lets discuss why are camping and tunneling considered bad?

the funny thing is it's so common these days I'm able to run at a killer with OTR + DS + Dead hard and make them lose an entire match just to kill me because they fall for all three, that's when you know the situation is getting out of hand. and they get so angry and BM when it happens lmfao

I don't face camp at all. I derive no enjoyment from that. I won't tunnel without a reason (but reasons are easy to come by).

I'm about 320 hours in so I've been discussing it for about a month. 😅

Tell that to the survivors who do nothing but hang around and blind killers. I play this game for my entertainment. It's not even a little bit up to me to ensure that you have a fun match. The fact is, I don't care if you have fun or not. Unless you're a friend then you're nothing more than a bot to me.

The game as it is currently has become oversaturated with hyper optimization options on the survivor side and low engagement hyper optimal strategies on the killer side. Addressing the overuse of problematic outlier strategies like tunneling and face camping is needed due to the negative play experience these generate overall. These are also easier to address in half measure without having make any substantive changes to the core gameplay loop. Reward structures to incentivize people not to do these strategies in a problematic over systemic fashion don't work as the people you are trying to discourage don't really respond to normal gameplay incentives that already exist. This is what has been proven time and again which is what makes the constant stick and carrot premise to this discussion moot.

The game does have a gen time issue even people don't want to admit it. The variance between the longest it could take to does vs the shortest time it could take to do gens is too massive a jump. Games are trending towards being generally too fast for average killer characters to be comfortably played in all skills levels. The game is old and very optimized with new perks always being added that generally further place more efficiency in objective completion. The added 10 seconds to base gen time is moot as most of that extra time is instantly removed by perks, toolboxes, and extra bodies on gens. There is no good half measure to remedy this issue as unless the core gameplay changes substantially we've probably hit a semi-soft wall at which just adding more time will make any difference without changes to perks and toolboxes. Active and passive gen regression across board has been flattened out, but is still marginally better than none at if you playing killers outside of the overall best few. It should be looked because we're 8 years in and the game needs to evolve.

Fair enough.

At this point I dodge more pallets then I actually get hit by, despite the 3-ft long hitbox it has. No generally my problem is people spamming flashbang and flashlight and blast mine and head on and boil over and sabotage to basically remove any gameplay the killer has and make a game hilariously unfun.

No. The game is designed for Killers to kill survivors and survivors to do generators.

In addition taking away health states does not actually add pressure, only downs and hooks do that. A down survivor can't do generators, an injured one absolutely can, not to mention no matter what Killers cannot spread pressure effectively because of the 4v1, there will always be a generator that is being untouched, there will always be a generator going off, committing to a normal 45 second Chase usually results in multiple generators going off against efficient teams, and this is before we consider time lost from flashlight saves and stuns and wiggle outs with boil over and sabotage etc etc.

Just because I hit someone does not mean that prompts them to completely abandon a generator, so if I hit one person and then abandon the chase to go hit another person and then the first person is already back on the generator did I really actually make up anytime doing that?

Survivors 'tunneling' gens puts the advantage on the Killer side. They either A. group up to give the killer extra pressure, or B. Give the Killer an easy Regression delivery point and Intel where at least 1 person will always be. With B., back in the Pop+Tinker days, I won all too many games ( I honestly didn't deserve to) because Survivors would refuse to find a safer or different gen. 'Tunneling' gens is the Survivor falling prey to sunk-cost fallacy.

Most killer ended tunnel/camp scenarios brush against agency. There is no agency in being camped, or being tunneled in certain deadzones. No matter what you do on hook, in the camping scenario an extra hook state will be juiced. Even worse, you see your soloq Surv teammates doing the worst thing imaginable, a 61s rescue (the second after you hit 2nd state on hook, so the killer can turbotunnel you out of the game).

In the case of tunneling, it typically is a deadzone around the hook because the survivor wouldn't have gone down and dropped the pallet if it wasn't. Also many maps are swapping from fair windows to either 1 or 2 God windows and/or 25 unsafe pallets. You can be bloodlusted at those Borgo/Garden pallets, even if the Killer doesn't have a power to shortcut the chase. That basically means every surv is on a 15s-25s timer after getting unhooked, even when they play the best they can (on newer maps).

When a Survivor dies, they can't play the game anymore. When the gens pop, the Killer is still allowed to play, and potentially get that NWO+Blood Warden play. Even if the Killer doesn't have the perks, they can take advantage of the Surv misplays, and maybe get some extra kills out of the match. The game is horribly balanced with 3 players, so it can feel like an exploit to break the game so soon. In a normal killer match, I usually base my strategy around 1/1/1/1, or 1 on hook, 1 in chase/pressured, 1 for rescue/healing after rescue, 1 on gens. If you drop that to 3 players, there is no one to do gens, so it is just waiting for the Killer to win instead. To be fair, if someone AFKed from the start I typically go for risky plays in the 1v3 (as Killer), both to learn more tactics, and to give them a chance to get some BP or otherwise play the game.

Purposely sending a player out of the match can in essence, kind of hold the player hostage in spirit. In a SWF, they aren't playing until the rest of their group dies also. This makes new players (because the new player is dying first more often in a SWF) have to AFK before they are allowed to learn the game again, a horrible experience, which made 2 of my friends (that otherwise would be willing to play) hard quit learning the game. Also even if it isn't a SWF, the Killer's build is hidden until the match is over, (which is never explained in-game, and shouldn't happen in soloq regardless) so if you are learning and want to know how or why the Killer was able to do something, you have to wait.

I agree the problem lies in 'efficiently' playing should be the most fun way to play for everyone. It should be better rewarded to spread the pressure, than focus fire someone out of the game (basekit lesser Grim Embrace that can proc twice, but only if no one is dead). I would go as far as to say soloing gens should be less efficient as well. Healing should be greater incentivized (as both a form of slowdown and BP). Also it should be more punishing to tunnel and camp (only camping was proposed to be nerfed so far with the anti-facecamping measure, even basekit BT backfires as an anti-tunnel mechanism). If a player never did a conspicuous action off of hook, there should be some sort of indicator (maybe glow blue and lose collision) and a tougher time to go for them (maybe built in current perk DS).

I will never even really understand what the term gen rushing even means. So I'm supposed to just stand there for 20 seconds before I start a gen? Maybe blow it up a couple of times on purpose? Killers can kill without tunneling and camping, Survivors just have to try and do gens as efficiently as possible as it's the only way multiple people are going to survive.

...incoming "but tunneling and camping are the most efficient ways to kill". The easiest way, sure. But I play against plenty of Killers who win or do well by spreading hooks and only camp and tunnel when wisely strategic, not play like those are the end-all be-all ways to win. I would gladly take nerfs to gen speed perks and toolboxes, give Killers basekit Corrupt and see what happens. I bet bad Killers will STILL act like they need to camp/tunnel and STILL find a way to cry about gen speeds.

Pretty much nothing you just said is true, but I feel so ######### today that I'm struggling to bother.