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The facecamping changes were needed... However...
So what is the killer supposed to do now? How do they gain pressure? By getting downs? Yea right, usually 2-3 gens pop by your first down anyways. EVEN if you manage to get a down before 2-3 gens pop, the remaining 3 survivors not on hooks (unless someone DC'd for some reason) will usually pop said gens shortly after hooking the survivor you managed to catch.
Camping someone secured pressure, that is why killers started to do it more and more ESPECIALLY after the stall nerfs. You think it is fun to camp survivors to death? No, it is not; it is boring. I want to go out and chase, but I also want to have a chance at winning the match and potentially getting 2-4 kills.
At the highest level of play, this is the smartest strategy to do, regardless of if it is fun for anyone. Killers do not have enough time to go for 12 hook games against survivors that want to actually do their main objective efficiently. Chase time has never been the issue for good killers, it is the game length that is the issue. The earlier you eliminate a survivor from the match, the more the match slows down for the killer to chase and get downs. It isn't rocket science; then again, no one said it was.
Lets look at this mathematically. You find the first survivor at the start of the match. You are a 115 M1 killer. This means that if said survivor starts running away as soon as they hear the TR, regardless of if they even have an exhaustion perk or use pallets/windows, it will take you upwards of 30-40 seconds or more to catch up and get one hit. The killer after hitting them needs to wipe their weapon, the survivor gains the short burst of speed, and now its another 20-30 seconds for that second hit. Add another 6 to 10 seconds to hook them, and you got a minimum of 56 seconds for one down.
With how little time remaining before gens start popping, this means the killer needs to find another survivor within 34 seconds or 3 gens pop (if you do find another in this time, congrats; now only 2 gens of the 5 needed will pop, with one other gen nearly completed). THIS IS ALL ASSUMING YOU FIND SOMEONE AS SOON AS THE MATCH STARTS. You start adding the fact that survivors will utilize pallets and windows after just running away for the maximum amount of time they can, and now it could take even longer to get a down.
I get it because I play survivor as well. I hate getting camped and tunneled, but I also know what it is like on the other side of the coin. There needs to be some way for the killer to get pressure and actually be encouraged, not forced, to leave the hook and go out to hunt other survivors.
Comments
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Survivors won't be happy until the Killer is forced to 12 hook every match, no matter what.
And when Killers point out the gen speeds literally don't allow a 12 hook game, the answer will be 'Skill issue'.
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Then survivors need to be prepared to face Nurse and Blight (using every tech in the book) every game. Two killers I personally hate facing and playing due to their ability to just safely ignore tiles. Killer players who don't play Nurse/Blight will either leave the game, switch sides, or just learn Nurse/Blight.
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Not true at all.
If killers underperform, they will get buffs too. Like how they got before.
Face-camping was very boring and unhealthy game design for years. It needed to go. Tunnelling should be next. And toolboxes & gen progression perks also needs to be gutted.
Unhealthy mechanics should not exist in DbD anymore.
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More and more I'm convinced that nearly a year of kicking gens has ruined the idea of 'normal' gameplay for this game.
The devs could, right now, revert ruin, tinkerer, and pop to their meta pre-6.1 states, and killers would have no idea how to use them. They'd be completely useless to someone standing at a hook, or tunneling all their attention on exactly one survivor.
It's like 'pressure' now means pressuring hooks, gens, unhooks... Anything except pressuring survivors. There's an incredible amount of posts on this forum where killers just expect survivors to stand there afk politely until you're ready to deal with them.
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As much as I agree with this, nerfing these mechanics without any compensation to allow for new strategies isn't the way to do it. Killers use these strategies for a reason. If you want to say that "players at the top level are bad for using them", well, that is just wrong. Not saying you did say this, but this is the response a lot of people give when they do not play both sides.
Again, the issue isn't with the speed of downs, it is with the short game length itself. There is no way to gain enough pressure to reliably slow the game down before the killer can get a kill. If the killer could actually slow the game down by playing well in their chases, this wouldn't be an issue.
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I mean facecamping was never a good way of getting pressure unless they were close to next stage. Proxy camping was always far better and wont be affected.
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They do not balance the game around the most efficient gameplay on either side. They focus on the middling group with a thoughtful glance at the newbies. Whether that is the correct approach or not is another thread entirely. The most effective strats are also the most "boring" and "unfun" out there, and the most complained about too.
I'm glad I'm just an ok surv and a terrible killer so I don't get the sweats too often, mostly just when backfilling occurs. Wishing the mass lobby dodging didn't happen so much though.
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I know that. I was just hoping that BHVR would care about the veterans of the community that actually stuck with the game for such a long time. Getting better at it and such.
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My belief is that face-camping promotes laziness and those killers who do often struggle as they climb up the strange MMR ladder we have because they are just not good enough. It's rarer than not to have 2-3 gens go before the first down. That's often because of either a) a series of mistakes and bad judgements by the killer or b) the killer has been placed against survivors who are vastly better than they are.
Camping close to the hook is used in competitions, which is one of the main reasons why watching those matches are so bloody boring. The tournaments are snoozefests, but I do feel that changes to the rules and removing conditions of winning from kills to hooks would vastly improve both skill and watchability. This change may make those games more enjoyable.
Also, whilst maths is interesting to look at, using maths to assume how trials go does not taken into account the rng, luck, skills, mistakes or anything else that happens in a trial, so whilst there is a formula that could be used in theory, it is far rarer for this to be what actually happens because of the randomness. Too many variables for any form of mathematics to accurately predict what will happen.
What I fear will happen is that, rather than those killer plauers learnibg and enjoying to improve their skill, they may then go to the next lazy tactic: slugging . Again, in some situations where survivors are too altruistic, slugging is fine because the opportunity is there to punish exceptionally dumb plays. However, I can see the lazier killers just knock all survivors down and bleed out in "protest". This will absolutely lead to Unbreakable basekit.
Basically, if players start playing with empathy in mind that their opponents are human, then it's far less likely changes like these are needed. However, this change really won't affect my killer plaus, since camping bores the ######### out of me and I like a challenge.
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There seems to be almost an enjoyment penalty for those who have gotten super duper good at this game.
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They are not nerfing the proxy camping which is healthy for game. They are nerfing this:
Don't get me wrong. I am not against nerfing some maps for making them more balanced. Buffing some killers for making them perform better etc. But seriously we should not allow plays like this anymore. We should see how is the game without camping & tunnelling and balance should be around this.
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So what you are saying is that 2-3 gens popping early into the match is because the survivors have more skill? How? It is literally just holding the interact buttton. There isn't any skill required. Also, slugging is a dead strategy already, unless your killer has the mobility to utilize it. Using the math I presented is how most matches go for killer players. You should watch some killer player streams to really see it. DBD is an incredibly basic game to play, with not many variables to it, so saying that this wont be how every match goes is only because the survivors you are facing are not prioritizing their main objective.
Another thing, the math presented clearly does not require any RNG, mistakes, or luck... Just running away in a straight line when you hear the TR.
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Git gud.
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Sadly that's not really a viable option for us consolers. We can get ok-ish with Blight, however the camera is slower, the sticks have dead zones and input lag, and flicks unheard of.
But Nurse on a controller with unstable frames? Nightmare fuel.
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Classic response. No contribution to the thread at all. I rate 10/10.
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Unfortunate :(
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Want to borrow my Xbox and give killer a go?
You don't really need those 60 frames do you? 😜
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Trust me, I played it lol.
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Really bad takes all around. You really misunderstand the game.
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Good on you fam!
What I'm really wondering is how tf to our Switch cousins manage...
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I have to agree.
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Absolutrly it means skill and I reckon you've proved to me why you're havibg problems and that is the skill doesn't come from gens, but how a survivor held you long enough as killer in chase to get those gens done. It's about the chase and map pressure, so again if you have not got a down after 2-3 gens, then either the survivor you were in a chase with was way more skilled or you made some really bad choices. The fact you thought I was refering to doing gens as skill clearly shows a big error in how you are looking at things. A killer has to multitask, know when to stop a chase to checks gens and so on.
Again, the maths involved which you're refering to is just about exhaustion perks. This does not reflect in the slightest how a game will ultimately go. A killer can learn to catch them at other points in other ways. It's too niche and the game is more complex than you make it out to be. If it wasn't, then there would be far less difference in skill and abilities.
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-"Then survivors need to be prepared to face Nurse and Blight every game."
It's going to be worse than that - Killers are all going to play Texas Chainsaw. You get a group of friends and kill together. There's no more of this lonely solo killer nonsense.
-"We should see how is the game without camping & tunnelling and balance should be around this."
The problem with DBD in its current state is there is no real way to stop survivors from doing generators. A strong SWF will finish the game in under 4 minutes. A comp team can finish the gens in 3 minutes.
When you say : "DBD needs tunneling prevention," you're only thinking about the survivor half of the equation. Killers need to be able to defend generators or there's no point in playing. It's beyond not fun to have survivors finish the gens by the time you get 2-4 hooks unless you hooked one player three times so you just camp the next player to death and get your 2 kills. Is that fun? It's really not for most of the people involved but that's where we are in the game's lifecycle.
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Really bad argument. You really misibderstand the game.
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you get pressure by getting downs..... how do you not understand this?
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I've experienced this feeling too lately. It feels like no matter what I do, no matter what perks I run or how I play, if I am not playing the top three killers I am getting destroyed with no hopes. After a few matches I look back to see what I did wrong and try to change things. Sometimes I chalk it up to a bad day on my part, sometimes I can alter some things and do better, but there are those matches in between where I just feel powerless. Like no matter how I look at things, there was nothing I could have done differently to achieve a different result because gens just went so quick. Here is where I put the blame at.
A lot of people were self healing with medkits and circle of healing. Now that is gone, and with Sloppy Butcher back in full force on top of it a lot of people have seemed to just ignore healing all together and do gens instead. At the same time, a large portion of gen regression perks got nerfed. They needed adjusting sure, but was an update pushing survivors away from healing really the best time to do so? Because if survivors aren't healing, they are more than likely on a gen (this is assuming they aren't being chased/hooked) and without those gen regression perks it is contributing to that helpless feeling. It makes camping feel viable because in most scenarios camping means someone is going right back on that hook if the person gets off of it.
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The timer ticks more slowly if Survivors get near the hook, it doesn't affect proxy camping, and it turns off in the endgame.
So if you were facecamping in scenarios where no one was coming for an unhook and there were still gens left unfinished, then I'm sorry to say, but it really is a skill issue, OP. If you really want to win against good Survivors, you can't use facecamping as a crutch; only when it's clearly necessary. And these changes reflect that.
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Everyone? Yeah, nah just you I think. I don't mind debating with people who offer a counter-argument, but trolls are pretty worthless and arguing with idiotic ones is never a win-win. You clearly have nothing of value to add other than whining so hope you don't mind me ending this little ... whatever it was ... with you.
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What you described is assuming the killer is mindlessly following the first Survivor until they get downed which will only work against your average pub Survivors (which tbf is like over 95% of games)
To actually gain pressure you need to play the 4v1, not hope that you can end the 1v1 fast enough to manage a 3v1 afterwards. You wanna slowly widdle Survivors of their resources so that towards the end they are left with practically nothing. Not only is this a more effective way of playing, but its also WAY more fun for both sides since you are constantly jumping from Survivor to Survivor.
This new mechanic to counter facecamping is just that. Optimal ways of playing will not be affected whatsoever since there are things in place to prevent Survivors from abusing it. Overall this is a great change
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i just hope, that thing is disabled after the doors has been powered, and the killer can still try to defend one kill...
im okay if survivors can unhook themselves before that.... we know.... about some bubbas and huntress...
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That's the neat thing pal, we don't. Getting good on switch is practically impossible when the low poly and brightness is so bad you can barely see anything that isn't right in your face, averaging 12 frames most games doesn't help much either.
Actually now that I think about it I've never seen an honest to God good switch player, I'm pretty average at best myself. I've seen plenty of good console players before, but switch players? Nah, I guess it just goes to show how bad the switch version is lol.
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Not sure how you think proxy camping is healthy for the game. Sometimes needed sure but it's hardly healthy.
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-"It feels like no matter what I do, no matter what perks I run or how I play, if I am not playing the top three killers I am getting destroyed with no hopes"
Don't worry friend - there are many people who play killer often who feel the same way. If you're not playing the best killers then you are very likely to lose against above average survivors because at almost every turn the rules of DBD are against the killer.
Maps are too safe.
SWF has no penalties and is chocked full of bonuses
Survivors get tunnel protection but the killer gets no gen rush protection.
In short DBD is an unfair game.
"It makes camping feel viable because in most scenarios camping means someone is going right back on that hook if the person gets off of it."
The reality is that the only way to apply pressure is to hook the same person over and over. Removing one player from the game when not playing a top killer lets you get ahead of the survivors.
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God I hope that game is good. Playing killer in dbd isn't enjoyable, you're either against potatoes or gods. There isn't any in between. Its not fun to just flatten survivors and its definitely not fun to get crushed.
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I think the game will be amazing considering they already had a go at F13. They had the core game in a decent state considering DBD but they made some mistakes.
This will be a "do over" and it should be good.
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What's to stop me from facecamping the hook with STBFL and just downing them again as soon as they get off of hook?
It sounds to me like this change will result in survivors getting off the hook far faster than before, which also means I can down them and put them back on the hook quicker.
Trying to tunnel one person out and then taking on the other three is my preferred strategy, but it really only works if survivors are super altruistic and constantly, immediately go for unhooks. Now, it will work no matter what.
If this change goes live, the only way they can mitigate that is to give survivors basekit endurance over multiple hits for 30 seconds (which will conversely give me infinite STBFL stacks) or something else similarly completely broken and abusable.
On the other hand, maybe it won't be so boring for the survivor. Even if they're out of the game quicker, at least they get to unhook themselves and try to escape from the killer, and it could be a success in that sense.
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That's not fair. It's just their perspective and their opinions. Disagree if you wish, but just dismissing anyone out of hand who gives a fig isn't helpful.
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In addition to being boring, facecamping isn't even that effective (unless you're Bubba). Proxy camping is where the money is, and this doesn't do much to address that. Basically, these changes will force noob campers to get better it, imo.
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Lets look at this mathematically.I don't understand how camping helps you in this situation.
If three gens are done/almost done, how does camping a hook actually help? Mathematically, the survivors have time to finish the two remaining gens and still get a rescue (or ignore the rescue and just leave). In that situation feels like your only chance is to find a three gen to defend (presuming you don't have a killer with an instadown ability).
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Proxy camping causes the hooked Survivor to be treated as a strategic point that encourages the Killer and Survivors to interact with each other, with room for interesting choices on both sides. When do we unhook? Where should I position myself to catch the unhooker? Is it safe for me to go patrol the nearest gens? The Killer and Survivors end up doing an intricate dance where the Killer is trying to squeeze as many hits as possible out of the unhook, and the Survivors are trying to get the unhook and get out of there without getting downed.
Facecamping, by contrast, encourages the Killer and Survivors to ignore each other as much as possible. Do gens, Reassurance, rinse, repeat. When you're out of Reassurances, swarm the hook, and repeat the whole process again.
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Until we know the range it's all speculation.
Is it 8m? 16? 24? 32? Some other value? The range will determine a LOT of things. It could even break proxy camping/be as bad for the game as insta blinds/insta heals/stun at any part of pickup = drop OR it could be completely worthless and not even deter camping at all.
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they said 16 (and how fast it fills scales with distance) in the stream
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I feel like the mechanic is going to be abused again. It sounds like the survivors can just loops around the hook and the person could unhook. I hope it actually pauses the meter, not just slow it down
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camping makes you lose pressure and this change won't effect proxy camping or simply zoning survivors away from the hook which is an outright better strat than facecamping anyways.
Also i will never understand why so many killer players get upset at these kinda changes with all much the average killer player states they don't want to camp but they feel forced to. If this change actually makes killer as unplayable as you believe it would then bhvr will end up buffing killer. It's about time that killers are mechanically punished if they're wasting everyone's time camping and hook trading for the entire match.
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I disagree. Tunnelling is usually a strong (but mean) strategy, but hook camping a SWF team means the other 3 are popping gens, and will either 99% the gates and then unhook that surv, or if they can't do that in time then that surv will proudly die on the hook so the rest of their friends could all get out.
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I also agree that the key here is that this mechanic is forcing killers to leave the hook, whereas a better solution would encourage killers to leave the hook. e.g. something like the survivor CAN'T be unhooked for the first 30 seconds (or whatever) after being hooked, but there's also no hook progress during that time. so the killer is guaranteed that the hooked survivor won't be rescued for 30 seconds, so they're encouraged to hunt for other survivors, and gain nothing from camping the survivor during that time (rather it's always a bad choice to do so, because the other survivors can spend that time doing gens).
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The answer will actually be "add another objective".
Post edited by BoxGhost on2 -
The issue I have is I honestly prefer survivor more. When by myself with no one to talk to I get bored easily so killer will get stale fast. To help this issue I try to play just about every killer but I feel like when not playing Nurse, Blight, Spirit and (I know this will be debated) Billy I start the match with the odds against me. Before I never had a problem doing this, but like I mentioned before, the devs for some reason decided to nerf all the gen regression perks at the same time they nerfed healing and that really curbstomped a lot of killers in terms of pressure. I do play both sides, and I hate to be another person to complain, but I understand the frustration of killer players feeling undervalued.
The maps play a big part in these things. You are absolutely right about that. It makes you go from starting with bad odds to worse odds. You get a large map like Ormond with a low mobility killer? Forget about that game. You get a map like the Meat Plant with a bunch of safe pallets? Hope you happen to be playing anti-loop. As far as SWF, I don't really mind that aspect. I think the most annoying part about it though is comms eliminate the need for a lot of things. You know the killer and their perks without ever encountering them, you know exactly which pallets have been used without needing Windows of Opportunity. You know which direction the killer is headed when they break chase or leave a hook or if they choose to camp. You know how many totems are left, how to decide who goes for saves/gens and much more just from talking to each other. But at the same time being able to play with your friends is what keeps survivor fun and I don't think we will ever get a change to SWF comms so that is something to get used to
The issue with gen protection is making sure it isn't abused. If they ever did decide to implement that it would have to be done in a way that is fair so that it couldn't be taken advantage of. There is a lot of ways to argue either side honestly. The whole built in anti-tunnel is nice, but works with the assumption the killer finds someone else immediately and that the unhooked survivor doesn't immediately hop on a gen in their place and this isn't the case. So your options are to switch targets like the game wants (not beneficial against a team where everyone can run), hit the unhooked person (not beneficial) or chase them and hope they can't make it to a pallet. Regardless everyone else will be on gens and that is the issue. I'm all for a window of protection to make things more enjoyable, but I wish BHVR would consider it also isn't fun to have all gens done in a few minutes.
Bonus mention: Pallet hitboxes have felt extra generous lately. You won't even be standing in it yet it still manages to stun youl
I remember ages ago when the game director when to a Korean live event and played Hag on stream only to get smashed which is when they realized how bad the balance was. Thinking maybe he should play the game again sometime against a 4 man team like before and see how it goes again.
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I've been thinking this for awhile but I'm glad someone said it. I took a break and started playing again this week, and the amount of killers who approach me at a gen and instead of instigating chase immediately, will stop and kick the gen is pretty high. Which gives me a significant head start. In dead zones in particular it's massively advantageous to me.
People can claim they need to because the gens are going too fast, but they do this even when they're not. And imo getting that down is more important - it forces other survivors off gens on account of needing to unhook/heal, plus being engaged in the next chase. I honestly think those gen kick meta months has changed how alot of killers play - in particular, new killers who watched content creators and know no other way to play. Just my personal observation.
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you can't default to this playstyle, that shouldn't be an every game thing. also you can just watch the hook from distance and start face camping as soon as ppl start showing up. the problem *to me* mostly is heavily immersive survivors literally forcing you to control an area so they take risks. with the facecamping gone, you probably will need nowhere to hide or other reliable info perks
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