When do killers get basekit anti-gen rush?
Since survivors have basekit anti-tunnel and will soon have basekit anti-camp and basekit anti-slug, it seems only fair for killers to get a basekit counter to survivors engaging in unfun boring no counterplay gen rush gameplay.
Maybe the first time a gen reaches 50% it will automatically block for a while or instantly regress a large amount! Maybe survivors will have to take a chase to gain repair tokens they can spend to repair some percentage of a generator!
Comments
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Say that to killers who get matched against SWF kill squads running hyperfocus, commodius, and send you to garden of joy. 10 seconds isn't going to do a damn thing, when survivors literally just doing nothing but holding shift + w, no pallets, no windows, no looping, no anything, take 55 seconds to down and hook. Now do it 12 times lol
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They already got a lot base-kit buffs.
And you can't buff killers universally while Nurse, Spirit and Blight exists.
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It depends on what this person means by gen-rush.
Is gen rush just the overall completion speed of generators?
Or is it the out-of-the gate sense of falling behind due to the increased repair efficiency for Survivors at the start of the Trial before the Killer gets their first chase in.
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Clearly never played killer in your life.
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Just because one side is getting a new mechanic for a longstanding gameplay problem doesn't mean the other side is entitled to a consolation birthday cake.
The entitlement of some people in this community is exasperating.
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Not gonna lie, I don't think there is a healthy way to just give killers a universal base kit solution to gen rushing.
You would be better served by looking at either restructuring survivor objective in some way or doing a targeted rework of on toolboxes or gen regression. Personally, I'd rather have a rework to gen regression where in the early game it is fairly strong, but gets weaker over time as I do feel killers do need to be a bit more proactive to gain benefit of that nature. I also realize certain killers just can't keep up and that goes to more nuanced design issue that is best solved directly rather than a blanket universal semi-solution. I think we may be at a point in DBD where concepts like 110% movement speed killers shouldn't be a thing anymore and perks should either be doing more niche force multiplying effects or be reworked/tuned to be generally less specific by overall more useful.
Hexes have sort of been bullied out of killer kits with a few exceptions, gen regression across the board has been severely cut so I think doing a mix of targeted adjustments on both sides would bring better results.
Killers haven't really gotten anything that matches the universal base kit additions of survivors. You can give killers a universally buff while Nurse, Spirit, and Blight exists because ultimately the three of them do not constitute the majority of play space by design won't really suffer or gain drastic benefits. That is the problem with being that good, things that aren't specifically targeted to you just don't really effect you all that much.
By design it is pretty hard to give killers any sort of universal buff because the problems killers have often even if the overall outcome is the same the causes and symptoms are different. So unless I'm missing something it would be cool if you can elaborate on what exactly you consider a base kit buff for killers that has actually happened.
Keep in mind that the rework to medkits and self healing while beneficial to killers isn't something that should be considered a base kit buff. That's a negative survivor balance change as it doesn't directly give killers anything it just makes the overall play more reasonable.
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i think killers should get some many version of corrupt. It is kinda silly that survivors can just spawn in on different gens and no matter which one u go to u losing one. The stronger killers can down quickly anyway so i don't think they will benefit much from this
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Youre right, instead we should buff a character so bad people who play solo can keep up with good teamplayers on third party comm tools. Afterall this community is advocating for it all the time.
By that logic we instead should focus first on bringin all killer characters on par with the good ones and then buff tgem some more so bad players can keep up with suupaalfs nurse.
Way to miss the topic tho as were not debating killer power here, bit moreso a way so survivivors cant just focus down gens. You know, like survivors always talk about evil tunnel and camp.
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How about all survs need to tdo 25% gen and then swap gens all the time. Im sure theyd ne find with doing as they preach. Oh and ofc a time limit they can stay around gens.
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What if each survivor could only contribute 50% of a gen's total progress to each gen without a gear/part?
A normal gear/part, found somewhere in the map, lets them work an additional 50%, allowing them to 100% solo a gen. A brand new gear/part, found in the basement, lets them work an additional 100%, allowing them to solo 2 gens before having to find a new gear. (This would give survivors reason to go to the basement and give perks like Territorial Imperative more value. And this would make the Brand New Part addon for the toolbox function like the Brand New Part/Gear in the trial, saving that survivor a trip to the basement.)
- The survivor can either look for the gear first and then hop on a gen, or get the gen to 50% and then come back with the gear later.
- Two survivors could team up on the same gen to combine both their 50% into 100%.
- Multiple survivors could each solo their own gen to 50% and then swap/rotate to finish someone else's gen.
- The survivor can ignore gears completely and just run around adding 50% to every gen and letting someone else finish the rest.
Either way, this would stop 3 gens from popping at once after the first chase ends (or before it ends, in some cases).
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You should look up Tatariu on YouTube and twitch. They're a long-time, dedicated legion player.
Not just a killer main, but played legion since long before the rework.
Also plays survivor, so has a pretty good idea of how the game works on both sides...
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The anti camping feature isn't meant to be a trade off with the killers. Its meant to punish killers for doing something they shouldn't be doing and giving the camped survivor a chance to escape the situation. If you aren't camping "gen rushing" isn't likely to happen anyway since you'll be playing normally by checking generators and interacting with survivors. Some things in the game just need to change for the better without needing to appease the other side. Gen pressure mitigates "gen rushing." Nothing currently mitigates camping effectively that doesn't greatly increase the chance of the killer just camping the person that tried to save the camped person. Sometimes its even impossible depending on the killer.
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Never change, dbd forums
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Oh a content creator with preferential matchmaking that never plays against good teams, I'm soooo impressed. Watch survivor performance instead of mindlessly spamming stuff.
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....what the ######### is this
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Okay, next patch will have the survivors stare at a wall for a full minute before being able to play. Problem solved.
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"Never played killer"
"You can literally watch him play killer"
"Oh well actually he's just got easy games"
Jesus christ when do yall stop moving the goddamn goalposts 😭😭
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Let me know how that goes for you lol.
@topic Maybe a repair speed debuff until the first down happens. That would effect killers pretty evenly.
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To be honest I don't see anything out of league for the DbD community here so you really shouldn't be surprised anymore
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It's a problem when it's the other way around as well. Non SWF teams playing against pre-nerf Eruption, Pain Resonance, CoB. And it still happens (and will continue to happen) with Nurse running 3 teleport build and Blight running his strong add-ons. They don't care they're playing against solos. That's the problem with their add-ons and/or matchmaking.
If matchmaking was fixed, then we'd have less of those instances.
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Why should bad killer players be able to keep up with survivors playing efficiently. Solo's could never keep up with 2+ regression perks before they got nerfed. And they still can't keep up with SM running a 3gen strat. You're asking the same thing basically. That bad killers and average killers get buffs to counter good teamwork, efficient gameplay. You just want only one side of below average playerbase to be able to keep up and not the other.
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All of the basekit improvements survivors have received are in direct response to restrictive killer playstyles (camping and tunneling). If killers weren’t heavily restricting survivor gameplay, I’m confident survivors would not have received these QoL changes. This is the monster you’ve created. Now you must suffer for your hubris.
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No, but you see, survivor streamers running a killer for 5 gens just means the game is broken and survivors are too powerful (just forget that the survivor might have 5k+ hours played as survivor and killer has less than 1k).
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It's okay to just admit the person accusing him of not playing killer was wrong. Regardless of matchmaking, he's killing survivors and finding away around gen-rushing. Why not look at his content to help you with killing survivors and getting around gen-rushing.
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I mean the killer equivalent to that is like a Blight bringing Alch Ring, Compound 33 or Crow with a slowdown build against a casual/Solo Q team. The other side is basically meant to lose unless they bring things of equal caliber
Its why I believe add ons should be a factor in matchmaking. You wanna bring Ultra Rares? Sure! But be prepared to go against them
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Do what now? How is this remotely relevant to anything I've just said?
I literally wrote disagreeing with the notion of giving killers a universal base kit solution to gen rushing and responded to someone making a claim that killers had gotten such types of buffs in the past.
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First of, can you define what a gen rush is, please?
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So, do you want the game balanced around those swf kill squads, and if so, what do you think the changed balance would do to all solo teams, that are still about 50% of all matches?
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You:
”Killers haven't really gotten anything that matches the universal base kit additions of survivors.”
Not true. Patch 6.1.0 was full of deliberate killer buffs that provided what were essentially basekit perks analogous to the survivor’s receiving basekit perks.
Me, in response to this statement, which tbh undermines your whole point:
All of the basekit improvements survivors have received are in direct response to restrictive killer playstyles (camping and tunneling). If killers weren’t heavily restricting survivor gameplay, I’m confident survivors would not have received these QoL changes. This is the monster you’ve created (plural you). Now you (plural) must suffer for your hubris.
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That might even be ok, if gens never regress
After all, unhooking dont give you back the hookstate, once its gone its gone, so the same should be true for gens as well, right?
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Gen rush is the pushing of game via survivor objective completion at rate so much higher than normal that the majority of killers can not effectively keep up even if they were to play optimally. A "rushed" game is typically a game that ends within 3-7mins on average rather than the 9-15min average the game is technically balanced around. Gen rushing is made possible by the combination of gen repair speed increasing perks, items, and addons that feed additional charges into gen progress or increase overall efficiency.
Gen rushing is not simply survivors just doing their objective normally or optimally, but hyper optimally at an order of magnitude where the killer is bound to struggle against the much shorter time constraints. Killers are not all effected equally as if your killer of choice has mobility or consistent ways to traverse on demand that supersede standard walking for patrols they can mitigate the effect of hyper optimal play. Killers who can't are left with using gen regression perks to make up the difference, but with heavy nerfs and a focus shift from passive to active and situational regression, killers not playing in the upper tiers generally feel unable to contend with the current speed in which trials can take place. With such a sharp variance from trial to trial it generally creates a gameplay experience that does not feel good.
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6.1.0 was a wide scale meta shake up for every one, but it wasn't even remotely similar to the likes of base kit BT and new anti-camp function that we can start testing tomorrow. You've not undermined my point and I don't know why you want to make this some weird Us vs Them own when I'm literally speaking from a position that favors survivors if anything.
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I think that is a good definition, but then the proposed solution is wrong, since it doesnt affect just gen rushing but normal gameplay as well. The Survivor changes dont effect killers that neither camp nor tunnel much.
But i agree that by your definition of gen rush, it is a problem. But on the same turn, its sometimes needed. But then the CounterTunneling/CounterGenrush circle just starts all over again.
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You forget that those +10 secs and +2.5% omn kick, means nothing if you calculate in the gen rush perks added to the game with and after that change.
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Completed gens cant be regressed tho. Removing regression would be more like removing healing from the game, if we try to find similarities.
Gens/gate ~ hookstates
Repair ~ chase
Regression ~ healing/denial/pallets etc.
Escape ~ Kill.
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How about not putting words in my mouth. That'd be nice, for starters.
Secondly incase you didnt notice, my first paragraph was about the survivor balance logic concerning the relation between solo and comms with friends.
My third paragraph was then about applying that survivor balance logic to the killer side, first by equalizing killers because all survs share the same tools/character and then making the skill related adjustments like the solo-comms gap.
If that logic applied to killers seems ridiculous to you why are we advocating for it for survivors? Way to prove my theory most of the community being survivor biased.
And now for the funny finale. I support all that solo swf gapclosing, no really. But what i really want for dbd to treat both roles the same. Give sirvivor character stuff to emulate comms or forcefeed them the results of good comms usage on the hud, bu then have the balls to actually make all killer power levels approach the strongest too.
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No cause that would make it even more impossible to win with potatoes (which matchmaking loving giving you). Maybe if match making actually work this could slightly be a interesting idea.
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Problem is they don't KNOW they are playing against solos. Best solution would be to stop playing games with this and show killers when they are playing with a SWF and not. That way i know if i need to bring my best stuff, or if i can meme around and play a chill game. If it creates a problem where killers queue dodge games with SWF, then obviously we have a problem with SWF don't we?
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Problem is, killer doesn't know if the match is going to be chill. You HAVE to play like that from the get go, because if you don't and they are one of those SWF kill squads, by the time you realize that, its too late and you lost.
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Yeah actually, i want the game to be balanced around high level players. Not even just SWF. This video at the timestamp sums it up:
What is the high level top tier survivor doing? They are exploiting extremely powerful loops on cowshed that make it nearly impossible for a killer to catch them. What are "average" survivors doing? Predropping shack pallet at 5 gens and getting hit anyway. These average survivors aren't exploiting the broken mechanics that top tier survivors are doing, so if you nerf those top tier mechanics, you aren't actually hurting those survivors.
If you disagree, and think the game should be balanced around low skill players, then i'll be eagerly awaiting the MASSIVE buffs that nurse needs, given that she is by far the worst killer in the game when looking at "average" skilled players.
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Same can be said for Survivors
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I’m not making it us vs. them; in responding directly to things you’ve said. Let’s follow a rudimentary line of logic: Why did survivors received basekit BT? What did BHVR specifically say when they announced that feature? They explained why it was a thing given to survivors—do you remember the language around why it was to be a basekit feature? If not I can summon someone to remind you. Now, let’s consider the anti-camping measure. This one is fresh so you should easily find the answers to the questions I’m about to ask. Why did BHVR say they’re implementing this one? Take your time.
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Almost like matchmaking should be good. But no, instead we have this trash one where matchmaking for MMR purposes caps at 1600, meaning a real 1600 player could go against a 2.2k player.
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Bad killers are already stronger than bad survivors. That's why people say in low mmr games are heavily killer sided. This is already the state of the game. Even in average games the survivors have to be decent individually AND be able to co-ordinate to counter certain killer play styles. It's in high MMR where this is the opposite for some killers. SO saying it's silly, is indeed silly because atm the game is balanced in such a way that the game favors bad/average killers above bad/average survivors and sometimes even decent survivors.
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That's what happens when you have broken things on either side that people relied WAY too heavily on
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Survivors also don't know they're going against killers with their most broken builds. It still won't stop killers setting the pace of the game. It'll just make it easier for killers to pick and choose who they like to play against.
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They really didn't. Remember how survivors got +10 seconds of basekit BT off the hook? That's the exact time shift killers "save" with the extra generator time except that you expect 9 hook events during a game and only 5 gens to get completed.
Even this math is in favor of the survivor by 40 seconds.
-"What is the high level top tier survivor doing? They are exploiting extremely powerful loops on cowshed that make it nearly impossible for a killer to catch them."
Never played TF2 but the parachute segment is a perfect example that shows the difference between top players and average players. One of the biggest problems with DBD is that the loops are designed to hand hold average players. When you get to Cowshed and someone runs around a loop and doesn't throw the pallet after running around it 3-4 times then this ends up not being fair to the killer.
Funny enough VHS had mechanics that overcame several of DBD's problems.
Healing in DBD is still questionable because when I play "medic" I use 2 perks to heal people off the hook in under 7 seconds. This leads to scenarios where it feels to the killer that hits don't matter. VHS solved this problem by having the monster go enraged which meant hit = down no matter what.
Going back to the problem of looping we could fix broken maps very easily. Once upon a time in 2018 we had "super Bloodlust"; if you don't know what that is you can find some videos where streamers like Tofu talk about it. In short imagine if we changed the Bloodlust mechanic so that when a killer chases you they buildup bloodlust and it doesnt ever go away until they hit someone for damage. How would that change the game?
If we look at "bad" players we can say they loop for X seconds and we can be sure that X is some variable between 5-20 seconds before a killer hits them in chase. If we changed the game so that no matter what the very best players were only X+10 seconds instead of what we have now which is closer to X+40 seconds then killer would have a minimum chase time.
This would allow everyone to be on roughly the same page. The problem is that veteran players who are used to looping a killer for 30-60 seconds before getting hit would be very angry.
An even more simple solution would be to limit people by their MMR. What does that mean? New players have an 800 MMR so they would play on the maps we have now with extreme hand holding. Imagine if we made a 1200 MMR version of the same maps where either an entire jungle gym were removed from some maps or 2 filler pallets never spawned. That would be a much more challenging map but players in that MMR bracket would be fine. That leads us to the 1600+ MMR players who could run killers on maps with 4 pallets/vaults missing - therefore when they play any map it will spawn with a combination of 4 vaults and pallets "missing".
OR we could limit killers by the maximum MMR they should face. Imagine for example if Trapper were set to a 1199 MMR limit so they would never play against 1200 MMR players. That might make that killer "fair" to play.
Or we could go through the list and change all the killers to be on a Blight/Nurse level. Imagine the Legion killer. We give Legion Iri button base kit. Now Legion will chase down survivors with the ease of Blight.
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First rule of the DbD forums: you're only high MMR if you're consistently losing games on the magical god SWF only server. It is simply not possible to be bad at killer. There is always an explanation.
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Survivors set the pace of the game with how efficient they play on gens. Killers are reacting to what survivors do.
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The starting point for fairness would be : basekit Deadlock. This should prevent the killer from losing multiple gens in the first chase.
What if someone wants to run the Deadlock perk? It's very simple : you just change the perk to add +30 seconds to the base kit timer.
Furthermore the Deadlock mechanic would need to have "rollback protection" added in so that if two generators are completed at the same time then one rolls back to 99% completion and is blocked.
So many people want the killer to suffer when they tunnel a survivor. The reality is that tunneling becomes necessary vs efficient survivors because the gens get completed too quickly.
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Basekit anti-slug? That doesn't exist.
If you have issues with basekit anti face-camping then that's a you issue.
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