The facecamping changes were needed... However...

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YukariTheAlpaca
YukariTheAlpaca Member Posts: 181
edited May 2023 in Feedback and Suggestions

So what is the killer supposed to do now? How do they gain pressure? By getting downs? Yea right, usually 2-3 gens pop by your first down anyways. EVEN if you manage to get a down before 2-3 gens pop, the remaining 3 survivors not on hooks (unless someone DC'd for some reason) will usually pop said gens shortly after hooking the survivor you managed to catch.


Camping someone secured pressure, that is why killers started to do it more and more ESPECIALLY after the stall nerfs. You think it is fun to camp survivors to death? No, it is not; it is boring. I want to go out and chase, but I also want to have a chance at winning the match and potentially getting 2-4 kills.


At the highest level of play, this is the smartest strategy to do, regardless of if it is fun for anyone. Killers do not have enough time to go for 12 hook games against survivors that want to actually do their main objective efficiently. Chase time has never been the issue for good killers, it is the game length that is the issue. The earlier you eliminate a survivor from the match, the more the match slows down for the killer to chase and get downs. It isn't rocket science; then again, no one said it was.


Lets look at this mathematically. You find the first survivor at the start of the match. You are a 115 M1 killer. This means that if said survivor starts running away as soon as they hear the TR, regardless of if they even have an exhaustion perk or use pallets/windows, it will take you upwards of 30-40 seconds or more to catch up and get one hit. The killer after hitting them needs to wipe their weapon, the survivor gains the short burst of speed, and now its another 20-30 seconds for that second hit. Add another 6 to 10 seconds to hook them, and you got a minimum of 56 seconds for one down.


With how little time remaining before gens start popping, this means the killer needs to find another survivor within 34 seconds or 3 gens pop (if you do find another in this time, congrats; now only 2 gens of the 5 needed will pop, with one other gen nearly completed). THIS IS ALL ASSUMING YOU FIND SOMEONE AS SOON AS THE MATCH STARTS. You start adding the fact that survivors will utilize pallets and windows after just running away for the maximum amount of time they can, and now it could take even longer to get a down.


I get it because I play survivor as well. I hate getting camped and tunneled, but I also know what it is like on the other side of the coin. There needs to be some way for the killer to get pressure and actually be encouraged, not forced, to leave the hook and go out to hunt other survivors.

Post edited by Rizzo on
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Comments

  • JPLongstreet
    JPLongstreet Member Posts: 5,520
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    They do not balance the game around the most efficient gameplay on either side. They focus on the middling group with a thoughtful glance at the newbies. Whether that is the correct approach or not is another thread entirely. The most effective strats are also the most "boring" and "unfun" out there, and the most complained about too.

    I'm glad I'm just an ok surv and a terrible killer so I don't get the sweats too often, mostly just when backfilling occurs. Wishing the mass lobby dodging didn't happen so much though.

  • YukariTheAlpaca
    YukariTheAlpaca Member Posts: 181
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    I know that. I was just hoping that BHVR would care about the veterans of the community that actually stuck with the game for such a long time. Getting better at it and such.

  • JPLongstreet
    JPLongstreet Member Posts: 5,520
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    There seems to be almost an enjoyment penalty for those who have gotten super duper good at this game.

  • Ghoste
    Ghoste Member Posts: 2,135
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    Git gud.

  • JPLongstreet
    JPLongstreet Member Posts: 5,520
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    Sadly that's not really a viable option for us consolers. We can get ok-ish with Blight, however the camera is slower, the sticks have dead zones and input lag, and flicks unheard of.

    But Nurse on a controller with unstable frames? Nightmare fuel.

  • JPLongstreet
    JPLongstreet Member Posts: 5,520
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    Want to borrow my Xbox and give killer a go?

    You don't really need those 60 frames do you? 😜

  • JPLongstreet
    JPLongstreet Member Posts: 5,520
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    Good on you fam!

    What I'm really wondering is how tf to our Switch cousins manage...

  • Marc_go_solo
    Marc_go_solo Member Posts: 4,961
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  • JudithMorel
    JudithMorel Member Posts: 562
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    you get pressure by getting downs..... how do you not understand this?

  • Marc_go_solo
    Marc_go_solo Member Posts: 4,961
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    Everyone? Yeah, nah just you I think. I don't mind debating with people who offer a counter-argument, but trolls are pretty worthless and arguing with idiotic ones is never a win-win. You clearly have nothing of value to add other than whining so hope you don't mind me ending this little ... whatever it was ... with you.

  • Yogerman1997
    Yogerman1997 Member Posts: 374
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    i just hope, that thing is disabled after the doors has been powered, and the killer can still try to defend one kill...


    im okay if survivors can unhook themselves before that.... we know.... about some bubbas and huntress...

  • Wexton
    Wexton Member Posts: 496
    edited May 2023
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    That's the neat thing pal, we don't. Getting good on switch is practically impossible when the low poly and brightness is so bad you can barely see anything that isn't right in your face, averaging 12 frames most games doesn't help much either.

    Actually now that I think about it I've never seen an honest to God good switch player, I'm pretty average at best myself. I've seen plenty of good console players before, but switch players? Nah, I guess it just goes to show how bad the switch version is lol.

  • RoastedGarlic
    RoastedGarlic Member Posts: 532
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    God I hope that game is good. Playing killer in dbd isn't enjoyable, you're either against potatoes or gods. There isn't any in between. Its not fun to just flatten survivors and its definitely not fun to get crushed.

  • DBDVulture
    DBDVulture Member Posts: 2,437
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    I think the game will be amazing considering they already had a go at F13. They had the core game in a decent state considering DBD but they made some mistakes.

    This will be a "do over" and it should be good.

  • hailxsatanxeveryxday
    hailxsatanxeveryxday Member Posts: 913
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    What's to stop me from facecamping the hook with STBFL and just downing them again as soon as they get off of hook?

    It sounds to me like this change will result in survivors getting off the hook far faster than before, which also means I can down them and put them back on the hook quicker.

    Trying to tunnel one person out and then taking on the other three is my preferred strategy, but it really only works if survivors are super altruistic and constantly, immediately go for unhooks. Now, it will work no matter what.

    If this change goes live, the only way they can mitigate that is to give survivors basekit endurance over multiple hits for 30 seconds (which will conversely give me infinite STBFL stacks) or something else similarly completely broken and abusable.

    On the other hand, maybe it won't be so boring for the survivor. Even if they're out of the game quicker, at least they get to unhook themselves and try to escape from the killer, and it could be a success in that sense.

  • JPLongstreet
    JPLongstreet Member Posts: 5,520
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    That's not fair. It's just their perspective and their opinions. Disagree if you wish, but just dismissing anyone out of hand who gives a fig isn't helpful.

  • Thusly_Boned
    Thusly_Boned Member Posts: 2,822
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    In addition to being boring, facecamping isn't even that effective (unless you're Bubba). Proxy camping is where the money is, and this doesn't do much to address that. Basically, these changes will force noob campers to get better it, imo.

  • crogers271
    crogers271 Member Posts: 1,457
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    Lets look at this mathematically.

    I don't understand how camping helps you in this situation.

    If three gens are done/almost done, how does camping a hook actually help? Mathematically, the survivors have time to finish the two remaining gens and still get a rescue (or ignore the rescue and just leave). In that situation feels like your only chance is to find a three gen to defend (presuming you don't have a killer with an instadown ability).

  • Monlyth
    Monlyth Member Posts: 982
    edited May 2023
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    Proxy camping causes the hooked Survivor to be treated as a strategic point that encourages the Killer and Survivors to interact with each other, with room for interesting choices on both sides. When do we unhook? Where should I position myself to catch the unhooker? Is it safe for me to go patrol the nearest gens? The Killer and Survivors end up doing an intricate dance where the Killer is trying to squeeze as many hits as possible out of the unhook, and the Survivors are trying to get the unhook and get out of there without getting downed.

    Facecamping, by contrast, encourages the Killer and Survivors to ignore each other as much as possible. Do gens, Reassurance, rinse, repeat. When you're out of Reassurances, swarm the hook, and repeat the whole process again.

  • Carth
    Carth Member Posts: 1,180
    edited May 2023
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    Until we know the range it's all speculation.

    Is it 8m? 16? 24? 32? Some other value? The range will determine a LOT of things. It could even break proxy camping/be as bad for the game as insta blinds/insta heals/stun at any part of pickup = drop OR it could be completely worthless and not even deter camping at all.

  • Steakdabait
    Steakdabait Member Posts: 1,263
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    they said 16 (and how fast it fills scales with distance) in the stream

  • Steakdabait
    Steakdabait Member Posts: 1,263
    edited May 2023
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    camping makes you lose pressure and this change won't effect proxy camping or simply zoning survivors away from the hook which is an outright better strat than facecamping anyways.

    Also i will never understand why so many killer players get upset at these kinda changes with all much the average killer player states they don't want to camp but they feel forced to. If this change actually makes killer as unplayable as you believe it would then bhvr will end up buffing killer. It's about time that killers are mechanically punished if they're wasting everyone's time camping and hook trading for the entire match.

  • luvcraft
    luvcraft Member Posts: 1,230
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    I disagree. Tunnelling is usually a strong (but mean) strategy, but hook camping a SWF team means the other 3 are popping gens, and will either 99% the gates and then unhook that surv, or if they can't do that in time then that surv will proudly die on the hook so the rest of their friends could all get out.

  • luvcraft
    luvcraft Member Posts: 1,230
    edited May 2023
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    I also agree that the key here is that this mechanic is forcing killers to leave the hook, whereas a better solution would encourage killers to leave the hook. e.g. something like the survivor CAN'T be unhooked for the first 30 seconds (or whatever) after being hooked, but there's also no hook progress during that time. so the killer is guaranteed that the hooked survivor won't be rescued for 30 seconds, so they're encouraged to hunt for other survivors, and gain nothing from camping the survivor during that time (rather it's always a bad choice to do so, because the other survivors can spend that time doing gens).

  • 1ettuce
    1ettuce Member Posts: 1,141
    edited May 2023
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    Post edited by BoxGhost on
  • Crazewtboy
    Crazewtboy Member Posts: 1,259
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    The issue I have is I honestly prefer survivor more. When by myself with no one to talk to I get bored easily so killer will get stale fast. To help this issue I try to play just about every killer but I feel like when not playing Nurse, Blight, Spirit and (I know this will be debated) Billy I start the match with the odds against me. Before I never had a problem doing this, but like I mentioned before, the devs for some reason decided to nerf all the gen regression perks at the same time they nerfed healing and that really curbstomped a lot of killers in terms of pressure. I do play both sides, and I hate to be another person to complain, but I understand the frustration of killer players feeling undervalued.


    The maps play a big part in these things. You are absolutely right about that. It makes you go from starting with bad odds to worse odds. You get a large map like Ormond with a low mobility killer? Forget about that game. You get a map like the Meat Plant with a bunch of safe pallets? Hope you happen to be playing anti-loop. As far as SWF, I don't really mind that aspect. I think the most annoying part about it though is comms eliminate the need for a lot of things. You know the killer and their perks without ever encountering them, you know exactly which pallets have been used without needing Windows of Opportunity. You know which direction the killer is headed when they break chase or leave a hook or if they choose to camp. You know how many totems are left, how to decide who goes for saves/gens and much more just from talking to each other. But at the same time being able to play with your friends is what keeps survivor fun and I don't think we will ever get a change to SWF comms so that is something to get used to


    The issue with gen protection is making sure it isn't abused. If they ever did decide to implement that it would have to be done in a way that is fair so that it couldn't be taken advantage of. There is a lot of ways to argue either side honestly. The whole built in anti-tunnel is nice, but works with the assumption the killer finds someone else immediately and that the unhooked survivor doesn't immediately hop on a gen in their place and this isn't the case. So your options are to switch targets like the game wants (not beneficial against a team where everyone can run), hit the unhooked person (not beneficial) or chase them and hope they can't make it to a pallet. Regardless everyone else will be on gens and that is the issue. I'm all for a window of protection to make things more enjoyable, but I wish BHVR would consider it also isn't fun to have all gens done in a few minutes.


    Bonus mention: Pallet hitboxes have felt extra generous lately. You won't even be standing in it yet it still manages to stun youl


    I remember ages ago when the game director when to a Korean live event and played Hag on stream only to get smashed which is when they realized how bad the balance was. Thinking maybe he should play the game again sometime against a 4 man team like before and see how it goes again.

  • NerfDHalready
    NerfDHalready Member Posts: 1,451
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    you can't default to this playstyle, that shouldn't be an every game thing. also you can just watch the hook from distance and start face camping as soon as ppl start showing up. the problem *to me* mostly is heavily immersive survivors literally forcing you to control an area so they take risks. with the facecamping gone, you probably will need nowhere to hide or other reliable info perks