Visit the Kill Switch Master List for more information on these and other current known issues: https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/kb/articles/299-kill-switch-master-list
We encourage you to be as honest as possible in letting us know how you feel about the game. The information and answers provided are anonymous, not shared with any third-party, and will not be used for purposes other than survey analysis.
Access the survey HERE!
Nerdy maths post about Knight and his guard ranges (pls make map base kit)
Heyo.
To mathematically prove why map of the realm should be base kit, and why you should use map of the realm every match on knight, I made a graph.
To sum up how guard placement and vision expansion works:
- It takes 1.5s for the guard to spawn in
- After that time, the guards starts moving on the patrol path, and their vision expands to its max range over the course of 1s
- For that one second, the guard will have travelled 1 x (their patrol movement speed), which since the vision radius always comes from the centre of the guard, will have an effect on how quickly the vision radius expands
- If you're a total numbers nerd and want to know more about knight (or any killer for that matter), I'd look on the wiki under their power trivia.
Firstly, the speed at which the vision expands in a certain direction after the guard is placed can be written as:
Where m is the movement speed of the guard on patrol, r is the vision range, and a is the angle deviation the survivor is running at from the patrol path. Where the Y axis is distance in m/s, and the X axis is time in seconds.
For those that don't know, the main focus point of this post will be on the assassin and the carnifex, who both have a default range and expansion time (r) of 8m or 8m/s, and a base patrol speed (m) of 3.4m/s. So that's what I'll be using. Jailer is a special case.
Using my 10 minute paint skills, here's a visual representation:
By plotting the survivors movement speed (4m/s, blue) and seeing the points of intersection, we see when the guards vision range finally hits the survivor.
So, at an angle of 0 (worst case scenario, guard walks away from the survivor):
It would take 10s over a distance of 46m in order to catch up with the survivor. Which obviously is outside of the default 8m range and 1s expansion time.
At an angle of 180 degrees (best case scenario, guard walks towards the survivor):
It would take just under a second, over the course of 9ish meters in order to catch the survivor. Which is once again outside of the base range, but inside the 1s time frame.
WHAT THIS MEANS: Assuming you land the guard on the exact spot the survivor, the guard will NEVER detect them assuming they run in a straight line away from it in any direction. This is WITHOUT map of the realm.
With map of the realm, the max vision range increases to 12m, and the expansion time to 12m/s. So we can replace r with 12.
Worst case:
It would take just over a second, and just under 12m for the guard to detect. 10x better than no map.
Best case:
It would take 8m, and half a second to detect. Finally we have a value that actually detects the survivor.
Now of course this isn't realistic, there are a bajillion other factors that go into whether a guard detects a survivor, but it still helps push the point that knight without map of the realm is borderline unplayable if you want to go for fun guard predictions.
Some other facts messing about with this:
- In order to get detected 100% of the time if you land a guard on top of a survivor, the vision range would have to be 13.4m
- The add on "gritty lump" makes your worst cases worse, but makes your best cases better. Very risky add on to bring
- In order to guarantee the guard detects a survivor with map, they must run at an angle at least 55 degrees or more, and less than 305 degrees (circle moment)
- Jailor is special, but would still highly benefit from having his range increased from 14m to 18m considering he is the weakest in chase
If my maths is wrong please tell me cos i'm ngl I have a maths exam upcoming and I'd rather make a mistake here than in that.
Comments
-
Hey mate, first things first, love a good knight and mathematics enthusiast, great job on the development you did mate. Amazing stuff and thank you for showing how important is to have map of the realms basekit. this add on (and also call to arms in my opinion) are both necessary for the knight, sadly.
That being said, let me tell you that even though the math is nice, I have found some issues with your development. First, the speed of expansion is the same for all directions, is just that the center of expansion in going down by the speed of the guard. This leads to an issue with your development, in which in order to be valid, the angle of the distance vector between the guard and the survivor MUST BE CONSTANT, which is clearly not the case in this scenario. This makes some of the results you have shown incorrect.
THAT BEING SAID, the best and worse cases that you have shown should be correct, since in these specific scenarios, the angle of the distance vector remains the same throughout the simulation (0 degrees for worst case and 180 degrees for best), so all of that argument makes sense as far as I can tell, any other case is going to be something in between. Therefore, seeing your results, I can say that.
- The best and worse case scenario examples are correct.
- The at least 13.4m argument is also correct, since you have the circle expanding 13.4-3.4=10m in the y axis and the survivor making 4*2.5=10m of distance from the guard.
- sadly, the limit angle of 55 degrees argument cannot be guaranteed. but considering that the distance angle is diminishing over time, I can tell that the limit angle is going to be higher than this (55 degrees is NOT ENOUGH to catch a survivor in this scenario). Also, I did not do the calculations for this, so I cannot tell if you are considering 8m radius or 12m, can you be a little more specific?
- Jailor will always catch a survivor (14m radius) is also correct (edit: actually, not true because his patrol speed is 4.1m/s, this means that he does not catch survivors all the time, but should still catch in most cases and will always catch survivors with map of the realms).
- Gritty lump argument is correct, but I do not think will be so impactful in any of these cases, but it will make the distance angle diminish faster, so it will make the limit angle even worse.
- Just an observation, your y=(r-cos(a)m)(x-1.5) is only correct for time bigger than 1.5s, I understand the reason why you wrote this way since it will give you the behavior of the distance after the spawn time, but you could make a little observation in this case.
Once again, good job, if you want to do the simulations considering the angle shifting, you can define the angle of distance by a = arctan(4*sin(a)*x/(4*cos(a)*x+m*(x-1.5))), then you can add three vectors of velocity (guard movement, survivor movement, and radius expansion, and integrate over time, and that should give you a better result. I do not have the time to do all the development, so good luck if you wish to try :)
OBS: all of this argument takes in consideration the scenario of the guard dropping on the survivor (best case scenario during a chase), which is super hard and in my opinion should always result in a confirmed chase due to the perfection required from the play
1 -
2 -
Never in my fifteen years of teaching have I seen math this bad
3 -
L + ration plus your wrong
0 -
I use map of of the realm+dried horse meat every match on him. it sucks that only assassin can counter hold-w with dried horse meat. I think carnifex should also be able to counter hold-w and get hits. Map of the realm is pretty essential for him. Knight is almost unplayable in my opinion without the map.
0 -
My reaction to that information
0 -
1 -
I agree for the most part. I think that halving the effects of Dried Horsemeat, Call to Arms, and Map of the Realm, and then making them all base-kit would be better than just having MotR base-kit. Since Knight currently has no reason to run any add-ons besides those 3.
Actually, he could do with a full add-on pass as well. Whoever thought that having two add-ons that make your guards inflict Mangled and Haemorrhage separately, rather than inflicting both as a single add-on, needs to have their frontal lobe checked.
0 -
You can definitely play him without the map if you use Iridescent Banner + Call to Arms for an end-game build. And focus on using your guards for zoning rather than getting into chases. But there's no denying that most of Knight's add-ons are garbage.
0 -
iri banner is worthless man. I rather use his iri exposed add-on and 3 gen. call to arm is feels good add-on. Its not really needed but it is decent for drawing trails. The problem is that if you use call to arms, then you need to use dried meat for Assassin to hit people because his base-kit cannot hit anyone that is running forward. As this post explains, if you put a guard directly on top of the survivor, the guard statistically cannot detect you if you run forward in any direction because radius is too small without map of the realm. You have a problem where you need 3 add-on's but can only select two of them.
I still think Knight guards should gain 1-5% increase movement speed based off length of patrol path. the fact you need dried horsemeat to make 1/3 of your guard(Assassin) relevant for hits is silly. What is worse is that Assassin hitting a survivor is not really reliable either. Lots of investment for inconsistent reward.
0 -
The banner is far from worthless. The ability to block windows isn't too useful most of the time. But being able to stop survivors from leaving through the gates is a free kill if you're close enough. The effect even lasts long enough to place down a 2nd guard before the survivor can escape. So not even bodyblocking can save them!
The Knight's Contract is by far Knight's most problematic add-on and just encourages you to face-camp people to death. It needs to be re-worked.
Whereas Call to Arms is amazing and makes Knight better at everything he does. It isn't a "feel good" add-on. It's a straight upgrade that massively boosts his power. And is especially useful on large maps where Knight often struggles.
I don't know what you're talking about with the guards. Both Carnifex & the Assassin can catch people if you create a max-length patrol path and the survivor runs in a straight line. Horsemeat helps definitely, but you can still land hits without it. Making all guards 5% faster would be such a massively over-tuned buff and would easily make Knight one of the most oppressive killers in the game. Most of the value from his guards isn't being able to land hits. Isn't zoning survivors out and herding them where you want them to go.
I'm telling you this as one of the most experienced Knight mains, (Not that there's many of those), that you need to spend more time playing him before you can make judgements about him.
0 -
that is wrong. Carnifex can never hit people if a player runs in straight line/routes correctly. Awhile back, I showned some math that proves that he can never hit anyone. Assassin also cannot statistically hit anyone that plays survivor correctly at base-kit. He can only hit survivor IF its max patrol path and you have dried horsemeat add-on. This is not guaranteed but it is very close to guaranteed
Now if we talk about this post, it is true that if you do not use Map of the realm, you can statistically run forward in any direction and the Assassin guard & Carnifex will never be able to begin the chase.
I would argue that if your detecting people mid-chase(Excluding Jailer) or getting any hits with any guard without these add-on, you are facing bad survivors that are not playing against the knight properly and do not understand the numbers of these guards.
I think iri banner is a joke meme add-on and is one of add-on that need rework. Knight's Contract can be strong but I think they need remove the whole 'require 4 guards' and just make it work on every guard. Call to arm is not bad add-on but because of statistics on how guards work and the base-kit detection being poor, The other two add-on are superior because of how vital those statistics are. You can run Call to arm+Map of the realm but then you can only Zone survivors using his guards and not get actual hits. The obvious issue is that you can do that without call to arms so there is no point in that add-on if you are not drawing long patrol paths to get hits. Knight issue is that he wants 3 add-on base-kit but can only pick two. The other two are superior.
Making all guards 5% faster would be such a massively over-tuned buff and would easily make Knight one of the most oppressive killers in the game.
I disagree. It would put him exactly where he needs to be. Highly rewarding killer to play when played properly.
0 -
Tldr + no buffs needed for one of the worst designed killers in the game
0
