Skull Merchant - You cant win with a 3 Gen
Let me explain it.
You can't win against a Skull, when she has a 3 Gens. There is no way. She only places 3 Drones, so you can't destroy all, all off them use overcharge so your Gen has a regress. She just moves from Gen to Gen.
Just give her a radius between the Drones, where she can't place another drone, so she can do a 2 gen but not 3. This should be more fair. And this is just swf we played it perfect and it didnt work. in SoloQ you can just dc
Comments
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The only tip I can think of against a Skull merchant in this situation, would be to pressure all three gens at the same time if you have 3+ people, If you get exposed the killer will either chase you giving time to do the gen, or leave you and keep kicking gens. The drones do nothing to physically stop people from doing gens but does make the killer have no TR so you have to play very cautiously to not get snuck up on. It takes some time and coordination on survivors part but its possible to win.
If you have a 4 swf at the end you can pressure two gens by two stacking with prove on each one, but its best to keep progress on all the gens.
If you are a duo, its much harder, again possible but harder. That its usually easier/faster to just give the 3K and hope for hatch.
Just don't be afraid of the drones, 3 gen killer players very rarely are good in chase, so if you are exposed just do your best to stall for time or loop until the killer gives up and goes back to gens.
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BHVR better rework her I can't be asked making any more discussions about her, literal waste of time.
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She really needs a rework. A killer's most viable strategy shouldn't be 3-genning.
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You can't do it. I had a game the other day where she hard tunneled one survivor out then sat on her gens. My team was solos but good. Two of us stayed on one side to pressure two gens, the other stayed on the other and pressured the farther gen. Honestly the communication couldn't have been better even if we had comms. Game took half an hour but eventually I got sloppy and exposed on a 90% gen and got downed. Game over after that. My mistake and I own up to it but honestly I was just bored.
I think if she had a hefty cooldown on activating drones remotely or if survivors didn't have to stare at them for ten seconds before doing anything with them she'd be a lot more tolerable. She already has incredible and versatile add-ons. She'd be fine with a little nerf.
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I had a 3 map escape against a 3-genning Skull Merchant. It's most certainly possible.
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Yes you can win.
Your team needs to commit to a 3 gen to break it.
Preferably early on.
Someone might get hooked for it but it's fine.
A 3 man escape is still a survivor win.
What remains true is that a disorganized and undecisive team can't break a good 3 gen... it's the beauty of SM and why it's my favorite killer alongside the Knight.
Divide and conquer!
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No its not. We pressure 2 gens, each gen with 2 people and prove. It wasn't possible. Here, Overcharge carry, and you can destroy the drones only after 5/6 Seconds. And you don't get exposed, that's stupid.
And to the other Person dont say we have to commit in the early. she runs straight to the 3 Gens. Bullshit.
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Of course it's possible to beat it, it was near impossible during CoB era. All perks of that build got nerfed hard.
Currently, it's git gud issue.
She is not even strongest killer to hold 3-gen. If you don't know how to deal with it, I can lock you with many other killers.
Legion, Demogorgon, Knight, Wesker, Hag, Artist
Top killers (Nurse, Blight, Spirit) are good too, but they don't need to do it.
First thing is to beat 3-gen at start, but you finish whatever gen you see, get locked later and act surprised.
Don't ever leave gen above basement to late game.
Then you have midwitch, good luck there.
There is very little killers that will hold 3-gen from start. Most of them will try to save game with 3-gen simply when they get into 2 gens left with not enough hooks.
They have two options, tunnel someone out or hold 3-gen. Not sure which one survivors hate more.
Third option is lose, but don't be entitled.
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So isn't issue survivor's skill instead?
Of course it's impossible to win against anything when survivors suck.
That's not killer issue.
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The problem with skull woman is that she is uniquely equipped to hold and keep a three gen from the very start. Every killer can three gen to different degrees, but nobody else can sit on it until the survivors get bored with to start making mistakes or hard throw.
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She also can't sit on it.
She can have drones there, those won't kill you.
She is M1 killer, she needs to walk there, which takes time. She needs to down you, unless you screwed it, she is not able to do it fast enough.
In 3-gen you don't really need to pressure three gens, you need two. One is usually in corner of the map, good luck doing that.
On maps that have good 3-gen like saloon or RPD, I always try to finish it first.
The amount of killers that forced 3-gen from start is about amount of squads with 4x BNP. It's not regular thing, because it's boring for everyone.
I usually resort to 3-gen when multiple gens were finished before managed to get second hook.
3-gen is tool to comeback as killer. If you prefer to get tunneled, then nerf 3-gen.
Skull merchant can have drones on two gens, so what?
I don't mind being exposed, it's good bait to make her commit. I just need survivor behind me to take hit if needed. That's why you pressure two gens.
If she commits, then second team can finish their gen.
Nurse holding blink being able to get into all gens is way more scary.
Wesker getting everyone infected without spray cans left sucks too.
Knight can damage gens more and get into two chases at the same time.
Blight can commit and get back to gens fast.
Demogorgon can easily detect any survivor working on gen and teleport behind them. Use STBFL for fast down.
Artist shooting crows to gens from far away.
Legion can get everyone injured easily inside 3-gen, get everyone mending and get a down.
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Every killer's most viable strategy is 3-genning, though. There are some that aren't quite as good as Skull Merchant at doing it with their powers, like Trapper or Sadako, but every killer gets the most benefit from sticking by three generators that are very close together.
Most killers (including SM) are able to perform without doing that, and no killer (including SM) benefits from never committing to any down or chase outside of the 3-gen, so the problem isn't strength. The problem is that a killer player is capable, if they really want to and are patient enough, of stalling the game forever by simply never leaving that territory.
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You know she is a major issue cause even some popular survivor main streamers may even dc/give up on her immediately and that says alot.
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no... she's not.
quit being scared of a literal yellow circle if she's at the other end of the map and do the gen.
Stop acting like SM is so bad, she's really isn't, in fact, try to play her until you get to fight decent survivors and you'll see what I mean.
The reason she's effective at low MMR is purely PSYCHOLOGICAL, people constantly makes the worst decision ever as survivors and try to pin it on the killer.
It's the "new killer" syndrome, except on this one particular killer... the syndrome will last until the survivors stop being so irrationnal about how to tackle that killer's power.
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everything you said was absolutely true in anything but a 3swf; people that are 2swf/ soloq just dont have the coordination to break the 3gen
overcharge is useless though, it actually makes the gen regress LESS at the start.
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2 SWF can break 3-gen.
Against 3 gen you usually want to pressure mainly 2 gens anyway (someone brave can try to sneak for third, but two are usually enough)
Then it's easy
1) work on gen
2) prerun when killer goes towards you
3) go back on gen when killer goes to different gen
4) repeat until you finish gen or killer commits to chase
Even all soloQ can break 3-gen, if they are all decent and know what to do.
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sounds like a "git gud" issue.
high MMR survivors, even in solo Q, have the wits to understand how to play against her.
Ignorance is no excuse.
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The killer is plain boring. I have yet to see one exciting match with her. It's always the same thing. She either forces 3gen, or she looses. One way or another, the games are always horrible. Better to just take an L and be done with the game ASAP. You can have at minimum 2 other fun games in same time as her snooze fest. After such a ling time, I cba if I won or lost that match
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She literally is a legion 2.0 lol just so boring.
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The problem is you can't prerun if you don't know where she is at with the Oblivious addon on a map like meat plant
I don't get how some people do these so called "solution" comments when it doesn't even work out in real gameplay
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I've played her with chase perks and have been very successful simply because survivors have VERY predictable patterns when facing her, no slow down needed.
It's a boring killer to play against because of the way the survivors approach the killer.
They try to push one by one like they usually do with other killers and that ends up in a stand still.
That's why I like her so much.
The only way survivor can win is if they actually push at least ONCE as a team to break the 3 gen.
but survivors don't want to learn how to play, they want free gen rush wins with BNP and prove thyself.
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I sense someone who has never been 3genned by the mid merchant
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SM is one of my main.
Some survivors are good, but you are bad, I can't help you.
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bc git gud is a very good rebuttal
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I mean, that's what survivors says to killers when we say that nerf gen perks is unhealthy and here we are, in a boring gen rush meta where killers barely interact with survivors that are actively avoiding chases as hard as humanly possible.
Git gud is a two way street I guess.
Welcome to SM and Knight doing 3 gens because that's how you counter gen rushes, deal with it.
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genrushing? just git gud, gens getting finished it 20s is completely balanced and counterable and also super fun and interactive for both sides.
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It doesn't work on specific maps like The game or midwitch and with specific add-on.
It still works in general.
She doesn't really need to 3-gen there tho. She is really strong on those maps, soloQ is unlikely to beat that unless she is bad.
But those two are not really known for 3-gen. Worst offenders are saloon and RPD.
On both of them you have line of sight to do this.
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This killer is the only reason why I would ever bring genrush build. But it's so boring, that I would rather take an L then have all my games miserable. She is the reason why people should just in case bring BNP's and other genrush perks.
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Brings gen rush builds to SM
SM is good against gen rush
Survivor complain on forum about SM.
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2 commodiuses with 2 BNP's in your 3gen and the game suddenly looks very different. Do this as 4 man and even SM stands no chance. Especially her, as the only thing she can do is hold her 3gen.
But that's besides the point. I don't want to play BNP's every game just in case it's SM and just to reduce 40mins game into 8-15mins. It would make much more sense to adjust SM and be done with it.
Also taking BNP's against "normal" killers feels bad. It's like taking MDR+amulet spirit every game just in case I get 4BNP's survivors. I rather go next then have all the games boring because I am afraid of 1 of those few games (thankfully most people don't like merchant. That's the only saving grace).
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We're aware of the issue surrounding the "3 gen strat" - we did comment as much in the patch notes for the PTB with the proposed slight buff to Deja Vu to help with the issue in the short term whilst we come up with a longer term solution. So this is something that is on our radar.
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I am happy u r looking into it. Keep up the good work :)
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I dont understand why more survivors try to break a 3 gen in the beginning of the game, when there are still 4 survivors. I so often see survivors go to from gen to the next one without thinking. Like on the garden map, u always have a 3-4 gen around the main building. Yet often times exactly these are the ones, survivors wanna do last. You can play strategically as survivor too.
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Depends on MMR probably
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In reality,
all the nerfs to 3 gens strats have been doing is pad the stats of low-skill survivors playing poorly... helps their ego a bit I guess...
That's not the issue.
The issue is that these 3 gen strats were THE LAST BASTION for killers to try to win vs good gen rushing survivors running the BNP/Prove thyself combo. SM and Knight were a gift from god to that end too.
Between all the killers nerfs and all the base kit freebies the devs keeps pouring on survivors... the killer role as become tedious, unfun when not downright UNPLAYABLE (M1 killers are dead).
Now they will be getting free deliverance on top of all that, it's pure insanity.
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And skull merchant can't win without it either.
Needs a total rework, making her useless in the meantime would be unsatisfactory.
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This is only a problem when skull merchant camps gens from the beginning. Other three gens are survivor mistakes and honestly the only way to play low tier killers.
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The thing that makes me lose my mind is that in comp play, SM could make a game last for sure but would generally end up losing down the line anyways.
Welp, better nerf SM!
For the love of god!
Buff her so she can at least win SOME games!
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Exactly, therefore what can you even do on those maps? It does not matter how close or far the gens are if you cannot see or know where she is, with her knowing EXACTLY where you are at all times unless you hide the whole match not doing gens
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Think the last few skull merchants i went against had 1-3 hooks
she can stall the game for a bit but seems to still lose anyway
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What about creating an anti 3 gen perk?
Here's my idea.
Boon: Telepathic Energy
When repairing a generator for 3 seconds, press active ability button to mark a generator to activate the perk. Only one generator may be marked.
When Boon:Telepathic Energy activates:
Press and hold the Active Ability button near a Dull or Hex Totem to bless it and create a boon totem.
The survivors in 24 meter radius of the boon totem that repair a generator will instead repair the marked generator at 0.25/0.30/0.35 efficiency. While the generator is being repaired, The marked generator cannot be blocked and cannot be kicked.
When marked generator is completed, the totem is automatically snuffed and the perk deactivates.
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Like very interesting idea. It has just a tiny problem. You don't need it until you find yourself facing skull merchant.
This is the same problem as old boil over - you don't need iron grasp or agitation, so long as you don't get 4man abusing old boil over in some vertical map. The idea to fix the problem with perk just in case it's X is not a good solution really. It's better to solve X rather then creating perk bandaid for it.
That being said - the perk would still be interesting niche perk after the real problem gets solved.
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after real problem gets solved? you mean before it get solved because after it get solved, you have no reason to use the perk.
A perk that allow you to manipulate the distance of gen-spreads on command is extremely powerful and has to have large drawbacks. you can technically use the perk in normal gameplay but it will not be faster to repair gens then simply going to gen and directly repairing it.
In my opinion, it will like not be solved because 3 gens have been part of the game since the start. The only way you can organically solve it is by changing the maps and where generator spawn. Making the maps bigger makes it easier to solve because the gen spread is often naturally large, though you should know what killer think about big maps like Red Forest and Original Eyrie crows. Killer often express dissatisfaction and discontent when playing big maps.
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It can still work as a niche perk for soloQ where you somehow count on your teammates creating 3gen.
Sure. It should not be good at it's job and I agree with everything else you wrote - it is map issue and red forest (but I should be more specific, because temple is OK in my opinion, but mother's dwelling is just problematic) is in my eyes about as problematic (just in an opposite direction) as say azarov's 3-4gen or saloon's 3gen that you will get there every single game.
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you can beat it as SWF, but those 3-gen are hard to beat for soloQ.
Best you can do is always try to not get into 3-gen situation -> try to remove it asap. Most killers won't hold 3-gen from start, they will patrol around, but still commit to some chases before they get low on gens.
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Oh no no no.
the LAST thing we need is bigger maps. Maps are HUGE already.
what we need, is to understand that these stalemates have been fueled by all the free stuff given to survivors over time.
The kill rate on almost all killers is well below the targeted 60% and it shows.
It shows by games that, on paper, the killer SHOULD have won by then... but survivor keeps abusing whatever basekit options they have and put the game in a limbo state where all the killer can do is baby sit gens.
Buff killers and I guarantee games will actually stop being locked in forever 3 gens, killer will either win or lose but quicker.
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You kind of answer your own question here. If Skully is holding a 3 gen from the beginning of the game, there are some variables in play.
Like you mentioned, some maps already start with a 4 gen right away. If you do break the 3 gen immediately, congratulations! You get another 3 gen in the exact same spot for your troubles!
If instead, you do the other gens on the map and try to eliminate the possibility of Skully just holding the next 3 closest gens, then you want to break the 3 gen last. Which of course leads to the 'YoU dId ThIs To YoUrSeLvEs' problem.
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Loads of people have think the last one me an my mate had she got 1 hook lol
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Most don't yeah but some skull merchants can see a 3 gen and simply act like it's the only ones and prevent the survivors from ever breaking it
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sure, it can happen. I consider that equivalent of actual genrush squad.
Both are very hard to beat, but you don't see it often, because both are really boring.
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