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@bhvr what exactly is it about skull merchant holding a 3 gen for an hour that you think is ok?
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Comments
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I don't understand why they prioritized buffing Déjà Vu as if it wouldn't affect killers that don't camp three gens.
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I think the wording was something like we're going to buff this to help while we work on a solution for 3 gens. But skull merchant dropping a drone on a gen and saying lmao good luck doing this will work in any scenario with a moderate 3 gen spread.
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I imagine it'd be "nothing", considering they're not only looking at Skull Merchant but also tackling the 3-gen problem in general too.
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they literally addressed this already and said they're going to rework her + 3-gens will be looked into as a whole with how gens are located on the maps
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Saying something, and doing something, are entirely different. This has been an issue since her release, and it is how she is played 99% of the time. It is an active issue that makes the game miserable, not a "we'll work on it" issue, more like a disable and back to the drawing board issue.
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From PTB to Live she had changes that were aimed at making her more consistent across all playstyles, and after she did hit Live she got some more changes to make her a bit more viable in chase.
They have done something. Twice. Fixes take time and experimentation to develop, and on top of that just changing her has failed twice because the problem is more fundamental than just one killer's kit. Would you prefer them to say nothing while working on it, or acknowledge the problem and tell us that they're working on it?
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I'm saying the issue is significant enough that it's not enough. It isn't just "some" of the time, it's nearly "ALL" of the time that this happens in sm matches. I'd prefer they acknowledge the problem by getting rid of it till they come up with something better. Otherwise the best solution to a sm match is dcing, every time.
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The problem there is that if BHVR disable Skull Merchant until they fix the 3-gen problem, there's nothing actually stopping the players who want to hold a match hostage for 40 minutes from just swapping to the next best killer for it. Disable Knight, and they swap to Artist, disable her and they swap to Doctor, and so on and so forth.
Sure, maybe they'd get discouraged and stop trying, but that's kind of a gamble. If they don't, all you've done is remove SM for the players who want to play her normally/fairly.
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I've yet to play a skull merchant that "want's to play fairly". I know they exist, but it is a tiny, tiny population. Other killers can't hold a 3 gen even remotely as well as SM can. You actually have a chance vs a knight, doctor, artist--as they do not have drones capable of watching all 3 gens for them, that also give them haste/stealth/exhaustion/exposure. You have zero chance against a skull merchant unless your team happened to be prepared and are in comms with brand new parts etc to bust the 3 gen.
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There is no "3 gen problem". The problem is skull merchant being able to camp and hold one from the very beginning. Not every killer can do that, and none of them can do it like she can.
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That does seem to be a bizarrely common sentiment.
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Bless you for thinking it's that fast and easy to do, also disable a character that is just 3 months old + it's on the current tome and has challenges, and they need to keep collecting feedback from. Please, let's be more serious.
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Oh I'm dead serious, when something is so broken it requires fixing rather than excuses.
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I play mainly skull merchant since last month and I prefer playing totem builds with her.
But you are wrong if you think noone has equal or better 3-gen. There are many killers I can hold 3-gen with and most survivors won't break it.
Issue got way better for survivors with how much CoB build got nerfed. Skull merchant is nowhere near as good as she was at 3-gen. She is holding 3-gen using passive regression, but those perks got nerfed hard. They are trash.
Her changes made her 3-gen worse (for her) while buffing her overall chase potencial, which is good.
What killer can I hold 3-gen with to win most of my games?
Wraith, Hag, Legion, Demogorgon, Blight, Nurse, Artist, Knight, Wesker
Currently best killer for 3-gen is Wesker. (you can't play him right now, but otherwise)
When you use Iridescent Uroboros Vial to waste spray on start and just focus on using your power on survivors while defending gens, they will run out of Spray sooner or later, then everyone is slow and you can insta down them.
Skull merchant is better only on some maps, not overall. Midwitch and The Game are kinda end for survivors, unless it's some really good squad. Thing she doesn't have high lethality, she is similar to Legion in this aspect.
It is possible to break her 3-gen. It used to be near impossible, but that was nerfed. If you had 1 hour long game, then it simply means you didn't even try to break her 3-gen and were hiding in corner of the map, which I consider another issue.
3-gen is more of a map issue, Saloon and RPD can be defended with most killers.
But then you have maps like Groaning Storehouse where are two gens impossible to defend for most killers.
That's just overall map design.
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Yes I've faced a 3 gen Wesker, once, at the peak of eruption gameplay (and when I say 3 gen in this context I mean the full sweat lords that go into the game with the intent to hold a 3 gen for an hour and a half if they have to). You know how many 3 gen skull merchants I've faced? All of them. Literally every single one. There is a fundamental flaw with the killer that you can pretend isn't there all you like. And to reference what I've already commented: You actually have a chance vs a knight, doctor, artist--as they do not have drones capable of watching all 3 gens for them, that also give them haste/stealth/exhaustion/exposure.
"Issue got way better for survivors with how much CoB build got nerfed. Skull merchant is nowhere near as good as she was at 3-gen. She is holding 3-gen using passive regression, but those perks got nerfed hard. They are trash." Blatantly false. They were just so strong you now think they're trash. In what world is 100% + regression trash, when you can just set up a drone to watch the gen regress for you? OH someone tried to get rid of the drone, let me drop this chase and head back real quick to reapply the regression and drone. Oh look at that they got exposed and I'm faster, well I guess I'll down them rq because all of the pallets in this area have been used--or they're a good survivor so I'll just return to my gens and watch.
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You put yourself in that position. Stop trying to make the game easier for survivors all the time when you make mistakes.
camping: Go do gens.
tunneling: Learn to evade.
3-gen: Don't leave the last 3 gens close to each other.
Post edited by Gcarrara on1 -
They said they were looking into 3 gens and Skully, so...
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When you face a SM killer, you just find a quick way to move to the next game asap ... there are 10+ different ways to do it ;)
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If you dont want to read the whole post you can just jump to the section were a answered your comment.
@Havocus :
Other killers can't hold a 3 gen even remotely as well as SM can. You actually have a chance vs a knight, doctor, artist--as they do not have drones capable of watching all 3 gens for them, that also give them haste/stealth/exhaustion/exposure.
i just want to tell you that this statement is just wrong. I myself as killer main played 3-gen for a bit (not proud of it and there is no excuse for this) and with the build i used, every killer can hold a 3-gen.
Call of Brine - Overcharge - Merciless Storm - Jolt/Eruption
With this build and by just patrolling the gens and not committing to chases, every killer can hold a 3-gen without breaking a sweat. So 3-genning is not a Skull Merchant problem its a mentality problem. If a killer wants to 3-gen, they can, no matter what killer they can or want to play. (and yes, SM is the "best" for this, but not by much)
Either they change something in general about how gens work in late game or it will be a problem forever. Just reworking Skull Merchant wont get rid of this.
But the problem is not just with the killers but the survivors too (not every one of course). In the current toolbox meta, many killers feel like they have no chance outside of 3-genning. If 4 gens pop within the first 1-minute-chase, you have to understand that this is really frustrating for a killer. And if this happens 3 or 4 times in a row, you have to think of a way to work around this. And 3-genning is the easiest solution for this.
So gen-rushing and 3-genning are just two sides of the same coin, you cant have one and then expect to get rid of the other one.
Yes I've faced a 3 gen Wesker, once, at the peak of eruption gameplay (and when I say 3 gen in this context I mean the full sweat lords that go into the game with the intent to hold a 3 gen for an hour and a half if they have to).
Btw, it is highly possible that this wesker was me, so sorry for that if this was the case.
Cant fix something if you take it out as soon as there is a problem with it. You need a lot of player data to re-balance a killer.
@DaddyMyers_Mori :
Issue got way better for survivors with how much CoB build got nerfed. Skull merchant is nowhere near as good as she was at 3-gen. She is holding 3-gen using passive regression, but those perks got nerfed hard. They are trash.
This is just wrong. regression perks were not nerfed from balanced into thrash, they were nerfed from op to balanced. CoB is still a good perk for regression and also for in-tell. And overcharge, too.
It is possible to break her 3-gen. It used to be near impossible, but that was nerfed.
In my opinion a 3-gen is not breakable for casual survivors. If a killer is intending on a 3-gen from the beginning there is no way to work around it. 3-gen is only breakable if the killer is highly incompetent or the survivors are experts in the game.
In a match were the killer and the survivors a on the approximately same skill level, there is no "breaking out of a 3-gen".
If you had 1 hour long game, then it simply means you didn't even try to break her 3-gen and were hiding in corner of the map, which I consider another issue.
If you dont want to die and also want to repair the gen, what else can you do except sitting on the gen and hide as soon as the killer comes near you, repeating until they get you/until the gen is repaired? For real, tell me what a survivor is supposed to do in your opinion to speed this up and escape?
In a lot of answers, people like you always say that it s possible to break a 3-gen but no one ever writes HOW to do it.
(I am a killer main, never playing survivor and have for real no idea how this should work)
@tubalcane :
Wahhhh 3-gen: Don't leave the last 3 gens close to each other.
Same as i said previously, if a killer is intended on 3-genning from the beginning, this does not work. If a killer WANTS to 3-gen, he can and will do it.
(but you first 2 points a true)
i also think survivor mains complain a bit to much. Some killers are just extremely weak and this since there release (myers, Freddy, Trapper, Pyramid Head, clown). And none of them got changed a lot. Just recently seen with the planned pyramid head buff. While survivors get a new anti-(insert problem)-mechanic/perk almost every season.
@YOURFRIEND :
Nothing in this comment is true, not one single point, bro. Activate your second braincell for just one second, please. You would do every one a big favor. The way you wrote your comment, you never got 3-genned for real in you entire life.
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Tell me you don't know how to read without telling me you don't know how to read.
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Wesker is better at 3-gen, but you are less likely to see it.
Same for Blight and Nurse. Reason is simple, they don't need it.
If you are losing against merchant with CoB build after nerfs, it seems like git gud issue.
And I highly doubt you see that many of them anyway. Merchant is not popular killer. You got destroyed by one and just exaggerate.
CoB in reality regress only few seconds from full gen, nothing worth talking about it.
So you probably just are not able to hit Overcharge skill check.
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In a match were the killer and the survivors a on the approximately same skill level, there is no "breaking out of a 3-gen".
That's not true. Thanks to your wording I can use tournaments. They break 3-gen easily.
Any decent SWF is going to break 3-gen.
Issue is soloQ unless you got lucky on at least two other survivors know what to do. Well, for that you need to know what to do.
Since CoB nerfs I have yet to see any killer going full 3-gen without any commiting to chase.
Most killers try to hold 3-gen, when 3 gens are finished. Alternative is to tunnel someone out.
Most survivors just finish first gens they see and then cry on forum about 3-gen.
If you see killer that is good at 3-gen you better try to break it fast and don't chase killer around that area.
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i assumed soloq for my argument, forgot to specefy that. But this argument does not really work with my headcannon.
If you have one killer with a power level of 10 and a squad of 4 survivors with a power level of 10 each, this is not balanced because 4 coordinated players that are each as good as the killer are better than the killer. Thats what i meant.
Most survivors just finish first gens they see and then cry on forum about 3-gen.
but yes, thats true. many survivors will just get as far away from the killer as possible and make the gens furthest away from him.
Since CoB nerfs I have yet to see any killer going full 3-gen without any commiting to chase.
i did (again not proud of it) and it worked in 9/10 cases.
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They don't think it's ok, they're updating her again in the future and are looking for a way to solve the issue of super lengthy 3 gens as a whole.
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bHVR has already announced they are working on anti 3gen mechanics.
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You said what exactly is it about skull merchant holding a 3 gen for an hour that you think is ok?
I read above and answered. Stop whining about 3 gens and dont make them in the first place. Stop trying to make it even easier for survivors - 20+ pallets, window after window, no penalty for making bad choices, always a window or a pallet or a maze.
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I don't know man - I tried forcing 3-gens a while back and it doesn't really work unless you can kill off at least 1-2 survivors first. It's a lot harder than survivors think it is for killers. Survivors can just tap the gen to stop the kick (again, another advantage that they can just tap the gen and we need to kick and lose valuable time) then w-key away at a pace that is barely a gnats ass slower than the killer. It's easy to get dragged away and 3 good (or even just decent) survivors can definitely beat me when doing this.
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but you did not use my build
Overcharge is the counter to tapping the gen, they get a skill check as soon as they do it.
Well if 4 survivors are still left when you only have 1 gen left its not a good place to be, for every build.
So yes, holding a 3-gen with 4 survivors may be not possible. But like i said previously, works only 9/10 times.
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Lucky it wasn't 1 hr lol
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Overcharge is the counter to tapping the gen, they get a skill check as soon as they do it.
what if they can hit that skill check? Overcharge is basically noob stomping perk.
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manly it is, but it helps against survivors who run to a gen mid chase just to tap it for a second to stop the regression.
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They don't think it is ok and they are looking into reworking her, but 3 genning is a systemic problem the game has had for years. It's just that Knight, Skull Merchant, and seemingly now Singularity have just highlighted how messed up gen spawning rules are. Asking them to killswitch a killer over a playstyle while a rework will definitely not be coming for months isn't an option.
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this is not really case in 3-gen situation.
Survivors keep coming back when killer leave to other gen, so you are not really under pressure of being in chase.
1) work on gen
2) prerun if killer is going for you gen
3) go back when killer is going to different gen
4) repeat
Merchant can't really do much to stop this, that's why other killers can have better 3-gen results.
It can take long, but it's hard to screw it as survivor. She simply has low lethality.
Against merchant you can just hold W away from gens and there is nothing she can do about it. That's not really case for some other killers that are good at 3-gen.
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Yes, and the part you're forgetting is when you hold W away, she returns to the generators and the match lasts an hour. The issue is right in front of you yet you just refuse to see it. You'd rather pretend like you know who I am or how I play and assume beyond belief that everyone who brings up an issue is a cry baby survivor main on the forums. If you'd like me to list some assumptions about you let me know.
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Wrong again, Skullmerchants immediately hold 3 gens. The moment they spawn in they find it and set their drones.
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Game will take longer than if killer let you win and escape. Is it an issue tho?
Alternative is to tunnel someone out of the game.
3-gen is equivalent and answer to genrush (actual using genrush perks). If killer lost 3 gens before second hook, they can tunnel or 3-gen. Not hard concept. Unless it's Oni, or some snowball killer.
With perks and toolboxes you can finish your game under 5 minutes. And they keep creating more perks.
Survivors have things to make game faster, killer have things to make it slower.
I realize game is going to take longer, but with what I wrote, you are going to win anyway. I simply don't consider it an issue.
It used to be an issue with CoB build. Even tournament level squads had hard time beat that. But they were nerfed hard. It's not that hard anymore.
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It's simply anecdotal, not a fact. Learn difference, you are not even talking for yourself.
Show me gameplay since CoB nerfs where merchant didn't commit to single chase.
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