more of a problem than dh was too and for reasons beyond simply "they annoy me" so :o
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ah that is the reason you made a topic that "lithe and sb are more annoying than dh" just 12 days ago?
😂
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And? Just because I find them annoying doesn't mean that's my ONLY reason for wanting them to change. get better
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But I thought that was the reason for exhaustion perks... to gain distance? They don't call it Sprint Burst because you have to wait for it, they call it Sprint Burst because it's a sudden burst of speed... meaning that yes, it is suppose to be use to gain distance for free.
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I'm not sure I understand the Lithe rework you're suggesting. I understand it as "press a button near a vault while running to fast vault", which would be a bad perk, even if I agreed Lithe needed a rework in the first place (which i don't)
The only scenarios I can think of where you slow / medium vault instead of getting a fast vault are either because you messed up (and messing up will still happen), because you were taken by surprise and weren't running (which is still a condition for the perk, so it wouldn't change anything) and on very occasional situations where the layout doesn't let you get a fast vault, but it wouldn't guarantee not taking a hit, and even if it did why would anyone use a perk that exhausts you for 40s just to fast vault when 95% of the time you can already fast vault without issue?
I feel like I'm misunderstanding what you're trying to say because this would not a good perk, even less a good exhaustion perk. It literally just sounds like "press E instead of space and the exact same thing will happen but you will be exhausted for 40s" to me.
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I see that (Dead hard) with this proposal will be as doomed as the last time they reworked (Mettle of Man)
This is what I call "perks that does more harm to you and your team than good."
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Leave lithe alone please cause after using it since 6.1 it grew on me. The other ones I dont use so meh to them as they all is worthless You also have fear monger and you be so surprised how annoying it is. 5 seconds may not sound alot but many times I wanna lithe a nearby window and cant cause killer already on my hide.
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The point is that you wouldn't need to get the extra momentum to do it, so you wouldn't have to run shack wide for example to hit the running vault
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Nah, it's still the same perk really, just not uncounterable anymore
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No thanks, lithe is a stupid perk, as are sprint burst and overcome which are absolutely not bad perks. Also shouldn't have to use fearmonger to deal w these stupidly powerful effects unless we wanna keep countering tunneled tied to otr which we def should not want
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I'll mention for the record the obligatory statement that I don't think there's anything really wrong with most of these perks.
But, to tackle your ideas... Overcome is the only one that could possibly warrant changing, with Sprint Burst as a sort of nebulous 'maybe' if it does turn out to be too problematic. Your pitch for Lithe could certainly make a decent perk on its own, so in that vein I have no problem with it, but I see no reason to make it how Lithe functions. Your version of Dead Hard carries too much risk, where the current version has just enough.
Overcome... I do think your pitch would be better for the game than the current version, Overcome is definitely the only problematic design out of the Exhaustion perks, but I worry that it'd be too difficult to work coding-wise. It'd be pretty easy to end up with kind of a buggy mess that only properly functions at missed hits near windows, but there is the option of just having it function on basic attacks instead. Less useful, but more stable. I dunno, maybe they could make it work. The only change I'd be fully on board with here, if so.
Sprint Burst, I think your change is completely overkill. Having to walk for three whole seconds would make the perk basically useless, the situations you outlined really aren't common enough to properly warrant taking an entire perk. However, I would say that having to run for two seconds or so would be a more fair restriction; you can't use it to rocket away from a generator at the last second, or bait the killer into missing a swing, but you can still use it if you have advance warning on the killer's approach at a generator, and in regular chases with no real change in effectiveness. Even then, I think it's premature to say that's necessary, Sprint Burst has been perfectly fine for the majority of its existence at this point.
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This is what I call salty killer mains idea to make the game easier on himself.
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Considering hit validation is already wonky when it comes to vaults, I can't imagine this perk working properly enough to be useful (aka preventing a hit bc the perk doesn't give you distance anymore), or working in a consistent manner. And honestly even if it did I still don't think it'd be worth an exhaustion perk (unless they all get nerfed to the ground as you're suggesting of course)
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Orrr just making dh actually counterable in situations where it's not =)
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This version of lithe would still overall give u distance, since it would take less time to get to the other side of the window without having to get further away to get momentum first. And since you get to choose when u wanna use it, I still think you could get good use out of it honestly
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but noed and no way out is fine? lol am not even gonna bother. lithe is fine and if you dont wanna run fear monger similar to how people complain about aura reading perks and are told run distortion or off record for tunneling, same concept.
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Def agree on overcome cuz, yeah. Sprint Burst is hard to say tbh, but there are def situations where walking was a decent idea anyways and sb would've been very good in them. But I don't like the running idea, as that is a prerequisit as meaningless as lithe's current one
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Noed is really easy to counter now and no way out is literally one of the healthiest perks in the game. Also no idea who's complaining about aura reading...but also already made it clear I don't think countering tunneling should be tied to otr sooo yeah nothing contradictory there not gonna sugarcoat it
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Keep telling yourself that buddy
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I mean the idea isn't bad at all (without talking about it replacing Lithe) but I just have a hard time picturing it working as intended tbh.
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😭? Aight guess I will sorry that I think dh being uncounterable is stupid
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The prerequisite for these perks isn't really meant to be a genuine barrier, just a safeguarding ability. Lithe's prerequisite is perfectly adequate because it differentiates the perk from Sprint Burst (+ allows you to run normally outside of chase, which SB doesn't let you do, another downside often overlooked) and adds a little bit of flavour to how you approach chases, it's not meant to make Lithe literally unusable outside of specific scenarios.
Same with the running for Sprint Burst. If you want to give it more prerequisites than it has now, the goal would be to change how the player approaches chases - here a running mental calculation of at what point they need to start running for Sprint Burst to save them, when the killer is approaching - as well as to curb any unpleasant edge cases like survivors that run at the very last second on generators. An element of risk, and an element of tactical thinking. That's what these perks are designed around, as far as I can tell.
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Ah I see idk I'm no programmer :P :P :P
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No way out aint healthy, I did my task and wish to leave to move on to another game and is being delayed and it also gives extra kills that by right a killer should not even got sometimes. Heck ill admit that I been in games I use it and noed and technically I should have got only 0 or 1k but end up with a 3 to 4k..so yeah.
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The devs put those perks in the game to use them. If they thought killers only deserved the kills they got before the gens were done then the match would end when the final gen was done.
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Noed turning a 0-1k into a 3-4k is honestly just a skill issue on survs part and...you're literally just complaining about no way out doing something, lol. Get the gate open then you can say you did your task and funnily enough then you also can move onto another game
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and your complaining lithe as if there is a pallet or window everywhere. Funny thing is fast vault a high window and only get a 1 second or 0 or lithe. Ill say it again fear monger.
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I like the Sprint Burst change. Having to run for 3 seconds now gives it a requirement that fits with the theme of the perk.
However, I cannot agree with the other exhaustion perks changes as I believe they are already working fine in a balanced way.
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I'll say it again fearmonger shouldn't be necessary to deal with them for the same reason otr shouldn't be necessary to counter tunneling, we've been over this already...
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It's 3 seconds of walking actually. Also I don't think the others are balanced besides dh really. The moment sb gets nerfed lithe and overcome will take its spot and basically have the same problem of huge distance with very little effort or prerequisite or anything needed. You can have free distance and you can have lots of distance, but they absolutely shouldn't be together
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To agree with you on one thing. I did say lithe when more use may see a significant in different of how much time i can waste vs easy to bait dead hard( not on forums but i say this to streamers and they like who complains about dh.
Heck I had people dc when I did some lithe they didnt expect like the dredges who love to put renaments at drop pallet and think he gonna use it to hit when I vault the pallet with lithe lol. Also when killer is lazy to bring good pallets and there is another good pallet or tile ill just lithe that baby and waste more their time.
So do I side with you some what lithe being more annoying at dh but at the same times most maps there is barely windows or pallets to get much use out if it. Its a 50 50 with this perk if you look at carefully.
I also will say I want sprint be reworked or gutted cause am tired of urban fixated users making me hit hook 2 from hook 1. Sprint burst teaches bad habits.
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If you fail then you down but if the killer hits you then your speed increases and you will not down ( Where is the logic? )
Also, the killer knows that I use (Dead hard) so there is no need to hit me and just wait until I use it and then carry me directly.
If I failed to use it against long-range killers, I would also down
I can't wait to see one of my team down after successfully dodging The Blight only because he used Dead Hard, but the killer couldn't hit him.
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Sprint Burst, Lithe, Overcome, and Dead Hard don't need a change in my opinion, they are fine the way they are. If you're going to change any exhaustion perk, change Adrenaline.
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Wym where is the logic? You fail so you lose or you succeed so you win, pretty obvious logic right there no?? Also you can take advantage of the killer waiting, cuz if they just wait forever they'll just be kidding themselves. And yeah, because long range killers should have counterplay to it, instead of you just being able to guarantee they either miss or hit ur dh. That's the whole point, because those situations should have counterplay for the killers
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Oh it is, not with you but with another person like you
It happened with DH and this post proves it
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Can't wait till the patch where survivors start with a hook state already used
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🤓
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This post only proving that it happened w dh is fine by me, there's much more than 1 problem in this game
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Also for the last 2 points, if u think the killer's gonna hit u and they don't, that's ur fault and u should've not dhd then. If predicting something like that is too hard for u then simply don't use the perk
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Just stop with this nonsense already. Not everything should have immediate counterplay. I am not asking to nerf deadlock, because there's nothing I can do to unblock my gens but wait it out. I am not complaining about jolt kicking multiple gens on smaller map AND providing 8% regression on all of them without any reasonable counterplay but "win your chase or find a locker". I am not asking to nerf sloppy, because there's no way around it and it will always make my heals take longer and so on and so forth.
Killers have some good tools, survivors have some good tools. Stop trying to nerf everything to the ground that is not helpful to your main role only.
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Good for u 👍btw the counterplay to jolt and sloppy is not getting hit/downed, and even beyond that for jolt it's going into a locker lol. + You could apply this logic to the most busted perk in the game. Everything is fine bc everyone has good tools! Like stop that makes zero sense. ++ Not everything should have immediate counterplay but everything with an insanely powerful effect should have counterplay or a prerequisite, especially when there's other things that do have them and are weaker overall...like dh. +++ I don't have a main role :) I also wanted stbfl nerfed but ig disagreeing with a dbd take isn't possible unless u sprinkle in some x main accusation!!
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Ok. I can say the same. Lithe has counter - just deny vaults and you are golden (you said "just win chase" it's the same thing). Sprint - just get him when he's exhausted and he needs to be exhausted to reasonably move thru the map. Overcome - just use expose stuff or one-hit killers. Deadhard - I don't even bother as it has so many counterplays... But the simplest one - just tunnel and hit him during basekit BT.
Also sprinting perks have "insane" value of making extra 6m distance (+50% speed above normal for 3s on average). Like WOW. Whole 6m. Such an insane effect. That definitely needs a huge counterplay - like add 1 hook state immediately after usage of any sprint perk to the survivor (not even counting that you have perks to turn it off if those 6m is such a huge problem for you)....
DH got such a huge nerf already, that it's not even used now much. And I presume those numbers will even go down a little more. It's totally bonkers someone is still not satisfied even if you don't see the perk in most lobbies now (with it's currently stable 7% usage according to nightlight).
Also. STBFL is no longer problem. It's earned perk and has healthy counterplay. The only possible nerf to it would be giving info to soloQ the perk is in play (say after 4th stack is accumulated). After that the perk is perfectly fair.
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I said what I said about jolt and sloppy to make the point that they have actually earned prerequisites, unlike lithe which is literally just fast vaulting a window, or sb which is literally just running. You could say what you want but reality is fast vaulting a window is not hard to make happen in the damn slightest. And don't even get me started on the point w overcome lmao, 2 hits is the norm. Dh was nerfed in the wrong way bc it didn't address the actual problems with it, just made it worse for what it already wasn't insane for and still unfair for what made it unfair.
6m is in fact insane value. Not only is it pure distance, which already is incredibly valuable with how viable holding W is, but it also takes 7 seconds to catch up. That's 21 seconds that accumulatively goes towards gens, and 28 meters further to basically guarantee safety, both with zero prerequisite.
Stbfls counterplay is not healthy, but this thread isn't even about it, so idc to get into it
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Use perk if it's such a huge problem for you. Leave the thing be for the rest of us. Sprint perks are very much required in current state of game, because creating localized deadzone is so damn easy. To counter it and make chases possible, there is a need to be able to move out of the deadzone = requirement of sprint perks. No amount of new threads from you about this topic will change this.
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Same argument can be used with otr and tunneling or corrupt and endgame, and yet those shouldn't be necessary to counter them. Having to use a perk to counter something like sb lithe overcome is ridiculous. And quite honestly, I just severely doubt that. Most maps are really safe and not to mention windows can't be broken like pallets, they're not necessary at all
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