For those who think Wraith is still a bad killer
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Wraith has many tiles in the game where he is powerless against a good survivor. It's really that simple.
Take the same two players and swap out Nurse or Blight and you have a completely different result where the Survivor is at the mercy of the killer instead.
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I've noticed something about the DBD community, they are very single minded when it comes to "winning" and "strenght". All the time they compare every killer to "nurse or blight" because those killers can win, quickly and effectively.
Have you ever considered that Wraith can be as effective at winning as a nurse or blight but the only difference is, his playstyle does not allow him to do it quickly?
When i win, it's almost always during final gen, but that's because I'm purposefully setting up the entire map to my design. I'm meticulously remove all good pallet and all good loops and trying to move people towards 3 gen. Even if they don't by the time they get to that point in the game, my build is at its absolute strongest. No pallets, max stacks of STBFL, it's when I go in for the kills.
Like not everything in this game can be compared to two killers with a single quick and aggressive playstyle. Other killers have other ways of being played that are just as effective, it doesn't mean it isn't strong if it isn't the "same".
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Why are you getting so worked up about it? If you enjoy him, play him. If you think he's strong, great. If others don't, well so be it. Personally I think he's kinda weak. He's okay at hit and run though.
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Wraith is actually really strong against low MMR survivors, he requires specific knowledge to counter rather than just playing against him like every other killer.
That said, he falls off -very- quickly against better survivors because he's easy to punish once you know how.
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Had a wraith 4k my team the other day and he didn’t hook a survivor for the second time until he had hooked us all once. He never camped, slugged, or returned to hooks to chase the unhooking survivor.
I think most killers don’t have the patience to actually learn how to chase survivors effectively.
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-"Have you ever considered that Wraith can be as effective at winning as a nurse or blight but the only difference is, his playstyle does not allow him to do it quickly?"
Have you considered that you're wrong? Watch the streamers who play this game professionally as their job. Two immediately come to mind who have between them almost 20,000 hours of experience. Against someone who is an incredibly good looper you cannot get certain players at certain tiles. It's really that simple. If they can't do it "quickly or easily" then you probably can't either unless you are some 2,000 hour secret wraith champion.
But let's be brutally honest as well : The best wraith in the world is going to lose in a tournament against just mediocre Blight or Nurse players. The best nurse/blight players in the world could probably go afk for 20 seconds and end the game better than the wraith.
-"I'm meticulously remove all good pallet and all good loops and trying to move people towards 3 gen."
Tell me things I have not been doing since 2016? You cannot force pallets faster than a good looper wants to give them to you.
Also let's take a look back at a time when Wraith was better than he his now. This is a time when wraith had a super lunge out of cloak which was removed from the game.
This is someone who has played wraith since 2016 and absolutely loved the character.
Look how easily wraith is shut down by SWF. Blight or Nurse in this situation could handle that team.
The bottom line is : wraith is not a competitive killer. What are his assets?
- Enhanced movement while cloaked - but he cant attack so the move speed is of questionable value when compared to killers that can attack directly out of their movement.
- Stealth - which does nothing vs SWF and does very little in general thanks to the HUD telling everyone when someone is in a chase.
- Limited addons that can do a few things like find people hiding or monitor gen progress. Fundamentally speaking he is an M1 killer and you can't change that aspect of his kit. Even super fast pallet breaking addons just dont work.
- Wraith has the M1 limitation so any time a god pallet is thrown the chase is over until the pallet is broken.
Compare that to Nurse /Blight
- Enhanced movement speed that can be used immediately to attack.
- Strong Anti loop (vs none for the wraith)
- High lethality because fast movement+strong anti loop.
- They have limited 4v1 potential because they can end chases so quickly unlike almost every other killer in the game.
The Wraith which might as well be a rock and Nurse/Blight is an Ak-47. Which do you want to use to kill survivors with? You make the call. You could become the best wraith in the world and you'll be stuck in a place where a mediocre Nurse/Blight does things seemingly effortlessly that you will never do because you chose the wrong killer platform.
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is there a reason you quote responsed me about my criticism that all players do is compare to nurse/blight only to compare wraith to nurse/blight, quite a lot. Like you didn't even address what i said.
For the love of god, I'm not stupid, i never compared to nurse/blight, i said people underestimate just how good a wraith CAN be, and often tier list him lower than they should.
All you people are so butthurt by the idea that any killer you don't respect as strong, can actually be.
If i see any more responses here that have anything more to say than nurse/blight comparisons i'll read them otherwise it's dribble.
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If a wraith player manage to do this, either your team was throwing or the map spawned without any pallets, because looping an m1 killer for a long time is easy af, if he went for all those chases and all gens were not powered ,either survivors had no resources or they were sitting ducks that stayed still once the chase started.
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-"Like you didn't even address what i said."
You : Waith is strong.
Me : no he's not here's video proof.
The problem is that your definition of good raises the question : good relative to what. Wraith is good when compared to Trapper with no addons. Does that mean anything ? No.
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Wraith is pretty good. Probably B/B+ tier.
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Idk about at least half the comments on here. - But darn, people are real hellbent on making blanket statement about Wraith. Imo he's one of the killers where the loadout and map really matter.
Comparing basekit Wraith on a large/resourceful map to clapper-swift hunt Wraith on Léry's is just not possible. They could just as well be two different killers.
Which one should be the baseline? Idk, probably depends on who you ask.
To me the one I see the most by a landslide is the one that is representative for how I see wraith. And that is the Clapper-Swift Hunt Wraith on Léry's with Lethal + some other aura reading OR Corrupt + Deadlock, then usually Sloppy and Fearmonger.
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My statement was direct and clear. Wraith is good against low to average-skilled players, and can hold his own against higher-skilled players as well.
Players do call Huntress (and Wesker; it was like the topic for weeks after his release, after his nerf, after his etc) weak. You seem to be living in some sort of alternate realm where Nurse & Blight aren’t perceived as the litmus for a killer’s strength.
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how are you p39 and still dont know hatch can only spawn on the back side of shack
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Tiers don’t mean shite. Just because you load in with Nurse or Blight =/= automatic win.
It’s not just skill either. Maps have a part in the equation. So does where the killer searches in the first minute, etc etc
Just find the killer you enjoy and play it. Any good player will win most games using any killer.
Once I get to p100 on Twins I may actually start leveling up Wraith myself.
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Wraith is fun to play, one the biggest misconceptions with him which might explain this whole debacle of a thread, is that because he is an easy killer to learn/play against, that there isn't an err of difficulty in actually playing him. But what I've learned is, he is a complex killer if you wanna actually play at higher difficulty games and best better survivors, his addons are helpful but more important is his perks and you're playstyle. He's one of those killers where a chase committed too long or one or two missed swings could make the difference in a game, but once you kill that first survivor, the game can swing heavily in your favor. Probably why a lot of them choose to tunnel, I just don't have fun doing that.
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With those builds I'd be surprised if any killer would be able to lose
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Wraith is strong in certain situations. He has decent mobility while cloaked, and can be annoying with the bodyblocks. However, he is not as effective as the nurse nor possesses the mobility of blight or Billy. Hence, he excels at small maps, where he can apply pressure in a better way. In chase, the said bodyblocks and the speed can help a lot, but he is a m1 killer, with everything that implies. Conclussion: not the worst choice but there are far better killers to choose.
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Is it possible in this thread to move on from the discussion of blight and nurse, yes they are the god killers, the perfect killers, the mummy daddy killers. No one is or has ever been trying to compare Wraith to them except to let everyone know that there is no comparison. This thread was intended to discuss that wraith can be more effective than people give him credit for, even against good teams, even as an m1 killer, even without tunneling, in some cases even without addons, and yes, even on any map.
The onus here is the player who plays them and the build they use, I don't care what addons you use, without the right build to assist you from getting overly looped or from taking forever to get downs, or protect gens, it's all not gonna help. With the right build, my whole point was they can be a difficult killer to beat.
If you REALLY wanna compare them to blight/nurse, here is a better one, a wraith doesn't end a game quickly against good survivors, those killers do. A wraith's way of winning is meticulously removing strategic pallets, forcing injuries/heals, forcing 3 gen, slowly but surely getting one survivor near deathhook so by the time final gen rolls around, you have the anti-loop and anti-heal capabilities to now use your power way more effectively to secure the kill. With that kill you can grasp hold of the gens and slowly edge the other survivors towards death. Does it always work, noooooo. Does it work though, yes, even against good teams, even against good loopers.
Will a wraith often have a decent shot at beating the top 1% of players, not more than a blight or nurse, no one needs to keep bringing that up.
My whole point was a wraith is more useful than some people realize, that was it. But you are all viewing them the wrong way. To me there is no such thing as a quick game ender wraith, a good one, a really good one, takes their time, and sets the game up to their advantage, slowly but surely.
Please, enough already with the blight/nurse comparison's its getting old, we get it, they good killer, others bad killers. 🙄
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If you think a wraith with only one slowdown is unstopable you will flip to know what the actually good killers can do.
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Most stupidness thing they ever could have done. It was so nice that when they think they gonna get a free hit , just drop a flashbang so he know to back up and stops sneak tactics now almost everyday I get 5+ wraiths and its so stupid and annoying and EVERYONE of them run nurses +sloppy sheesh. At least let us be able to go through him if he is cloaked to compensate the lightburn being gone. I dont even care that its gone from nurse/artist because artist birds still can be counter in lockers and lightburning a nurse was like a 1 in million chance. Oh and take away silent bell then.
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Silent bell is useless, I never run it, the only way it can be useful is if you also run the brown addon that suppresses terror radius after uncloak, good swf's will still see a wraith approaching silent bell or not.
Also lightburn was a mechanic that essentially bullied wraiths, nurses rarely got affected by it, and artist and hag, that had nothing to do with light burn, that was just flashlight effects. I wouldn't have even minded the mechanic, if the dev's could have at least justified keeping it, but they went through nearly 30 new killer releases without one being subject to the mechanic. Underutilized mechanics should not be kept in any game, not just DBD, especially when it just serves to make an already struggling killer worse.
It's like imagine if Trapper could no longer step in his own traps, while you could argue that it would make him stronger, he's already the weakest killer. He has an addon to avoid that but it would be a good buff to trapper to just make that basekit.
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double-post, can't delete it, nice.
Post edited by BloodBird on0 -
They are delusional then.
Nurses base kit is broken. Blight's power is pretty much exponential with his add-ons. People saying huntress and especially wesker are weak in another world.
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Builds, BUILDS, B U I L D S, plural meaning of more than 1, not referring to just 1, a word or form that expresses more than one,
plu·ral ˈplu̇r-əl. : of, relating to, or constituting a class of grammatical forms usually used to denote more than one or in some languages more than two. : relating to, consisting of, or containing more than one or more than one kind or class. a plural society
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My bad, the let me fix it, if you think that builds with few slowdown are unnstopabble then you will flip when you see what actually good builds can do.
As I see you are speaking about the type of builds OP is running so I mentioned here those types of builds.
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Or survivors' builds since they can only have multible builds instead of the killer that can have only one build but you know
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I've done extensive build testing on Wraith, I've determined, at least for me, slowdown perks are a waste of time, more often than not, all it does is make you either have to waste time going to the gens to kick them too frequently or only offering slight delays but as long as there are 4 survivors by final gen they will get one.
The better strategy for Wraith at least (and do remember I don't tunnel or slug if I can help it), is to remove loops, keep people injured and maximize on cooldowns. In that effort I have even recently adjusted my build getting rid of deadlock entirely in place of Spirit Fury.
The logic here is not that I care necessarily about if I hit someone after it procs, but more so by people knowing I have it at all and using the addon shadow dance, they might start to pre-drop pallets allowing me to remove them faster, or they might choose not to drop in which case I'll just go through for the swing to injure or they do drop when I go through and I'll take the stun and the pallet and eventually have spirit fury which WILL help me get that hit. The biggest "slowdown" top a Wraith game is how you can actually deal with pallets, I've realized that allowing survivors to think they are safe to keep using them is what makes games so hard to win.
:)
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If thats the case, then you may have a point but I don't see that many weak perks on their end, maybe the double boon, and maybe wiretap since OP is playing wraith, but I really don't see any meme perks ran by survivors that may cause a defeat on first instance.
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Wraiths hate you because your meghead 🤣
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Or I dont know.. he was a good killer? Maybe he took the time to find a build that worked well for him and he got really good at wraith because he refused to camp or tunnel? We did gens. We looped well. He was just better. I hate when people act like the survivors MUST be bad because someone did well on a killer that isn't seen as good. It's dumb. Most killers don't take the time to actually learn to chase well.
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If you looped well and did gens you should not have lost against wraith, an m1 killer, a good looper will waste at the very least 60 seconds against an m1 killer, maybe 30 if there are deadzones. So taking the average of 45 s, and taking into account each survivors will get chased 2 times since he didn't tunnel in the first chase 3 gens had half their progress done, later in the game assuming every time someone is being chased and someone on hook then each chase half a gen should be done, in 8 chases 4 gens should be done, the max he can get is a 2k, mind you we are using 45 seconds in chase which is not what a good survivor can do against a puny m1 killer and im talking time without exhaustions perk applied.
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I'm done even responding to these dumb comments, Wraith is bad, so says you, good, hope to never play against me and find out than 😉
Post edited by BloodBird on0 -
Have you heard of the streamer/youtuber Scott Jund? He mained Wraith for a while and had his largest winstreak with him. He had a series of videos about, I suggest you check them out if you doubt that Wraith is viable.
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I'm not sure why you are commenting on a thread from over a month ago (Mods problem) but no one cares about what Scott does with Wraith. Someone who plays the game for a living could never represent the player base as a whole. ANY killer can be played at a high level in the right hands. Does not mean the killer is not weaker than most. I have fantastic results with Trapper. You don't see me claiming he is strong as it would sound ridiculous.
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With Wraith, the usual strategy of commiting to chase / tunneling really doesn't work well. Wraith's antiloop is rather weak (it's good at very short or very long loops and that's it), so trying to tunnel a survivor as they loop around the map feels awful. I think that's why a lot of people discredit Wraith, if you try to tunnel with him you'll be miserable.
In my experience, with Wraith you really want to 3-gen or 4-gen. Because Wraith is so fast (double speed when cloaked), the gens don't have to be right next to each other. It's far more important that each individual gen be far from a reusable window, and have poor visibility (so the survivors can't pre-run). If you keep going back to the same 3-4 gens, and the survivors have to throw a pallet each time to prevent a hit, it won't be long before the gens are in a giant deadzone.
The main problem with Wraith is that good SWFs will eat you alive. They'll tell each other your location, so even with poor visibility they will pre-run. They will organize quick and effective heals, so they can jump back on the gens soon after being injured. And if you ever commit to a down, they'll 3-man one of your protected gen with Prove Thyself and get it completed before you can come back.
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I was specifically responding to DBDVulture. He's the one who said that the proof that Wraith sucks is that DBD professional streamers don't like him. Here I pointed out that a very well known streamer (Scott Jund) has a great opinion of Wraith, which contradicts his argument.
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That's weird?
I received a notification that you quoted me. Otherwise I would of had no idea. I noticed a little bit ago that your first comment was on here twice. Perhaps one was accidently responding to me. Either way after a certain time frame has passed the thread should not be commented on. At least that how it used to be.
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Well, seeing as how this thread got revived apart from my own actions and it is my original thread I will simply weigh in here real quick.
Last period it took me 72 games to reach Irri 1, however I had yet to adjust my build to what it is now till mid-way through that period. After rank reset, I did not choose to keep stats but I have relative numbers for my results.
Yesterday I reached Irri 1 again. It took me no less than 50 and no more than 60 games to get there this time. I can literally count on one hand the amount of games where I received a depip/killed no one and did not even have many games where I safety'd either.
Unlike last period and despite what the people in this thread have been saying, I can think of almost no games I played where I felt winning was impossible, even in the first few days where all the sweats and high rank players get mixed in. Furthermore, like I've stated before I did most of my winning without tunneling, slugging or camping, but I'm not above it. And against these "Coordinated swf's that would destroy me" sure the games were hard, but by forcing them into 3 gen and hard tunneling or slugging them, I won MORE of those games, than I lost. If I have to tunnel or slug to win I will and I CAN, I don't care what team it is.
I will say at higher and higher levels of play it becomes harder to play Wraith without addons, that's fair, however I can win on almost any map, the only maps thus far I find to be just a terrible experience (where I have to tunnel early on) are Garden of Joy, Shelter Woods and Haddonfield, I also don't like Midwich that much funnily enough but I can win on it without tunneling.
That all being said, I know Wraith's limitations, will I win against top 0.01% of swfs, no probably not, but what kind of dumb argument would that even be to state whether a killer or a player had skill/potential if they can't beat EVERY single team they play against.
I am not going to go into detail as to why I am so successful at this time with Wraith and what it is people are misunderstanding about the way I at least play him. Unless people are "genuinely" interested without a sense of arrogance about it.
I will end with this though. For those who do doubt a good wraith player. I can say with certainty that as of this moment, I have been able to maintain an 80-85% win rate where most of the time I do not even tunnel, slug or camp to win.
You wanna call me low mmr, or baselessly call me or wraith bad or claim without playing comp teams you can't call yourself good, it doesn't matter to me, at the end of the day I am winning, consistently without tunneling with a killer that everyone calls #########, and that's good enough for me 😉
*One last note, while I don't care too much for the competitive scene, if I did want to try that realm, I even have addons I can confidently use if restricted to yellow/brown, strong combo addons I'm saying.
Anyway, continue to rip me and Wraith apart at your leisure just wanted to provide this little update :)
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Here is a recent video of a casual Wraith main destroying a competitive "pro" SWF:
His strategy was the one I recommended: basically an early 3-gen, with Jolt + Eruption + Call of Brine to control & regress them. Really long and boring playstyle, but eventually the map was cleared of pallets and the Wraith won.
Post edited by Merudo on1 -
But it can be true, how can you say otherwise? The devs choose to hide it for the sake of "toxicity" Me perosnally just think it saves them dealing with "i shouldn't be versing this person" type threads. Can't complain about mmr if you can't see it.
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Here's my thoughts on this, I am quite familiar with a build such as this, before it's nerf, I used the eruption meta to hold 7 gens consistently. I am also familiar with the slow burn war of attrition playstyle he employed and have done so many times myself, it will work and people are not familiar with it generally. I however, feel myself at least would be more confident with all-seeing spirit and silent bell or perhaps swift hunt in this context. And with bamboozle and STBFL in place of some of his perks and adding in POP, I feel like I could do well in such a game as these. With all-seeing there is no waste of POP, I know exactly where to take it provided I have the hook for it, of course, if restricted to lesser addons I can use shadow dance + swift hunt or blind warrior mixtures.
I will say this as much, people who doubt the builds I say work so well, you will encounter a similar experience as these players did when you go against me, I use a build/strategy most are unfamiliar with and this is just evidence of what I've been saying that it can work. It's a slow burn as you can see, but the pressure and control over the game you can exert as a Wraith, people often aren't aware of how much they've screwed themselves before it's too late.
But either way, fun video, I no longer expect people to see Wraith's potential, in fact I kind of prefer people don't at this point, as it makes the element of shock and surprise that much more effective when I play :)
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Agreed. Nurse and Blight absolutely aren’t the only strong killers in this game. While those two may be the strongest there are still quite a few more strong killers.
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btw call of brine regress 3.75 additional seconds over 60 seconds compared to normal kicking, not sure if you care but just a reminder.
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I know call of brine is better than normal kicking, but here is something that even Otzdarva and the other commentator neglected to realize what was happening in that game that no doubt the Wraith main knew all too well he was doing (I only watched the first game in full mind you). As a wraith your ability to down people is limited early game, but your ability to INJURE people is HIGH, especially with good swf's like that refusing to use pallets. This is why for a long time my build didn't even have gen regression, because the more people are injured, that is your gen regression, even with regular kick over COB. It now takes two ppl to heal each other once medkits are depleted, and if they don't heal, especially with fearmonger in play, they risk going down at a gen. It's a double benefit, either they lose gen progress by having to stop to heal, or they risk being downed by getting caught repairing a gen while injured, possibly hence why those survivors choose healing over gens.
Now that I use pop, that slow process is sped up once I get the occasional hook, as the gens that get close get destroyed by it.
COB/Eruption is a valid method sure, but not 100% necessary except maybe against super sweaty gen rushers perhaps. But I'll long maintain that for Wraith, the best gen-regression is injuries, I try to injure ppl as much as possible, I'd rather everyone be injured than even getting one person downed. Cause that's food for later. You watch that video you will see how far he commits just for the injury than runs off.
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I play the wraith with decent success using lethal pursuer, nowhere to hide, jolt, and lightborn. For addons I like the blood family and the bone clapper. While I'm searching I'll ring the bell periodically and they don't know where I'm coming from.
If I run the iri spirit addon I'll run pop goes the weasel with it.
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One suggestion for you, if what you use is working than great, but you're wasting a perk slot using lethal pursuer if you're also using All-Seeing Spirit, since you don't need early use of aura when you know what gen they are on anyway.
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Just because you destroyed a team with MMR off doesn't make wraith good
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The play style used in the video is definitely efficient in regular matches. It requires a decent amount of coordination from the survivors (too much for the average solo queue team) and a lot of players don't have the patience to play against such a boring strategy. Personally, i would rather be hard tunneled than have a long match against this build.
However there is a bit of context missing from your post:
- The team on the first 2 matches had high ping . Good survivor gameplay relies on good timing and moment to moment decision making that you can't do reliably with ping that awful. The Wraith got easy hits that would not have happened without the ping issue.
- The Killer got some good maps/gen spread for their play style of defending a 3 Gen all game long.
- He did not "destroy" the survivors. You make it sound like it was a stomp.
- The final match was against a team with no restrictions and good ping on the best map for that strategy and the wraith lost it pretty badly.
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This is why I prefer my build to the guy in the videos, personally though I no longer care whether people give a wraith any credit, I prefer no one respect him, so when I get into a game with someone, they misjudge the situation.
One thing I will say tho, is my build its at is strongest during final gen, i have many games where i lose 3 gens in 5 minutes, I still win by the end. Its so easy to patrol 3 gens when the loops are all dead.
Btw the point of this thread isn't to compare Wraith to the top 3 killers, simply to show how far you can take him with the right build and strategy, its dangerous to write off any killer or player from a single glance/thought tho, it shows how uncreative a player is who would think simple looping or the same strategy will work in every situation against every killer. If it did, this game would be painfully boring.
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He is maybe the best killer in the game considering the "amount of skill ceiling - results" ratio. His power is very simple and easy to use and you can stomp very easily below-average survivor players and also he have good map pressure, however against decent survivors he isn't that strong.
Tier B- or C+ killer (being the S tier the top tier).
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