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"Made For This" Is Literally Just "Dead Hard" 2.0
Before continuing further, this is not discussion the perk's function or strength. This post is entirely about community discussion/debate.
Since to me, it literally seems like Dead Hard 2.0, by the idea that people are constantly posting on the forums to nerf it, while others are posting on the forums to not nerf it. You see a constant back and forth between two groups with varyingly different opinions.
It, in my opinion, might just be the hugest bit of community discourse. Compare it to the likes of Dead Hard for distance, or "press E to negate a hit" as some would say, and it feels like a broken record all over again.
That being said, I dont think the community is to blame, BHVR needs to be really careful when examining what to add to their game or not, since they should know by now that people are going to overreact over literally everything.
Be careful going into the comments, since it seems like this discourse has worked it's way into the thread and people are arguing/debating over something that I frankly dont care about.
Comments
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Honestly, it's really just Hyperfocus 2.0 more than DH 2.0
Can it be super busted in the right scenario? Yes, absolutely. Is it going to be consistently impactful for the average player? I don't think so.
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Might as well remove the perk or not make it stack with Hope, killer mains flocking to the forum to complain about it is tiring. It's situational at best and killers can still catch up a lot of the time. Been noticing a lot of pseudo-intellectual "math" going around about it as well. I don't use the perk so honestly couldn't care less what happens with it.
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I hope BHVR takes the constructive criticism into account, because until something changes I'm not playing Sadako.
Learning Nurse and already have countered full MFT squads.
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It is the same as the other recent survivor chapters. People read a perk with a decent effect in the ptb, theorize that all survivors will have godly masterful skill using it that will break the game, flood the forum with nerf posts and the perks get either panic nerfed or they realize that is not nearly as strong as they thought and nobody uses it.
Remember all the Scavenger will break the game post?
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It's the same old tired trend, people flocking to the forums to tell people the "math" and "stories" of matches they supposedly had, which is remarkable because they make it seem like they face comp teams every match. Makes you wonder.
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Seeing a Sadako on bloodlust 3 not be able to catch up to a Claudette running MFT + Resilience on a Macmillan pallet tile has convinced me that it’s not a “niche” perk.
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its really a strong perk ngl, i managed to 1v1 a killer with hope + made for this in endgame and saved my entire team, its definitely strong that's for sure. It allows you to greed pallets way more and I kind of wanna do a meme build with a friend to push the build even further with the speed increasing perks ik that isn't likely to work well, but I just find it funny how fast you can get with just hope and made for this.
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In that scenario, I would argue Hope is carrying MFT and not the other way around. Hope is 5-7% speed increase. MFT is 3%. Remove the stacking of the two if necessary and it's fine.
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Look, this is what i really dislike when people want to prove X perk is strong.
You take a weak m1 killer(sadako), then take a specific tile on a specific map, then take a certain survivor with a specific build that is focusing on looping and after this perfect scenario where everything is set for the perk to work fine you conclude is not a niche perk.
Imagine if i would say that mft is a weak perk because i went against a nurse in glenvale and she tunneled me at 5 gens.
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You seems to have different definition of "situational" from most of humanity.
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I would not consider mft strong just because of an endgame combo with hope as you are more likely to die before you reach that state.
Said that, i dont think it would bother anyone if they made hope and mft not stack with each other.
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I could quote another example. Prior to the new patch, I could get decent value from Wraith Dissolution since getting the first hit was easy, but against MFT users, that 3% boost gives them more distance to not have to vault a pallet while the perk is up, forcing me to have to break the pallet.
I ran Plague against two survivors running MFT and they didn’t even need to cleanse until end game because being injured benefited them so much more in chase.
One could argue that MFT only affects weaker Killers and balancing those Killers would be better in the long run. However given BHVR’s track record, I don’t see the balance happening anytime soon.
Given how much the odds are already stacked against weaker Killers, wouldn’t adding a perk that hurts their chases even more either push players to stop playing Killer or only play Blight, Nurse etc in the long run?
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Wouldn't you want perks that make it harder on the stronger killers and not punish the weaker ones then? Where's the logic in phasing out the weak killers some people love to run and make the more problematic killers/tactics more favorable?
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I would rather choose to buff those weak m1 killers than try to kill a perk that is being overhyped and is not nearly as strong as people think it is.
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What i dislike is the blatent lies
130% killer can't catch a 103% moving survivor? If that's the case why isn't everybody complaining about that apperent infinite? As a 125% killer wouldn't be able to catch up to a 100% survivor any less if that tile existed.
That person is really going around saying there is a tile you can't beat with bloodlust 3 vs mft when that implies that you can't beat it with bloodlust 2 normally.
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The problem with that is if you buff the weak M1 killers to match the perk, then you screw over the survivors without the perk. The opposite problem when the simple solution is to limit the problematic perk.
My dude doesn't know walls, vaults and pallets exist. Those buy you plenty of time to get to another loop against the killers this perk hurts. There's no lies about that, as a Sadako main that the post pointed out.
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Removing mft would not help those weaker killers. Every survivor would just go back to using exhaustion perks that are arguably and stronger than mft.
Dont get me wrong, i am not saying the effect of mft is not strong, but if you want this perk to be picked over sprint or lithe it does need to be good.
And i would choose to go against 4 mft than 4 sprints or lithes.
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Mft is not stronger than your traditional exhaustion perk. Meaning that those weak killer were already struggling with exhaustion perks before mft was introduced.
I would say mft helped those killer by making survivors give up on sprint/lithe to test it.
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SB and Lithe have limits. As I said, I main Sadako and go against those all the time. They won't always have 150% Haste, it has a cooldown and at least SB has a skill with 1%ing the exhaustion cooldown. Anyone who has a problem with those two is the only time I can confidently say skill issue.
MFT is as long as you're damaged or not exhausted, and since killers have hard requirements to exhaust survivors, they can just stay injured if the killer doesn't have at least 1 of those as a perk or addon and is able to apply it reliably, and it'd be disingenuous to say a lot of exhaust effects are consistent for killer to apply aside Fearmonger, and even then that's 5 second and can easily be waited out at a few loops.
In fact MFT makes Lithe easier to use since that's faster times to reach a vault after greeding pallets.
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Last time i checked walls, vaults and pallets exist without MfT too.
If a 130% killer can't catch up to a 103% moving survivor then by all logic a 125% killer wouldn't be able to catch up to a 100% survivor any better. Which means there is a supposed tile that even with blood lust 2 you can't beat a perkless survivor.
MfT is strong enough that you can just point to facts to make a argument against it. No need to spout nonsense like that
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I don't need to point to the many discussions explaining the math behind how much time walls, vaults and pallets save survivors with and without MFT, I guarantee you can find that information. And bloodlust is a bandaid to bad map design and, at least in my experience, doesn't come into play very often.
In fact, MFT can break chase enough to make sure bloodlust doesn't activate or isn't active very long if you break LoS and get enough distance by, you guessed it, using pallets and vaults.
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And there are many more situations where sprint and lithe are better also.
I dont play sadako so i cant fairly measure how much of an impact mft may have over sb and lithe.
Said that, even if you were to be right that is only one example. Instadown counters mft, speed chase power counters mft, anti loop killers counter mft. I dont seriously believe that Mft is consistently better than those two. You are still better using sprint or lithe
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So instead of making builds I find fun to run and interactive for all survivors, I have to drop those completely:
Use Exhaust, Anti Gen, Chase, and Instant Down (all that are inconsistent and due to limitations of the perks/addons) to counter one single strong perk and play perfect at every loop just to break even with the 4 perk slots and 2 addon slots I have.
So why shouldn't I just play Nurse instead?
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I mean, first of all those are not few options to have if you want to counter it.
Second, you can still play like normal if you want, mft does not automatically make every survivor into an unbeatable god looper, you are still faster, you still have bloodlust, you still have your own killer power and your own killer addons.
You are acting like mft gives survivors an automatic win if you dont hard counter it.
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Firstly, those are the options. You're dealing with a perk that can extend chases well beyond the norm and most killer perks require you to run other perks to make them work better.
Second, no. My favorite build on Sadako is Iri Tape/VCR with Deadmans, Jolt, Gearhead and a mixed bag for the last. My other go to is a full scream build. MFT guarantees I can't get value from Deadmans or Jolt if I get chained between god pallets and T L walls. Not to mention if they have the visual terror radius on as well. And do I even need to explain why a scream build is pointless?
Thirdly, the only time I've seen MFT fail is if the survivor doesn't know where loops are. That was once.
So why not just cut the middleman and play Nurse and ignore loops at this point? Most other M1 killers are also outclassed by it and casual fun builds are asking to be destroyed.
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I would rather fix a problematic perk than changing everything else around that one perk.
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- Yes, those are the options, which are not few i meant. The amount of chase extended by Mft is determined by the survivors's skill and the killer's skill, which is the same that any other exhaustion perk.
- I told you before that i am not a sadako player so i cant argue how much mft affects her. I am sorry if mft supposedly counters the playstyle of your preferred killer. Said that, I would like for sadako to receive some buffs.
- i have tried mft multiple times and is not really that gamebreaking, and not worth it trading my lithe for it. What can i say, it's your anecdote vs my anecdote.
Use nurse, use blight, use bubba, use any killer with anti loop mechanic, you can use any of this if you want. I wouldnt change my playstyle for this perk but if you want go ahead.
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It's been nice having MFT around because once it gets nerfed it's going to go back to complaining about WoO and BNP.
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We've been complaining about WoO much? that's a news to me, map complaint is real 24/7 but WoO?
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If this perk is meant to compete with the strongest survivor perks available it needs to have a decent effect.
If mft could be used with sprint and lithe i would be demanding nerfs alongside you
But asking to nerf a perk with an exhaustion restriction that is already weaker than the other two means you really want this perk to be in a state where no one will use it.
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Yeah of course, all exhaustion perks are more or less situational and has killer interaction/counterplay, this perk is not like those.
Literally just "you'll get haste", boring, broken, flawed and stupid, I'd rather have NOTHING than this mess.
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Appreciate the aggression but I am not going to hand hold and explain definitions to you. Not looking for Forum PvP.
I don't really understand the WoO complaints we've been getting but BNP definitely needs to be looked at.
Just wanted to quote this because it seems a lot of people like to glance over this fact.
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And mft also has its counters. Instadown, exhaustion perk/addon, anti loop powers, speed chase killer power, ranged attacks to some extent.
AGAIN, MFT DOES NOT MAKE EVERY SURVIVOR UNBEATABLE IN CHASE
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the fact MfT is strong enough to the point just a facts can make a valid reasoning to nerf it? I agree.
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Yes, problem is many people not using facts. Just making up stories to try to prove their point. If the perk needs a nerf, show the actual facts. So far the only thing I can agree with is a MtF+Hope combo which can be rectified by disabling MtF at EGC. MtF+Resil is not a problem unless you're getting outplayed by a great looper, even then I've seen killers mind game it.
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So the conclusion to all of this is that survivors should no longer have content. From now only, only killers and killer perks, because survivor perks are OP.
It doesn't matter if it's 1%: Extra generator progress is bad for the game, extra movement speed is bad for the game, extra healing speed is bad for the game...
Extra health states are bad for the game, stealth perks are bad for the game, aura reading is bad for the game... so what exactly do people want survivors to have?
Everything on the survivor side has to have obnoxious requirements with low increases (If all other survivors are hooked, slugged or dead and the killer is within line of sight, decrease pain noises 1% after fast vaulting a window) and never be able to counter "strategies".
A perk to stop a survivor from dying when the killer is facecamping? "BUT WHAT ABOUT LEGITIMATE SITUATIONS FOR FACECAMPING?!?!?"
A perk to prevent killers slugging? "PICKING YOURSELF UP ONCE IS OP. KILLERS CAN'T SLUG LIKE THAT??? WHAT IF IT'S NEEDED???"
Wiggling being able to reduce time for carrying a survivor to a hook for 1 second was OP, but backpack builds are fun and niche.
Just admit you don't like survivors having a chance to survive, guys. It's okay, I understand, we all like winning. There's no point to build unsustainable rhetorics like "A bloodlust 3 killer can't catch a +3% speed survivor". It's not an objective opinion about game balance, you just don't like losing.
The most fun part about this is that MFT will inevitably get nerfed and we'll go back to the bi-monthly "Survivors are OP but 90% of survivors are just really bad at the game".
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Eh, that seems more like you just don't want to accept the fact, because first absolute fact about this perk is it WILL increase chase time no matter what due to it's non-situational haste effect, but you keep denying this fact.
I legit don't get how you got that "conclusion" which is ridiculously biased, kinda like killers saying "no tunneling no camp no gen defense what do we do then".
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Uhh do you have any ideas what 3% extra speed mean?
It means that killer need to spend 25% more time to catch up the distance.
In other words, with MFT, it's like every windows and pallet are 25% closer with each other.
Oh even better, because you would have longer reaction time and longer looping time than just make pallet and windows closer.
So basically this one single perk, just break the m1 chasing mechanic.
I don't know if this is not overpower what is.
I really don't understand why people can keep defending it,it basically just a perk that"You can't m1 me because i have MTF"
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Instadowns only works first time, exhaustion perks/addons generally is pretty bad and fearmonger isn't even good against MfT, anti loop or speed chase or ranged attacks will not going to "counter" anything because all that things are already balanced against 100% movement speed and survivors will get the value of 3% no matter what, in fact 3% movement speed actually "counter" those killer powers because that haste can very well diminish effect of powers by sizable amount, even against nurse.
If we aren't allowed to think a survivor perk is unbalanced unless that perk makes every survivors unbeatable, I'm pretty sure literally no nerfs were warranted in DbD's history.
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Those counters work, some to more extent than others but they do. There is not a complete nullification strategy against mft and it shouldnt because even if you could not counter mft in the least, you are still faster, have bloodlust and killer powers. But you dont want this, you want the complete removal just because you have overly high expectations of what survivors can do with this perk.
Those survivors you believe are using mft to extend chases to absurd amount of time are the ones that probably would have done the same or more using traditional exhaution perks because using mft efficiently requires good looping knowledge.
I dont see survivors trading their long use sprints and lithes over this new perk. I dont see 4 survivor going full mft now, and probably never will because even if it has decent effect it is not worth it.
Yet you claim this perk is problematic. And if it gets nerfed then we ll start to get more post of "Exhaustion perks are broken, why everyone is using sprint and lithe"
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Amazing. Thank you for your insight. Now, what survivor perks would you make?
Movement speed perks are out of the table because a 3% increases catching up a wooping 25% more.
I'm guessing gen speed is out as well because it reduces total chase time by shortening match length.
Healing speed perks are a no-go considering everyone was having a meltdown over the Circle Of Healing "buff" that reduced CoH's usage about 80%, mostly because it denies hit-and-run strategies and the faster survivor heals the faster they can undo killer progress.
Not sure about your thoughts around self pick-up, but I'm certain a perk that allows you to infinitely pick yourself up after a while being slugged would make the forums crash with all the traffic of people complaining about it. Although to tell me your opinion on it, I'd love to know.
A perk that freezes the hook timer and starts giving survivors points when the killer is nearby is probably a bad idea as well, because there's a small chance - like, a minuscule chance - that this can be somehow get exploited by survivors. I can already imagine the forum going like "This punishes people that don't facecamp while doing nothing to disuade facecampers".
Let's see... if you'll allow me to risk a guess, your survivor perks would be some variant of Diversion and Urban Evasion. Although I'd expect you to put many tells on your version of Diversion. After all, successfully distracting the killer could potentially decrease killer efficency by as much as 17% (!!!), which in turn would make a 4-man Diversion team make the game unplayable for the killer role.
I'm curious on your opinion on things like insta-down Huntress or any of the other insta-down killers, add-ons and perks, or even high-mobility killers. I'm sure for these cases you'd forfeit raw chase and match duration numbers and your reply would be much more nuanced, with best and worst use cases and some form of "It rewards skillful play" comment.
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Everything of your post is literally made of assumption like "people would not use it over other perks" or "I think someone who runned you were better anyway", even "everyone would still complain even if it's bad", on the other hand exhaustion perks/addons for killers being extremely limited or unreliable to the point you are lot more likely to not get any value from it, is just a fact.
Catching survivor itself has never been a problem, the point is how long you can prolong it, this perk increase that no matter what, by actually big amount all the time.
even sprintburst or lithe can not do this, those perks require brain cell and effort to pull off, they are not like "you'll just be faster".
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If bloodlust wasen't active then i'm still right about the 130% sadekko not being able to catch the 103% survivor being a outright lie.
You can say what you want about MfT and i'll agree that it's very strong. But you can't seriously pretend that a bloodlust 3 killer isn't able to catch a survivor purely cause of MfT
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Do you think the game is just a flat plane with no walls, loops, pallets, etc?
I'm honestly suspecting you're just trolling at this point. I refuse to believe that someone with 7800 posts doesn't know that there are ways to extend a chase with the current map layouts and tiles and how haste extends that on top of it.
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Again those walls, loops and pallets are there regardles of mft
Again if a 130% killer can't catch a 103% survivor with MfT then why was it not a problem before MfT that a 125% killer couldn't catch a 100% survivor?
Untill you actually answer that question you are admitting that it was a gross overexaguration and by dancing around that question you are the one trolling
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You keep saying the same argument when I've told you that all of those EXTEND the chase time and can even break chase, and MFT extends it even more and ensures each loop/pallet link is secured. There's no point arguing anymore if you're going to never understand it.
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Yeah, I just watched Skermz and Swarm using MFT+Hope against Sadako. She hit one while they were looping shack, and then when they made a beeline for the exit gate she caught up to them and hit the other. I think the MFT+Hope combo is too strong and the two perks shouldn't synergise, but the Sadako wasn't even at BL3 and she managed to hit both. I don't even think she was at BL2. MFT on its own? Hard to imagine she'd struggle. Not buying it either.
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Mind sharing the video? Because all I'm seeing here is endgame, beeline for gate, and no talk of looping.
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Posting the Sadako BL 3 vs Resilience + MFT video with timestamp. I’m sure some people will still find some reason for it being a niche scenario and totally unrepresentative of the majority of the games. Please note that I am not the creator of this video and please do not harass him.
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If you back up 10 seconds to right before your timestamp, he literally breaks an unsafe pallet that could've caught the survivor.
He then goes to one of the safest pallet loops on that map and tries to force it through. This isn't a showcase of made for this, it's how making a bad decision at a loop can cost you time. Red should've either stayed at the first pallet without breaking it, or broken the safe pallet right away.
Even with that error... He finished the game with a 4k. So the lesson to be learned here is that even with a strong survivor perk, a weak chase killer, and the killer making mistakes, if you're skilled enough at the game you can still recover and win without the doors being powered.
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