When do killers get basekit anti-gen rush?
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That's a lovely piece of rhetoric. What happens when a 9000 hour killer streamer gets into that situation and every player in the game can loop like that?
I will remind everyone that once upon a time people said the same thing during the time of infinite loops. "Just chase someone else" works great until it doesn't.
Map design in dbd fundamentally needs to change. There should never be a time in DBD where the killer thinks : I shouldn't take that chase.
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I love how the Survivor answer to long chases is 'Just give up.' 😂
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Im a survivor main buddy, but i want a balanced game thats fun for everyone.
While you say that you understand fine, what you write suggests that you dont, when gens are rushed the killers need to rush kills. The easiest way to do that is what?? Tunneling and camping, yep.
- and the survivors are alturistic this is why camping is effictive.
Gens can be done in 30 secs (45 is more realistic). 2-3 gens pop on first down in most matches.
The killers need 6 downs (this is when tunneling, they need even more if they are not) just to get a draw.
Now do the math (its not that hard).
Oh yeah and btw - Camping, tunnelling and slugging are completley legit strategies, devs said so many times.
But you are trying to make up rules that dosnt exist because you want easy games.
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Best change in my eyes, is that Generators start off with a 30% repair speed penalty, reduced by 10% every minute until 3 minutes where it's no longer present. Because man does it feel awful being in your first chase for like a minute, and seeing 2 gens pop somehow. I had a gen pop on me one time because I could even use my TVs as Sadako, like #########? How is that okay?
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To be fair…the real problem are premades. No SoloQ team can ever “gen rush” you, if you are playing well. Buffing killers more would kill SoloQ. If anything, premades need to be nerfed.
How to nerf premades? Lets start with them not being able to share perks and items. I cannot think of another way to bring them more towards SoloQ level.
And even if you wanted to buff killers, it would make S-tier killer even more overpowered.
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Gens can be done in 30 seconds? What are you talking about? Are you talking about builds involving Hyperfocus and perfect toolboxes with perfect add-ons? The majority don't run that.
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thats why i also said that 45sec's is more realistic, i also linked a video explaining this.
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This is absolutely right. Need I also mention that genrushing isn’t even a thing anymore…. It refers to a time when survivors could use the BNP to get gens done in literally no time at all. Now everyone uses that term when they’re mad that survivors are doing their objectives.
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Lmao what a good joke!
Wait, are you serious?
You honestly think those changes had any impact?
Survivors on average can gen rush anywhere between 4 to 6 min into a match independant of killer actions.
There is no way in the seven heaven/hells this is healthy.
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Im a survivor main buddy, but i want a balanced game thats fun for everyone.
Camping, tunnelling and slugging are completley legit strategies
Pick one.
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So basically "you will lose if everyone can loop no matter what, accept it" is your answer I guess?
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Nobody in this game is perfect and this game isn't a skilled game at this point in time , maybe it's because I have darn near 13,000 hours that the game doesn't feel hard I've been here since the beginning, but these hit squads you're talking about are like 4 percent of the playerbase they really aren't that common because most of the time there's always at least 2 survivors who aren't the best in chase even if they have thousands of hours, the level I have to try to depends on what killer I'm using at the time like if I'm playing nurse they might as well just DC I've quit picking her up because it immediately turns me off the game when I beat a squad at 5 gens, one thing I'll recommend for a lot of the killers struggling is to find a tournament group that likes to practice and take turns playing killer, you'll figure out exactly what you're doing wrong as a killer, I tried facing team oracle with Demogorgon one time and it didn't go very well for me but it taught me what I was doing wrong and what I needed to improve on and in fact there are a few tourney squads that ask me to scrim because they know I play a variety of killers and I'm a decent survivor, I'm nowhere near the best but knowledge is power in this game because there arent a lot of skilled plays to make it's what you know and how you use it
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Maybe YOU lost if you didn't bring your best but not everyone is the same and not everyone needs meta perks and strategies to win against a good squad, that's you speaking from personal experience not considering the factors of what killers are being played, if I'm playing trapper then that's a no brainer to bring good stuff and use scummy strategies because he sucks and isn't a good killer it's a little different than playing nurse, blight, or Wesker where you could literally be perkless and snowball a good squad if you play your cards right
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Like I said your point is invalid and makes 0 sense, a person using a perk and doing totems shows their MMR lmao, the most biggest nonsense I ever heard. But here you are qqing about the much needed anti face camp mechanic, so it shows your MMR too =)
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-"but these hit squads you're talking about are like 4 percent of the playerbase they really aren't that common"
And if you win often enough you'll have them every game for the next 4-5 games; yet they are supposed to be nearly nonexistent.
Fundamentally speaking there should not be as possible a potential gap as there currently exists between best M1 killer plays and best survivor plays.
If the devs made survivors have the same collision model as the killer then the best player in the world would be able to loop better than an "average joe" by about 10-15 seconds. Maybe that's the solution : when playing an M1 killer all the survivors "get fat" and have the same collision box as the killer.
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The fact people think mmr is accurate enough to be considered a legitimate system makes me laugh
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Could you stop quote mining me??
( Quote mining is an informal fallacy and a fallacy of ambiguity, in that it removes context that is necessary to understand the mined quote.)
I said..
"Camping, tunnelling and slugging are completley legit strategies, devs said so many times."
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What's the point of that distinction if you use it to argue against anti-camp, anti-tunnel measures? Do you want a game that's fun for everyone, or are you just going to defer to the devs?
Pick one!
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When genrushing becomes a strategy that makes a game into a free escape.
Post edited by nars on1 -
Hold your horses, you are trying to make up rules, because it does not fit your agenda. And im telling you that those rules you are trying to make up, are invalid. And im referring to the devs, who said that camping and tunneling were legit.
You change my quote, so it sound as if its something i came up with. There is a big difference.
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It's not functionally distinct. Why bring it up if it's not to strengthen your own position? And how would it do that without at least partially matching it?
Or did you make an appeal to authority just because you felt like it?
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What ever you belive me when im saying im a survivor main or not, is really not my problem. I dont owe you anything.
An appeal to authority ?? im correcting you when you are trying to make up rules that dont exist. I guess you are a fan of the survivors rulebook for killers??
When i play killer (yes i sometimes do my dailies). I play as i like, im not following the some custom rules that some random person on the forum made upm just to make their own game easier. If gens are getting rushed, i have no choice than rush kills.
When im playing as survivor, i am also aware that if we rush gens, or keep saboing hooks ect. that the killer will prob also start playing sweaty, and you know what.... im not going to the forum to complain about it.
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So in short, you are fully convinced that camping, tunnelling and slugging are fair tactics. So this whole business splitting hairs over me axing the 'devs said so' part from your quote was purely performative then, because you come out and state it anyway. And from the onset, I knew you would, because that is the only reason why you'd bring that up.
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With the current gen speeds, I think it's a necessity on some killers (slow moving ones), at least until they got 1k, do i think its fun? no
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Actually, it does. This is how balance works. Knowing some survivors, the mechanic will be mercilessly exploited to gain advantage without any way to counter for the killer. Like basekit Time, which when unhooked near the gate, effectively makes the survivor invulnerable. What should Killer do? Just admit defeat.
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How to say "I know nothing about how game devs balance live service PvP games" without saying "I know nothing about how game devs balance live service PvP games."
It's an iterative process. If a game has a gameplay issue, you change the game to fix the issue. Then you take stock of the game you have at that point by analyzing if the changes made are meaningfully affecting your target gameplay metrics. If not, then your implemented solution works and you move on. If so, then you reiterate, either by tweaking the newly introduced mechanic or adding/modifying some other mechanic to bring the metrics back in line with your target. That's how real game balance works for a game of this nature.
It's a step by step process, not some tit-for-tat "One side get buff so other side need buff unga bunga" myopic veneer of balance.
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It was not necessary to insult my knowledge. You are missing one simple point: bad ideas should be weeded out before they reach release. You must THINK before you DO.
After all, we are intelligent because we are able to predict the results of our actions.
What kind of mindless automaton are you if you have to take an action first to understand the obvious consequences?
I honestly believe that BHVRs have at least basic human abilities.
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Until they get rid of camping and tunneling they’ll address genrushing
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The new survivor UI is a bigger buff to gen efficiency than either of those are a debuff.
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Personally, as a new player who plays both sides and isn't jaded yet, it seems to me that by and large the game has had quite a lot of improvements over the past few years.
I've been watching a lot of videos covering DBD; Otzdarva, Ardetha, Kujo, Spookyloopz, Scorpionz to name a few, and I've learned a lot to already start doing well on both sides. What has been surprising though is how many videos, even recent videos are actually out of date... I have to cross check what a lot of these videos say quite a lot.
The game is quite clearly to me constantly evolving... not necessarily the right move every time from listening to these guys, but its always getting tweaked, and there does feel like there is a conscious effort to improve the game for everyone. Tbh at my level without all the crazy perks in play, it is loads of fun... though admittedly the future for me does look a little intimidating currently 😅
Regardless, I'm having a blast... and I'm intrigued as to how the anti camp changes will affect the game for me on both sides... but if killer becomes too weak, it'll get changed. The game needs both sides to function, so I'm just kinda excited to see what happens.
Hopefully the venom between survivors and killers diminishes over time, but it seems to me, by and large the game is slowly getting changes the community is asking for... so hopefully everything is resolved if ever I get to higher levels 😅
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It not as simple as "the killer is weak". A couple of killers are very strong in this game either due to ability (Nurse) or addons (Blight, Spirit). However, the other 90% of the killer roster is underpowered. That is mostly due to their ability to handle the current maps and a lot of high MMR survivors grouping up in premades. If they buff killers currently, they will also buff the strongest killers. That is not something we want. To balance out the playing field they need to do a couple of things.
The first one is balancing out maps. So far they have done an horrible job at it. All maps released in the previous year were large and full of pallets and loops (extremely survivor sided as people here would say). The reworked maps (Red Forest, Azarov's) got worse for killers at well. Way more safe pallets, no dead zones and a lot more clutter (which interferes with the play style of the Hillbilly for example).
The second one is nerfing premades. Them being on comms alone is a major advantages annihilating the power of Trapper or Ghostface (calling out where traps are, or where the stealth killer is). The biggest problem is perk stacking. Going up against a team with 2 Prove Thyselves, 2 Unbreakables, 3 Adrenalines and so one just isn't something the "average" killer can keep up with, especially with said map imbalance.
That's why a lot of killer mains are frustrated because it takes you a while to get a good survivor and by that time most generators will be done already. From there it is an uphill battle, where any pressure you have build up gets nullified because everyone has Adrenaline and they get fully healed again or whatever plan they've communicated over their headsets.
Boosting survivors is done for the sake of SoloQ, which is doing better but is still not in the best spot. However, premades consistently benefit from it as well even though they are already overpowered (of course I am talking about the efficient, seriously playing premades...not the relaxed ones fooling around).
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I think they need to give survivors a side objective to do besides doing generators. It is funny how I struggle less with Pig than with Pyramid Head for example. That's because Pig has build in slowdown with her traps. The survivors need to get the bear traps off before continuing. With Wesker they need to spray. And so on. Other killers have build in slowdown as well, but it isn't punishing. Freddy is an example. Almost no one goes to the other side of the map to wake up simply because playing in the dream world is not really punishing.
Post edited by mca240 on1 -
Very insightful! Thanks!
Yeah, one has to assume BHVR must be looking at Blight and Nurse... its a very consistent through line I've seen in all channels... though learning curve is high, so new players trying to learn them do pretty awful...
As a knee jerk thought, perhaps playing SWFs could be debuffed somehow? Not that one would really want to punish people for premaking tbh, and this is likely a bad idea...
But I dunno, spitballing a 5% long gen repair, and 5% longer to heal or something for those players making up the SWF? Scale with the number of participant in the SWF up to a 20% debuff? Solo players matched into the same team are not affected...
Probably would be hated, and the game would need hard nerfs elsewhere to compensate... but seems a lose lose battle trying to balance for the advantage of comms.
Would be REALLY interested if in organised competition survivor comms was banned... 😅
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It has only been recently the developers started listening to feedback so it seems. So far, the whole reasoning behind nerfing or buffing a perk, addon, killer and so on was based off of data. Specifically, how often is it used and does the killer meet our target.
The kill rate they aim for is 60%. Blight is somewhere around that number. That's because newer players struggling with him and experienced players excel with Blight. The developers looked at these numbers combined and because it matched with their aim, they found him to be balanced. The same goes for his addons. They are all good. Hence none of the addons is picked significantly more than the other. Hence, his addons are fine.
Another example. They almost nerfed the Hillbilly. Why? His engravings were overused. They didn't seem to care the reason behind this is his other addons being useless. No, they were overused so needed to be nerfed.
This way of working misses any nuance. Let's hope they look more behind the data going forward. The same goes for survivor. Actually split op SoloQ and premades and see how they perform separate from each other and also for each level of MMR. Instead of piling it together.
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I must admit for a few months now almost every game i have as survivor or killer 5 gens are done an usually in space of 4-5 mins never use to be so quick only time its lower is if people dc or insta give up on hook
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Yes Firellius.
Camping and tunneling are perfectly acceptable strategies, as per the devs own words.
Now how you decide to deal with that fact is entirely up to you and no, you are not entitled anything else from that point on.
The devs have offered plenty of built-in advantages to address the concerns survivors had in the past and its plenty as it is.
Now it would be only fair for killers to see their concers addressed as well.
Respectfully, deal with it.
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Those killer’s definitely need nerfs however I know many people who don’t find them fun to play. I think a fairly simple change that will stop the actual rushing would be a vary small basekit deadlock
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Some effects of changes aren't foreseeable regardless of how long you think about them. With something that has as many moving parts as this game does, nobody can really claim to know if the anti-camping mechanic will meaningfully (which, in my mind means a change of +/- 5%) affect kill rates, especially because we don't have any actual data on how often killers are face camping and close proxy camping, nor a way to collect that data, and neither do we know whether people will change their behavior after a system like this is implemented if they were inclined to camp prior to the introduction of the mechanic.
But what we can say right now is that getting camped to death is extremely unfun for 4/5 of the players in the game, and usually pretty boring for the killer too, and that it should be discouraged in a way that preserves the potential for the killer to be able to use it tactically. Their proposed mechanic does exactly this, and if it changes kill rates meaningfully then killers can be buffed in other ways; but you don't "pre-buff" something in anticipation of a key metric falling when you aren't even sure it will fall in the first place.
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"Now it would be only fair for killers to see their concers addressed as well."
Why?
If survivors don't get to change the devs' minds, why do killers?
What's to say the killers' alleged miserable state isn't by dev design?
Why would killers get to address their concerns and campaign to have them resolved, but survivors have to shut up and take it?
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Wdym???
The DH and CoH nerfs are literally the only time the devs addressed a concern killer had for MONTHS, they did that while nerfing our meta-builds on top of Years of previous nerfing to our meta builds...
Meanwhile survivors got base kit endurance from hook, a bunch of other base kit crap. BS maps that favors survivors with a map size of the continent of africa and more pallets than 3 warehouses combined
Y'all have it waaaaaay too good.
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And why would you get to bring that up to the devs?
Why not just 'decide how to deal with that fact' and realise that you're 'not entitled to anything else'?
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Devs have stated years ago (cant bother to look it up, so take my words with a grain of salt) they do not intend to split survivor into solo/swf balance wise. Its the same character for all survivors, at all times. The difference is comms (third party stuff) and player mentality, which both are basically unadjustable by the devs.
A third difference would be that "solo" has become a blanket term for "bad players" while "swf" refers to mostly good players with mostly good comms usage.Notice that most people only refer to "good" Nurses and Blights when they talk about those killers.
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Right back at ya!
As survivor ou are not entitled to anything more lol.
But honestly, our points have been made and you don't seem to contribute to the conversation anymore.
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Right back at ya!
You don't really get what was happening here, do you?
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Lol
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Honestly, this game has never had this many changes in so little time as it has in the past couple of years.
People quitting DBD saying it's because the devs don't make changes or aren't trying are just denying reality at this point.
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