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Refined thoughts on STBFL
Sup, I made a thread about STBFL already but I'm doing it again w some updated thoughts ig :) :) :)
Stbfl absolutely has problems despite the echo chamber of "Stbfl is fine as is." I wanna go over some problems and dispute some counterpoints:
- Makes camping and tunneling insanely easy
When ur at max stacks of this perk and u camp, there is basically nothing a team can do to get the unhook without trading. It's not bubba level stuff, but I think it's definitely trickster level stuff. Even if every survivor cooridnates so it's not the guy that unhooks that trades, it becomes so easy to catch up that it's realisitcally impossible to get everyone out unless the hook is directly next to an open gate. Combine that with it making body blocking irrelevant and yeah, camp with this perk in endgame and it's pretty much a free 1k. Even outside of endgame, it just makes the basekit bt completely worthless. Camping and tunneling obviously need to be addressed in their own regard, but if fixes for those don't decently address stbfl used for those purposes, then the perk itself would need to be changed.
- Hurts solos disproportionately
The obsession should just be notified of this perk, say when a token is gained. This really shouldn't be controversial but it probably is. Similarly to tunneling solo also needs buffs itself but even moreso than previously said, this perk is still a problem in that regard. Unless you add like ingame voice chat, there's no real solo buff you could give that would let the obsession know stbfl is being used once another survivor is made aware, so a change to the perk itself is what's needed there IMO.
- Pretty much unstoppable at max stacks
Once you get to 8 stacks, the counterplay from the obsession becomes so shockingly meaningless. Hit them once, you're at 6 stacks, which is effectively one stack lost since the very next hit you get will bring it up to 7, and will have the cooldown reduction of 7 stacks. Literally down the obsession, and you've only lost 4. This is not hard to recover from whatsoever because of how the perk allows you to snowball m1s into m1s which all gain tokens. It's not a fair trade deal imo considering the obsession is literally going down for it.
- M2s denying counterplay make all these problems even worse
This perk is meant to have counterplay. Not just because of the 2 stack loss being part of the perk, but because this perk is STUPIDLY powerful at 8 stacks. I agree that encouraging chase is a good thing, and m2s invalidating the counterplay allows that to happen, but it isn't the standard. The perk was made with the intention of ignoring the obsession, as it's literally called "save the best for last," and shouldn't only not discourage chase when used on demo, slinger, pig, and whoever else. If you want chase to be encouraged, you should have a problem with this perks entire design. EDIT: Let me add, this allows you to literally tunnel the obsession out of the game and retain max stacks, that is so, so stupid
- Shouldn't be held in limbo as a bandaid for m1 killers being weak
"But m1 killers need it" ok, then buff them. Why should they only be viable when using this perk? That is a terrible way to balance things. Ppl seem to hold stbfl on a pedestal of untouchability because m1 killers need it even though it's a terrible way to balance them, especially since killers like demo or slinger don't "need" it whatsoever and yet they benefit from that m2 counterplay denial nonsense.
Suggestion:
- No longer lose tokens when hitting the obsession with a basic attack
- Lose all tokens when the obsession is put into the dying state (perhaps only when via direct killer attack or whatever)
- The obsession is notified when a token is gained
Replacing the obsession hitting counterplay with downing kills three birds with one stone. Removes the counterplay denial that m2 killers have, doesn't force the killer into completely ignoring the obsession, and makes the perk much more managable at max stacks. The more realistic counterplay also makes this easier to deal with when being used for camping and tunneling.
Oh, and I'm expecting some really, really unoriginal comments, let me go over some of those with even more unoriginal responses :D
"Survivor main" I think sb lithe and overcome should be nerfed
"It's a chase perk" I don't care, it has problems
"STBFL is fine as is" No it's not
"You'll never be satisfied until every perk is nerfed to the ground" I'll be satisfied when problematic perks aren't :)
"But I need it on my (weak killer)" I don't even understand why I got this comment when I said m1 killers should be buffed last time, but congrats on crutching on it ig
And yeah idk prolly some other annoying stuff like that
Comments
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STBFL is not a problem. Many killers can already camp/tunnel effective without it and it's hardly an unstoppable perk. Some people really don't want to learn to play around things.
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And those killers are also a problem, thanks for the whataboutism tho ig. Also uh no, I have no problem learning how to play around things, sometimes it just isn't possible, as I already explained!
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To me, the perk should lose tokens if the obsession loses a health state by any means. The perk is only strong on m2 killers, and m1 killers, weaker in the game in general, can't even use the perk properly.
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exactly crazy to me you could say this and someone could unironically respond with "but the weaker killers need it! you can't nerf it" when that change is completely irrelevant to the weakest killers
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Honestly, even when I knew the killer had this perk, I tried to force him to beat me to lose tokens (was demogorgon)
But every time I try he use power or ignores me
Even when he was carrying the survivor on his shoulder I came to try to make him lose the tokens
He drop the survivor and uses his power to knock me out
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What a mad layer cake. Have to pray the obsession knows about the perk, have to pray they give a crap, have to literally go down for it to matter if the killers already at high stacks, has to not be killer that can just m2 to keep stacks, and after all that theyll prolly still camp in endgame and guarantee a kill...
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I was obsession
I agree with you, some killers are impossible to force him to lose tokens
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"But m1 killers need it" ok, then buff them.
Sure, let's do all that in one patch and I won't care about STBFL nerf.
Let's buff Deathslinger, Clown, Doctor, Pig, Demogorgon, Trapper, Sadako, Nightmare, Knight, Skull Merchant, Nemesis.
Then you can remove, or rework STBFL for all I care. Good luck with that.
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I mean yeah all good things, except deathslinger demogorgon nemesis and knight don't need buffs or stbfl
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Why make a second thread on the topic if you already know most people think it's fine? At this point it's just spam, especially if you're just going to dismiss any dissenting opinions as "an echo chamber."
Most people disagree with you. Get over it.
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Deathslinger doesn't need STBFL? That's new. Unless you want to play each game with Bayshore's Cigar, you need STBFL.
M1 attacks (perks) is only thing he has going compare to other ranged killers.
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This is a feedback page, I am giving feedback :) I'm allowed to continue giving feedback when still nothing has changed and I have some more thoughts about it, and two posts over the course of like a month is not spam lmao. I don't care that most ppl disagree cuz I disagree w them too, and I think this perk absolutely needs to be changed. And I'm not just dismissing anyone who disagrees as an echo chamber, I'm just saying there is an echo chamber when so many ppl just say the perk is fine without any thought. I'll get over ppl disagreeing w me but I won't get over this perk bc it is problematic. Seriously just grow up
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Stbfl defenders have good or constructive points challenge 😬
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The perk is fine. If you really want to make it a little more fair, give warning to soloQ that the perk is in play, but only after a few tokens already accumulated (because soloQ has no way to know if they didn't see the chase or don't find killer's behavior odd - which in some games never comes to play). No other change is needed.
Also if it's killer capable of M2 (and you can't dodge it), just bodyblock when killer picks someone up. If he drops, it probably means he traded 1 hook for another + new chase time + harder hits with only M2's.
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You could still tunnel the obsession out with max stacks and could still pretty consistently retain max stacks once you get there. Not to mention the camping and tunneling issues which are still there depending on how camping and tunneling are changed
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So killer managed to get to max stacks -> 8 hits and you worry about tunneling obsession? really?
What a broken perk, you only need to get 7 hooks...
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As was mentioned above. You can't "tunnel obsession out" quickly enough, if you need to first ignore her until you accumulate all the stacks. I am very much convinced the perk is fair - because it has counterplay. Sure if there wasn't obsession part, then it would be broken. Right now? It's strong, but fair perk
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Ok fair enough, you can't hard tunnel them out but you can still easily take care of them with m2s and you can kill them while maintaining 8 stacks, which is just nuts. And there is still the problem where once you get to max stacks in general it's just unrealistic to counter, a whole down only bringing you down to 4 stacks is ridiculous imo, and can easily be less w m2s bc taking hits at hook isn't always gonna be a viable option especially with how little it's worth it really
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And the m2s also make it from being your choice whether or not to counter it to being forced to take hits at hook or else you'll just get chased, where with killers without m2s will have to ignore you or lose stacks. Really if taking hits at hook was sooo common then I see no reason m2s losing stacks would be so crazy or impactful
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ALSO at hook the killer only needs to hit you once to lose collision and then hook the person, and taking only one hit as mentioned before does absolutely nothing when the killers already at 8 stacks
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1, don't let him 8 stack 2, that's the idea - you take 2 stacks and you run away 3, you can dodge M2's much easier then M1's. Taking hits for teammates works also really well and that one IS common in higher level...
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1 much easier said than done, you can't just ensure that 2 like I said already means nothing when killers already at max 3 sure but killer could just get good and not miss, like it's not hard 3.5 if u try to just take hits for teammates they can still just m2 u there I don't at all see what's stopping them
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yes they do. they also needs buffs individually speaking but BVHR doesn't do those.
survivors health-states and second-chance is way too strong in dbd for base-kit killers. for example a single endurance or extra health-state is 20 seconds of killer catch-up. 20 second of running forward for killer is 40(~46 total) meters of distance. Most maps are like 120 sqrtm^2 so this is like 33% of the map in running distance. If I as killer commit to 6 total chases where a survivor is healthy, I am wasting 120 seconds of total time just walking forward. 120 second across 3 survivors efficiency on generators is almost 4.5 generators worth of progression. The total time you need to finish all 5 gens is 2 minute and 30 seconds across 3 survivors being perfectly efficient. You can lose nearly 100% of killer generator objective from just holding-W from health-states. This is not taking account into window looping and pallet looping/pallet breaking.
I do not get how you are expecting killer to NOT tunnel when the killer is losing 100% of their objective in 6 chases from running forward. Spreading hooks between 4 players where average is 2/2/2/1 with +1/-1 on total hook count amounts to 6-8 hooks and then killer also needs 3 extra hooks to fulfill hook kill condition of 3 kills. total amount is 10-11 hooks. If killer is losing to just hold-w from health-states from 6 hooks, then there is no way that killer can fulfill 10-11 hooks when survivor is playing optimally.
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In my opinion, survivor's sprint burst needs to be nerfed to 1.25-1.4 from 1.8 and killer hit recovery needs to be buffed across board to roughly 2.25 seconds. STBFL should be nerfed accordingly from 5% per stack to 2% per stack which should amount to 1.9 hit recovery at max. Hold-W from health-states should not make killer instant-lose and total time for hold-w should be around 10-14 seconds at max. Not 24 seconds like pre-6.1 and not current 20 seconds. The only form of gaining large distances should be exhaustion perks and even these are heavily debated topic as many players also want to nerf exhaustion perks as well. The bad players that try to 360 killers and the survivor with inefficient movement will go down in 5 seconds. The weaker the player is at looping the faster they should go down. I am sure it will look like nerfed decisive strike where people go down 5 second after hitting decisive strike but this is how killer down potencial should be when the opponent plays poorly.
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As a 'STBFL main' player, my few concerns are just:
- obs should be aware of the perk, esp in soloq ... at the very least when 2-4 stacks are achieved (could be diff levels for different tiers)
- 'stacks/2' - so max 4 stacks - around the hooks, weakening the camping ability with the perk
I am fine with everything else, tbh
If there is another problem, it is a more general issue than the perk itself
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sounds alr
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