A Brief New Proposal to a new MMR System

They don't think it's perfect and they admitted that upfront.

This goes over how the current MMR works in detail.

My question for you is how exactly do you intend to differentiate between common problematic scenarios that happen in the game that effect MMR such as farming, sandbagging, subtle hacking and people getting carried to higher ranks, but as a result being permanently trapped there due to MMR loss protection. Another thing I would ask is how you would deal with the fact that high concentration of hyper efficient players lead to worse overall reported game feel and more stale gameplay. Like it's a very well known concern that players in high MMR don't actually like constantly playing against other high MMR players. The people who do enjoy that level of constant competition tend to not even play regular dbd matchmaking in favor for scrimming with other comp players in customs.

If the calculations are going to be opened up to such a degree a lot of players are going to be shifted into places they actually can't handle or stuck in high MMR hell. How does your system account for and correct these issues

I wouldn't like to face better survivors and coordinated teams just because I don't camp and try not to tunnel.

Not sure where the notion of higher killer mmr being some sort of reward comes from. I only see downsides of it.

This was a refreshing post to read. It would be nice to see killers rewarded for getting hooks and closing chases rather than camping people through hooks states. If you get 10 individual hooks and a 2 or 3K instead of camping people through hook states (Especially with instant down killers). The one who could actually closes more chases should be rewarded more. I do think MMR should be showed so player understand that tunneling doesn't make them a high MMR killer. It just makes your MMR slightly higher than it should be.

I'm also aiming for 12 hook games. That results in a considerably lower mmr than if I tried to get 4k with 0-4 hooks. Currently my casual approach is rewarded by facing similarly casual teams who present a challenge even with my nice and fair playstyle.

In your system trying to get 12 hooks would be punished by going against the most efficient and coordinated teams out there. This makes me glad that bhvr is in charge of matchmaking and not you.

Nope, you misunderstood.

Since getting a 4k with 12 hooks is considerably harder than getting a 4k with 4 hooks, a player who aims for 12 will reach a lower mmr rating than if he'd simply win with 0-4 hooks. In other words, a fair and chill killer player gets easier trials in the current system.

Op's proposition would turn this the other way around. The best facecampers and sluggers would get a low mmr as they wouldn't get many hooks, therefore they'd face new players. A fair killer who sacrifices efficiency for 12 hook trials would get a high mmr, thus he'd face the most experienced and coordinated swfs. It doesn't make the slightest sense, and I can't imagine who'd enjoy that.

I feel this on another level. I primarily solo queue when I play survivor. I've always enjoyed the challenge. However, it's no longer a challenge and it's just rage inducing. I find myself getting angry at my teammates when I'm normally such a very chill person, but I stop myself, because I know, like your screen shots, they probably have a couple hundred hours and are doing their best. It's not that they're bad, they're inexperienced, but I am TIRED of having those as my teammates. I shouldn't feel required to play with friends to actually enjoy the game. Even without comms, just having 1 or 2 good teammates that I know who join me sometimes is a night and day difference. Just knowing I have teammates on the same skill level. I used to get this so often with grade based match making, but I rarely do now. It often leads to someone getting hard tunneled at 5 gens, then I live in a 3 v 1 for the rest of the match. Since this scenario is so common, survivors tend to hard predrop pallets and push gens as quick as possible, so when I play chill as killer to give them a fun match, I'm often blown away how little interaction they want with the killer. They're unbelievably happy to never even make contact with me and can't understand why that is so unenjoyable. I miss versing good survivors when I played killer that wanted interaction. Did I get wrecked a lot? Sure, but you know what? I had fun chases and I GOT BETTER.

That's the thing, though, the same can be done with this system if you want more relaxed games. Focus on going for 12 hooks, run a chill build with no slow down and just see how many you can get. If you don't get 12 hooks, you get easier groups, if you do, then you might have a match where you get harder survivors, but continue your relaxed philosophy and you will go back down easily. I play the same way. I like good survivors, and want a challenge, but unless they ultra rush gens, or hard body block with off the record, I focus on 12 hooks. Do you know what happens right now if I don't 4k? I go back into baby hell where I verse extremely inexperienced survivors and it's misery. I'm tired of the average game people people that just predrop ever pallet and don't look behind them. I want survivors who know how to play, and want to greed pallets, so we can mind game each other. I will still go for my 12 hooks, though and I"ll end up close to average survivors if I don't want to sweat at all, but at least they won't be golden Feng with 98 hrs, because I didn't 4k for one match.

This right here. The people that do nothing but slug and bleed people out will stay in low brackets. Sure, newer people might face them every so often, but as they get better, they will leave them at the bottom of the MMR ladder, so they start going against better killers that actually know how to mind game, etc.

So, the explanation given for an MMR system being based on winrate instead of measuring things within the match of whatever game it was made for is pretty sound and quite relevant here.

The things you want the MMR system to track in your post here are, ostensibly, skilful actions. If players are doing these things, and doing them well, it stands to reason that they're better players and should be winning their games, meaning they need tougher opponents. Here's the snag, though- if doing those things means you're better, and being better means you're winning, isn't it simpler to just... look at how often they're winning? If doing those things means they're winning, it stands to reason that winning means they're doing those things, right?

Winrate is one variable, it is much simpler and easier to keep track of with drastically fewer points of failure or elements that would need to be updated as the game changes. Again, if playing more skilfully means they're winning more, then winning more should theoretically mean they're playing more skilfully.

There are two exceptions to that statement being true, and neither of them mean the MMR system should be built differently.

1: Players abuse things that are too strong to get wins that they couldn't have gotten otherwise, artificially inflating their MMR. Things like old Dead Hard, for example; unambiguously OP and broken. The thing is, you can't build an MMR system around broken elements of the game, or it'd constantly need ground-up adjustments whenever you fix those things- and you do need to fix those things. A matchmaker, necessarily, has to assume that the game is balanced for players of equal skill, or the whole idea of matching people based on their skill level flies out of the window.

2: Players use cheese strategies to win more often. For this game, tactics like tunnelling and camping, for instance. Now, part of the first reason applies here too, but to tackle cheese strats in general; those players should get matched with better players, because otherwise they just keep getting to win with cheese strats against lesser-skilled opponents. They should get matched with players that know how to deal with cheese strats, that's part of a matchmaker's job.

It's just simpler and easily as effective to look at winrate, not track a thousand things happening in the game. An MMR system isn't instant feedback on how you played a match, it's something that looks at a large number of games to gauge how skilled you are, and uses that for matchmaking. That's why you don't see your MMR number unless it's also part of a ranked mode, in most games.

A ranked mode would also use the kind of MMR system we have, though. That's how MMR systems work, the theory works whether you want a regular game mode or a specific ranked mode.

Also, if the pick-ban thing only applies to ranked, that just means the people who want to use those things would go to the regular queue, which would defeat the purpose of trying to section them off into ranked.

Except it isnt, its a perfect valid strategy to force hook stages. Who are you to say that does not require skill? Nobody I ever heard.

It isnt exactly easy to master spatial awareness to make sure you can keep a person from being unhooked or get a trade. Luckily bHVR isn't so sour grapes with what strategies are skilled or not, they keep things open and let us express our different skills. The reason bHVR reduced their mmr system down is because they are open to how players make a choice to play and express themselves, unlike your system which forces a certain playstyle to uphold as the "objective" good one.

Except its not objective and it just alienate others types of players. No thanks.

Your response don't address much. You skirt around the part of my response that says you have no place pretending what is good or bad skill and that instead of forcing players into arbitrary playstyle boxes, leaving the nature of play and skill up to the individual is better cause it does not enforce a particular player as the correct one.

That is probably why bHVR settled on their system, its the simplest and most nonjudgemental.

You are dodging questions at a rate that makes you have prospects for a career in politics. But an effective evangelist for a new mmr system that does not make, its easy when you are not required to answer any concerns. Your replies are unclear if anything.

I asked you to address:

• What makes your system of what good skill is more valid than others?
• What about players that express skills in different ways than you? what choice do they have?

Im trying my best to make that clear to you now, and "Face-camping is bad" is not a response to any of those

Also trash talking Walmart employees in responses on a videogame forum??? even as a quip that is just weird.

You keep doing it mate.

Your question was, "What makes your system of what good skill is more valid than others?"

You ending the game as a certain score has no bearing on why that would make it better. If you want to say more hooks = better than you need to argue that point. So far all I have been told from what you said, is that you just assume you are correct without argument or proof, which is just not rational.

Your second answer is just calling people who don't play like you a jerk. This is the most barebones argument in a while.

I don't make the distinction that any playstyle is more valid than others. I know what the rules of the game are and I know the outcomes and I know the types of play that can happen, but I don't make a judgement on which ones makes you a jerk or not.

What is best for the Game's Health is determined by the Rules of the Game, not the MMR system or arbitary whims of judgemental people who say who is good and who is bad.

Aha, there is no objective reason given why your playstyle should be causing more ranking other than you say so, and that isn't a good reason to do it. This is probably why bHVR went simple and said, Killers must Kill & Survivors must Survive, and all that does matter is that it happens according to the game's rules-

Does this answer your questions?

You misunderstand me. Grades should not reward bloodpoints at all imo. The ranks used to have a connection to matchmaking. When they added the new MMR system they just kept the grades as a reward for playtime. 12 hook games should not reward for grades. It should reward MMR instead. Giving 1 million points just because you played around 70 games a month is like a participation trophy that is unnecessary. They should ditch the bp for grades and have them be connected to MMR instead.

To your response of "there is no objective reason given why your playstyle should be causing more ranking other than you say so, and that isn't a good reason to do it." The reason you earned more ranking isn't because "I said so" but because that player did more in general than a player who stood still by a hooked survivor all match. Pro-active playstyles reward more than inactive ones. If you think a player who stood in front of a hooked survivor with An instadown killer and forced people to death and closed a total of 4 chases for 4 kills should rank up more than a Killer who managed to close 12 chases and get 4 kills is a problem. The killer who closed 4 chases closed 66% less chases than the other player who closed 12 in the same amount of time. They receive the same amount of MMR even though one player was able to close only 1/3rd of the chases of the other player in the same amount of time. That is by definition a more skillful player and not  arbitary whims of judgemental people who say who is good and who is bad as you put it.

How is it biased thinking that a player doing more should be rewarded more? It's also not biased since we're talking in hypotheticals. The player who receives equal reward as a player doing more than them is absurd since one player in this scenario is doing more.

Interesting proposals, but dont you worry about queue times here? Maybe you mentioned something about it and I missed it.

As someone that plays a lot of both sides.....I already like interacting with the killer more, but this would make me REALLY want more interaction. Even on days where I'm just kinda chilling and doing gens, I'd actively seek them out for chase and go for more altruistic plays to protect my teammates.

As for your reward of harder players. Whether Seal has said it or not, I would assume based on previous conversations we've had that rewards would be adjusted. Perhaps you have a monthly LEVEL you have to reach to get the monthly reward of 1mil BP and that's tracked kind of like your Devotion level. Every match you get a certain amount of hooks, you'd continue to increase this level until you hit the cap for 1 mil. Kind of like how we used to have rank 20-1, it'd be like that, but the numbers would just be an indicator of what RANKS are right now. Currently based on how well you do in the match you either safety pip, +1, +2 and this system could still easily do that with a much more relaxed "score card" in the background to assure that even if you're not the ABSOLUTE BEST TOP TIER gamer, you hit rank 1 the way you're supposed to for your reward.