Windows of Opportunity - OP?

Options
Kaitsja
Kaitsja Member Posts: 1,718

Apparently WoO is now an overpowered perk because it has the highest usage rate. My question to you, the community (admittedly a small part of the community), is whether or not the perk itself is a problem or if it's maps that allow strong loops to be chained together that is the problem?

Due to its usage rate, WoO is being likened to pre-nerf DH and DS which were must-pick perks due to how you could use DH to extend chases and DS to get a free escape in EGC. These two perks dominated the charts in terms of usage rate.

«1

Comments

  • Rogue11
    Rogue11 Member Posts: 1,354
    Options

    "Fix maps" meaning what? What's your idea of a "balanced" map?

    Windows was always strong and provided the same information it does now. You just had to at least slightly use your brain to remember the information it gave between cooldowns.

    Having more resources on maps without a GPS system to optimally run them is a much better solution then "Oh my gen is next to a rock and 2 trees so guess I'll die"

  • EmmaFrostyEyes
    EmmaFrostyEyes Member Posts: 685
    Options

    A balanced map is something like dead dawg or some of the autoheaven maps. Nerfing windows does nothing but keeps good players the same and casual have a worse experience. Nerfing windows doesnt do anything to stop good players from destroying killers on garden of joy. Nerf the maps like that and it will be fine.

    again windows had a cool down before and it sucked as a perk. No one used it. Even when the maps were even more heavily survivor sides no one used it. Nerfing to crappy perk again does nothing positive. The perk is needed for new players and solo que. Swf already has voice chat and if they are a good swf they dont need the perk anyway

  • EmmaFrostyEyes
    EmmaFrostyEyes Member Posts: 685
    Options

    Here are two killer mains giving their take as well

  • Witchubtet
    Witchubtet Member Posts: 640
    Options

    I dont See it as a Problem. It could use a small nerf maybe but nothing game changing. Perhaps a cooldown after vaulting or pallet dropping for ten seconds? Nothing to like how DS, DH, COH, HR, Or Eruption were nerfed though.

    If they REALLY want to not add a cooldown or update then as a nuclear option they could add an effect onto it that discourages you from constantly running if. I’m not advocating for that however but it’s a thought.

  • SpiritsHusk
    SpiritsHusk Member Posts: 169
    Options
  • Kaitsja
    Kaitsja Member Posts: 1,718
    Options

    The problem is, why nerf it to begin with? What does Windows do, other than show you the auras of map resources? Nothing. It has no other effect, and is completely counterable via blindness add-ons. A good killer also knows how to direct chases away from strong loops.

    Strong loops should be weighted to spawn as far away from each other as possible. For example, Shack is a strong loop so it would make sense to have a strong loop spawn on the opposite end of the map to killer shack, so as to prevent chaining the two loops together.

    In a match where all players are of average skill, a chase should take no longer than 35 seconds. Anything more, and your chances of getting a 4k as killer drop significantly.

  • Rogue11
    Rogue11 Member Posts: 1,354
    Options

    Ah yes the tiny maps that have guaranteed 3 gens and/or are frequently filled with empty junk tiles and deadzones. That's what I figured you would give as an example. GoJ can be toned down without turning it into hold W to nowhere simulator.

    No one used WoO before because old DS, DH,Iron Will, etc., were better choices. WoO started creeping in when those perks were nerfed. Then they gave it a massive unnecessary buff on top.

  • Rogue11
    Rogue11 Member Posts: 1,354
    edited June 2023
    Options

    "Why nerf it to begin with?"

    Because knowing where every map resource is at all times is a massive advantage.

    Because as I said before, the game isn't balanced around running optimally every chase.

    Because it incentivises braindead hold W chases instead of taking full advantage of whatever tiles are closest to you. Without GPS guiding you to the next resource, you have to weigh the risks of leaving your current tile where you know you have something to work with vs the next tile that could have nothing. You might even have to consider taking a few seconds to check your surrounding tiles instead of immediately slamming the closest gen.

  • Xernoton
    Xernoton Member Posts: 5,382
    Options

    WoO is one of these perks, that I love as a survivor and hate as a killer.

    It's pretty much a manual on how to play the game as survivor. So it definitely isn't surprising that many players (myself included) run it.

    On the other hand, WoO makes even inexperienced survivors pretty hard to catch sometimes. That is mostly because maps are mostly so stacked, that you can delay the killer by pre dropping, pallet camping and Shift + W keying for quite a while.

    In my opinion Windows is not the problem but a symptom of it. Map design is really to blame here.

  • nars
    nars Member Posts: 1,124
    Options

    Balanced perk, especially helpful in soloQ. I personally don't like it bc I feel it dumbs you down a little, since it gives you all the pathing you need.

    only issue with it is how you can chain 8 pallets because windows showed you where they are

  • Annso_x
    Annso_x Member Posts: 1,611
    Options

    I use WoW because visibility on some maps sucks, and even more against some killers (Nightfall, deep wound...).

    It's also really useful because I can know where my teammates dropped pallets so I can avoid unsafe areas.

    Alhought WoW helps new players learning how to loop (which is a good thing), survivors who already know how to loop, chain or hold w can very much still do it without WoW bc in the end it's just an info perk.

  • fulltonon
    fulltonon Member Posts: 5,762
    edited June 2023
    Options

    If WoO becomes OP, that is pretty much equivalent to maps being OP.

  • Chocolate_Cosmos
    Chocolate_Cosmos Member Posts: 5,468
    Options

    It's more of a problem with maps than this perk.

  • Blinckx
    Blinckx Member Posts: 426
    Options

    Make WoO a radius like perk ( you'll see pallet in a 12m area ) and fix the maps

    There you go, problem solved

  • ratcoffee
    ratcoffee Member Posts: 1,165
    Options

    The problem is maps, and the reason it's so highly used is because it gives extremely useful info that you can't get from the survivor action HUD

  • Xernoton
    Xernoton Member Posts: 5,382
    Options

    That's like saying infinite aura reading won't help in chase.

    The chase becomes much easier with WoO. That isn't necessarily a bad thing but it is something that should be considered.

  • Chordyceps
    Chordyceps Member Posts: 1,695
    Options

    Idk about OP, or even problematic, but it's strength should not be underestimated. Knowing exactly where to go for safety can extend your chase times by a lot.

  • lav3
    lav3 Member Posts: 758
    Options

    Not OP. But I don't think it needed buff frankly.

    The perk was already giving enough info with cooldown before.

  • Sometimes_Sage
    Sometimes_Sage Member Posts: 143
    Options

    In a vacuum, the perk isn't too problematic (though you could argue that its range shouldn't extent past one tile). The issue is that the perk allows one to take full advantage of the broken maps.

    So ideally, BHVR should "simply" fix the maps, but I don't think anyone actually expects that to happen.

  • ReikoMori
    ReikoMori Member Posts: 3,333
    Options

    It on it's own isn't that great

    It in the context of maps oversaturated with vaults and palettes can be tedious. It's a perk that allows us to optimize the guess work out of a loop

  • Rogue11
    Rogue11 Member Posts: 1,354
    Options

    "What about the players who already have all that information and don't use the perk?"

    1. Most maps have enough variability that you can't always know where every pallet is. This makes it risky to leave a tile and hold W since you won't necessarily know if the tile you end up at will be useful. Anything that gives some small measure of risk to holding W is a good thing. There's no skill expression from either side in running in straight lines.

    2. Losing chases to a survivor because of a combination of their looping skill, map knowledge, and planning, is an example of skill expression determining the outcome. This should be the goal of a pvp game. If a single perk allows a low skill survivor to have the same chase length as a veteran player, that's the opposite of skill determining the outcome.


    "Players already have this information"

    1. Then why is it the most popular survivor perk??

  • EmmaFrostyEyes
    EmmaFrostyEyes Member Posts: 685
    Options
  • Rogue11
    Rogue11 Member Posts: 1,354
    Options

    Problem: perk that let's survivors optimally use map resources every chase with no downside or limitation.

    Solution: remove map resources so survivors have nothing to do in chase but die.

    🤔

  • BarnesFlam
    BarnesFlam Member Posts: 654
    Options

    Bring back its cooldown.

  • Seraphor
    Seraphor Member Posts: 9,001
    edited June 2023
    Options

    No I wouldn't say it's OP at all. Players are just coming around to the idea that info perks are actually useful and fairly underrated likely in light of the fact that healing and regression aren't OP anymore, and therefore not the default choice.

  • JustAnotherNewbie
    JustAnotherNewbie Member Posts: 1,941
    Options

    I'm waiting for Bond to be nerfed so survivirs now accidentally bring the killer to their mate working on gens. Survivors should not be able to avoid tiles their mates are working on because it steals the opportunity from a killer to disrupt a gen and get a free hit on the working survivor (possibly even a down cause he might be a weak looper)


    This is of course sarcasm, but I'm just taking this a step further to further nerfing solo survivor (obviously good SWF doesn't care because they already communicate the pallets they used up etc.)

  • lifeisstrange
    lifeisstrange Member Posts: 300
    Options

    Bond is a killer perk LOL. I wont lie that one I would want that nerf people do purposely sandbag with it.

  • Hawk81584
    Hawk81584 Member Posts: 405
    Options

    But killers are ok with tunneling, isn’t that the equivalent to a cheat sheet on your hand gif?

  • EmmaFrostyEyes
    EmmaFrostyEyes Member Posts: 685
    Options

    Fine lets nerf windows, and then youll be complaining about the good survivor perk instead of nerfing the terrible maps like garden of joy, the game, borgo, the new killer map

  • Rogue11
    Rogue11 Member Posts: 1,354
    Options

    I play 90% survivor friendo! I just want skill to matter for both sides and WoO is a perk that facilitates boring playstyles. I feel the same way about killer powers that give no agency to survivors, like Knight and SM.

  • thrawn3054
    thrawn3054 Member Posts: 5,897
    Options

    I didn't say it didn't make it easier. All I'm saying is if you don't know how to use the information it's not going to help that much.

  • solarjin1
    solarjin1 Member Posts: 1,844
    Options

    :)

  • Marc_go_solo
    Marc_go_solo Member Posts: 4,949
    Options

    I cannot recall anybody complaining about this perk before. There is not anything about the perk that can come across to me as overpowered and I'm confused as to how "Windows of Opportunity" can be construed as overpowered.

    It's probably used more because it is very beginner-friendly, as it allows people to learn where to run to and learn the ropes.

    If there are complaints regarding this perk as overpowered, I'm worried about the thinking behind that belief.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,299
    Options

    The problem with that line of logic is that almost everything you've listed did need changing. Prior to 6.1.0, Dead Hard was overwhelmingly overpowered, it desperately needed to be nerfed. Decisive Strike wasn't overpowered, but it was unhealthy due to the way players were using it; the state it was in prior to 6.1.0 was a healthy one and it'll be a healthy perk again with its stun duration increased. Medkits and CoH were also a problem, especially in combination, because ultra-fast self healing is a huge balance problem.

    To the wider topic, I don't think Windows of Opportunity is OP, or anywhere close to your list. I also don't think Sprint Burst needs to be nerfed, though toolboxes obviously do.

    Windows isn't really a huge problem when map resources are balanced, it's just convenient for survivors. You as a killer still have every method of outplaying a survivor available to you, it's not like it shows your aura, and you also have Blindness to turn it off, alongside other aura perks. It only becomes a problem when survivors are on maps with easily chainable safe tiles, and... it's not as though those maps aren't a problem outside of using this perk.

  • Mondhirsch
    Mondhirsch Member Posts: 218
    Options

    A hight pick rate doesn't mean that something is OP.

  • Thusly_Boned
    Thusly_Boned Member Posts: 2,819
    edited June 2023
    Options

    I don't see it as a problem; I see it as a perk for people without a ton of map awareness, which is fine.

    As for myself, I am not at all a great looper, even though after thousands of in game hours I have a ton of map awareness (as much from playing killer as survivor). So being able to see all the resources doesn't mean you'll be able to utilize them efficiently.

    And those experienced players who can really use their resources super efficiently probably aren't the ones running WoO.