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Why is BHVR so afraid to buff weak killers?
please explain this to me. Why are they so scared to buff them? u cant create an excuse with "think about the low mmr players!" when they are playing against killers in low mmr. everyone plays in their rank and it shouldn't stop you on buffing weak killers and set them on par with blight, nurse or wesker.
Comments
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What do you define as a 'weak killer'?
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trapper? sadako? trickster? doctor? do u even play the game??
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Things that are harder to play need to justify the difficulty increase with higher power level. Lowest tier killers are also the easiest killers to play.
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Sadako was revealed to have a sliiiiightly above average kill rate last time, though. At least in top MMR. She apparently wrecked shop in overall MMR.
Sometimes perception doesn't quite line up with reality. That can make it difficulty to identify which killers need buffs, and what buffs they need.
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They don't have the time to spend buffing/reworking every killer while also balancing perks and creating new chapters. Hence, they take it one at a time slowly. They also don't want to over do any of them which makes sense.
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I think its more a case of them being swayed by statistics. They have even outright said Trapper has a good pick rate and kill rate even at high MMR and so they have no intention of changing him.
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If bhvr were looking to attract new players then this is the opposite of what they should be doing, simple killer should be strong enough that they can carry them into the higher MMR where they will eventually get kicked back down again strictly because of their lack of skill.
Instead all of the current simple killer crop just leads new players to getting bored frustrated and quitting because they can't win a single match because of how hilariously outdated some of them are compared to the modern survivor meta
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I've noticed people consider some killers low tier because they just don't know how to play them.
Doctor is a great killer and you really can make games insanely not fun for survivors, Sadako just got a nice buff on PTB, Trickster you really need to know how to aim and if you do you're going to wreck people, and Trapper is trapper because once the web is down moving survivors to it is pretty easy not to mention hilarious.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Sadako is just the best example of my point: Community perception isn't really a good guideline. Sadako is statistically speaking quite powerful, despite being panned as a terrible killer to play, so calling her a 'weak killer' just skews the conversation a bit.
Likewise, there's also a problem with differences across MMR. If you take all MMR into account, Doctor last had a kill rate of 55%. Below Trapper, but more likely to win than lose. But if you only look at the higher MMR ranks, his kill rate increases to the 58-59% bracket. That's a pretty considerable leap towards being dead-average. Trapper, meanwhile, is sitting on 56% across the board.
There's just a lot more nuance to the entire thing than just saying 'this killer is perceived as weak, and therefor it should get buffed'.
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So, I think as much as they say that they take both a quantitative and qualitative approach to balance, I think they often defer to straight up kill rates at the end of the day over qualitative feedback. But doing that can lead to some blind spots in their analysis. I don't think they're lying when they say that Trapper, Sadako, et al, do well at higher MMRs. They probably do if you utilize Condemned Sadako, Basement Trapper, Midwich/The Game Doc, etc. But those playstyles absolutely suck the fun out of the game and shouldn't be the basis for leaving a killer as is. The data isn't going to necessarily tell the whole story on a killer.
Of course, they are changing Sadako. So it's not like they *only* look at kill rates. Just that they still favor a very data driven approach.
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Isn't killer the power role at lower levels? How is buffing low tier killers solve that issue? Is there an issue where newer killers quicky surpass the newer survivors and end up always losing games because they can only face more experienced survivors?
Wouldn't you want players to move up the ladder in killers to play things that have more depth to reduce players from getting bored? Wouldn't buffing low tier killers entice players to stick with the simple killers which would result in players getting bored by the simplicity of those kits?
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But I like the wraith!
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The efficiency of various survivor groups cover an insanely large range. Coordinated experts can do gens in 4 minutes, while random solos may even take more than 20. Because of this, I find it reasonable that not all killers have the same innate level of power.
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There are no weak killers. Killrate of any killer is solid. The game is still massively kiler-sided and is balanced a lot around m1 activity. Bloodlust, a lot of dead zones, lack of good or fair pallets make game still feels good, absolutely viable and a lot of times even easy as m1 killer. Basically all this mobility, anti-loop etc are just extra and over-on-top mechanics to make killer easy and overpoweringly fun. A lot of killer crutches - camping, tunneling, 3genning aren't fixed yet. You can succeed with any killer. "Weak killer" became just a meaningless buzzword. Important to note that you have option to not play "weak" killers
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Well you can do really well with Wraith even at the soft cap. Hexy streams Wraith and wins every game on that killer.
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By your own logic nurse should be buffed.
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This is an interesting post actually. Has there ever been any official communication from BHVR on players progressing to “better killers” or is the official stance that all killers are viable at all levels?
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Aside from Trapper, all Killers are decent. Sadako even gets buffed a bit with the next Midchapter (granted, nerfing her strongest playstyle, but overall increasing her powerlevel). Trickster and Doctor are not weak at all, but they require some practice.
And well, how would YOU buff those Killers? With keeping their design in mind? I always see "Buff Killers!", but nobody even bothers to think how to buff them (because it is not easy to do...).
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The weak killers are actually more effective at lower MRR than the stronger killers because they have lower skill requirements and nobody who plays games other than DbD knows how to loop, so even a trapless trapper will get easy downs at such ranks. The game is balanced around people who barely play the game, and those people are more likely to be struggling against Trapper than against baby Blights.
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Well they talked about Trapper recently and how they are not looking to buff him because he's for new killer players even though he needs buffs for the top 5%.
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Yeah that's just absolutely insane lol. We all know trapper has been pretty much the weakest killer in the game for some time.
Or is it Freddy? They did Freddy so dirty!
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Because survivors will cry it's killer sided and there's more survivors than there are killers and not enough that play both sides
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since when did trickster become weak. as long as main event exists he cannot be classified bad just bc of the camping potential.
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Sadako’s changes do not increase her overall power level. It’s nerf even outside of Condemn Strat.
As for buffing killers, a lot of them it is actually pretty easy to do.
For example, all Doctor needs is Polished Electrode base kit and to slightly reduce the movement speed penalty when he is charging his shock. That’s it. He would be a decent killer with those changes.
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They don't buff them so they don't start absolutely wrecking newbie survivors more than they already do. Fun fact, most killers are only weak against people who know how to counter their power. Let me illustrate via some examples.
I used to main Legion prior to their buff. Nobody would claim that pre buff Legion was strong, but the amount of people who would actively make mistakes against me because they didn't understand Legion was astounding. I had so many people give me a free pallet and save me time because I'd stab then hug them in Frenzy and they'd drop the pallet on me before I'd ended Frenzy which actually helps Legion. I had Survivors use old I Frame Dead Hard while I was still in Frenzy. I've had survivors try to hide from me mid Frenzy. The most baffling was the handful of games where for my first chase, the whole crew let me Frenzy through the lot of them and the last Survivor thought a locker would block Frenzy's killer instinct. Left the Survivors with 3 injured and needing to mend with 1 on hook. Those games were over almost before they started. All those mistakes added up to make Legion perform way better against those Survivors than they had any right to.
For a more intense example... once a bit ago, when Epic had DBD for free, I got myself a smurf account. I was intending to play on it, record all the results of the match to test out their MMR system to see how quickly it would notice I wasn't new and start giving me people who were better and had full loadouts. I played exactly one Trapper match on that account then couldn't bring myself to play on it anymore. This is about how the match went.
It started off pretty average. Not particularly good or bad for either side. At one point I ended up near shack so I was like "Hey, I'm going to quick trap the god pallet. Might help me later." Well... later, I came upon a gen with a few people on it. Spooked all of them and started chasing one. One of the ones I hadn't started chasing fled towards shack... right into the trap. So I went and grabbed him. Basement was in Shack, so I put him down there, reset the one trap, then started to leave. I happened to spot a Survivor trying to get a sneaky save, and hit them. Instead of running away from shack and the hook, they ran towards it... right into the trap. Second Survivor in the basement. Retrap again, leave. During this, somebody missed a skill check so I start heading that way. I end up accidentally running into another survivor coming for the rescue. Give em a smack and they do the exact same thing as the last one. They run towards shack, through the god pallet into the trap and the 3rd Survivor is in the basement. Due to timing and placement, I didn't figure that 3rd survivor had caused the skillcheck fail, so I head that way again. I poke around for a bit, then find an AFK crow on a locker. Pull the 4th survivor out for a complete one sided shut out as the weakest killer in the game. All because they didn't know how to deal with a trap at shack.
They don't want to buff the simpler killers to the point where they can handle really strong survivors because then they'll hard steam roll newbies.
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Okay so we'll make a list then for common agreement
Trapper Myers pig, Freddy, nemisis(addons) doc anyone else?
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I don't really see any desperate need to buff Killers.
From all we've seen from stats, most Killers are doing well.
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we do not need more killers to be on par with nurse and blight, ESPECIALLY not trapper, sadako, trickster, or doctor. at least nurse and blight are fun to vs in the slightest
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Probabaly because they are fine statistically (regardless of if they actually are or not).
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Trapper just need some QoL improved and the maps need more grass, and thats it.
Trickster is on the spot that if you buff him, there is litterally no counter. Low obstacles loops are example. In return high wall loops are a pain. I dont know how to buff him that make him fair.
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trickster is in a good spot , buffing him will make him annoying and broken. (he cant get buffs or nerfs with how his power works)
doctor is already good , pre-drops can hurt him sometimes but nothing extreme really. (Solid Killer , high skill cap , high reward)
but yeah trapper and sadako really need some buffs .
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I was under the impression the weaker Killers do decently because their pick rate is much lower, therefore a 4k for them would result in a higher Kill rate than a 4k on Nurse.
Unless devs did equal sampling for all the Killers when it comes to Kill rates but I don’t think that’s the case.
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the funny part is where you get twitter complaining that they face Wesker too much so he needs changes. I mean the way you get players to play other character is.... to buff weaker characters to get more variety. But BVHR looks a kill-stats, killer over performing.
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I agree with this to an extent. Most "weak" killers would just be the worst to go against if they were buffed to even A tier.
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A Myers main I have no idea. It's universally known that he completely sucks ass without tombstone add ons and they refuse to buff him. It's a joke. Nerf his tombstone add ons and BUFF HID BASE KIT!!!
Instead ######### like MFT gets added to the game making him and the other bad killers even worse to play. The devs have no idea what they are doing.
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I see your point, but other than QoL improvements (fov slider pls), you risk making the game very Killer-favored by buffing characters.
The idea is that once you get to high MMR, you SHOULD be good with that Killer. You should have put a lot of time into them.
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Ah yes killrates the most accurate of measuring tools.
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######### are you on about
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I see people complaining they see Wesker too much, but rarely, if ever, that the solution is to nerf him. In fact, I often see requests for a killer prevention program in the same vein as the map prevention program. That is, if someone keeps getting the same killer repeatedly that the game prioritises a different killer for the sake of variety. I see that request on social media far more than I do requests to nerf killers.
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issue is queue times, you would be giving huge queues times to killers that enjoy x character. Some player have recommended removing d/c penalty now that bots are in play. in theory, you could just d/c matches now and leave your teammates with bots if people hate specific killer, they can force killer player to only play against bots. In that sense, survivors could indirectly force killer players to play killers they do not enjoy playing because if they pick a character they do enjoy playing. you get 4 d/c.
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The fact the devs think kill rates is a good way to measure the spot a killer in is laughable. You can still camp people to death in this game and that count as a "kill" lmao
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Buffing can lead to powercreep, which is bad. Trapper will always be perceived as weak due to the requirement of having to setup rather than already having a web to drive Survivors toward.
Plague's power is linked to survivors choosing to cleanse. If they don't, then the only way she can get her power is to run the iri add-on that gives her Corrupt Purge after a generator is repaired, but shortens the duration. Her other add-ons basically revolve around infection, which puts her in a similar boat to where Ghostface was before his add-on pass.
I wouldn't consider Doctor to be a weak killer. Trickster, like other killers, suffers from map design and the rng of tile spawns. I don't really see how he can be perceived as "weak" if you're good with your knives.
Pig is weak due to outdated design, and Sadako suffers from the same problem that Plague suffers from in that her power is in the hands of the survivors.
I've heard some people say Clown is weak, and tbh, I just don't see it. Bottles impair vision and inflict Hindered, with an alternative bottle for a speed boost.
Weak killers aren't necessarily weak because of their power. Sometimes they're weak because they have weak add-ons, their power can be held hostage by survivors, or just map design and rng. That last one is something every killer suffers with to some degree.
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If anything was going to kill the game it would be this.
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Try telling the person who got camped that they didn't actually count as a Kill.
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I think BHVR puts a bit too much stock in pure data and analytics to the point where if something has an okay win-rate then they don't care what anyone says, that killer/perk is fine. Doesn't matter if they feel miserable to play as or play against.
Saying that though, the last load of kill-rates we saw had Trapper bottom of the table and they STILL said Trapper is in a good place and doesn't need anything. And Trapper being awful is one of the few things the majority of the community can agree upon.
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Because buffing killers would mean they would have to do something (remove) camping.
By doing this it would make so many upset and cry to the DEVs and they don't want hear it.
So camping stays no buffs.
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BHVR isn't afraid to buff those killers they've literally came out and said before that killers like trapper, wraith etc.. are meant for beginner players and the point is to move up from them to a different killer kind of like a stepping stone that helps you understand basic game knowledge without overwhelming you with a hard to use ability, it's designed and intended for certain killers to not be as strong just as a tool to learn, while I personally wouldn't mind seeing weaker killers buffed BHVR is doing it to try to force you into playing a variety instead of the same killer it makes sense from a business standpoint.
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So strange. Almost as if pure data analysis wouldn't be the only factor they make decisions over. Or if their goal wasn't even ensuring that every killer performs equally against survivor groups of various efficiency.
It's a very deep mystery indeed!
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They said that the numbers were in line with what they wanted to see, but keep in mind that stats in dbd can be exceptionally misleading. It isn't hard for a killer to get decent numbers while still have functional flaws that should be addressed. The main reason they gave for Trapper not getting very much outside of the small change and Naughty Bear skin and mori is because Trapper is the flagship beginner killer.
Sadako had a high kill rate that people like to throw around as proof that she's actually not a bad killer, but killers with the ability to kill without going through hook states should have a higher than average kill rate. Sadako while being a stealth killer lacks a lot of chase or hit and run potential base kit that you would find on other stealth killers. Playing for condemned kills is currently the most effective and popular way to play her. So stat wise it is easy to say that her numbers are in line with what the devs want to see but clearly the data is really skewed. When we get stats there is usually a lot of context behind them we simply don't have and that seem out of step with what players across all skill levels who are vocal enough to talk about their experiences say.
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As wonk as they can be, I'd say they're slightly better than 'random people on a forum'.
I already don't agree with Doctor. And I think Nemesis would be better served with bugfixing than buffs.
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