BHVR just admitted and proved that tunnelling is an extremely effective strategy
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So what, 8 seconds of unblockable aura-reading on the entire team or just one Survivor?
And then a 20% Haste until X condition is reached?
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Whatever it takes to give the killer the feeling that they have an extremely likely chance of getting into a chase with a different survivor, if the killer leaves the hooked survivor.
Remember that BHVR is expecting killers to leave a hooked survivor, which is a survivor that the killer 100% knows the location of, and there is an extremely likely chance that some other survivor will eventually show up to that exact spot. If BHVR expects the killer to leave that situation, then there needs to be an extremely likely chance the killer can actually get into a chase with a different survivor, as an incentive to leave the hooked survivor.
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Well, at least one of us is trying to come up with ideas.
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To be honest, if I hooked someone in the middle of my 3 gen, I don’t really see the point of leaving the general area because I’m defending the generators and keeping an eye on potential rescuers at the same time. If anything, leaving the hook would be misplaying and potentially throwing the game. I don’t see how going for another chase at another part of the map can be more rewarding that staying in such a scenario.
Devs may want Killers to leave the hook but sometimes it makes more sense to stay.
The only way I can see them fixing this is to change unhooking to survivors having to interact with mechanisms around the map to unhook a survivor automatically, this would encourage the Killers to go around the map to prevent an unhook. If unhooked, the Survivor would spawn in a random part of the map. Naturally hooking would have to be more rewarding for such a change
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"In order to properly incentivize something, the rewards need to be as good or better than what you are trying to dissuade people from doing. There is no reasonable reward that would ever be as strong as tunneling. Even if you were to give the Killer an entire extra gen as a reward, it would still be worse than tunneling. You cannot reasonable incentivize people to not tunnel."
I have to disagree that no incentive will ever be enough to stop killers from tunnelling. Pain Res and No Way Out are 2 of the best perks in the game currently (https://youtu.be/q3YNmVPmIeY). If you made these 2 perks base kit, the majority of killers would probably stop tunnelling.
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It can be both. I gave you the definition itself, what you said falls under that quite easily as far as I see. It was not my intention to offend, I was just addressing what you said. I'll just say insult instead if that'll make it easier. There's no need for you to include insults into your arguments. They got addressed and called out for what they are, insults to a group of players just for trying their best (key word) chance at winning.
If tunneling, camping, 3 gens, gen rush, or w.e. is an effective way to win then it is what it is. Again, its not the players fault, get mad at the devs if you want. Advocating for it to be changed or expressing that for you it is unfun is one thing and on that I would probably agree. Insulting players just for playing in a way that has been shown to get results just because you don't like it is another and I will say that that is always unnecessary and hostile.
If that's not how you feel or what you meant, then perhaps that was just poor word choice.
I myself have advocated for changing these things and proposed solutions in the past, but as the game is now it's not the players fault. Unless we're really going to argue that taking your best shot to win is something that shouldn't be allowed and/or something that should be mocked and shamed.
Make going for the 12 hook a good play. Better than the tunneling alternative and actually strong, not a detriment. Then we'll see more players shift and play that way.
Post edited by MrPenguin on0 -
Killers still tunnel today even while using pain res and no way out. Having those two basekit does not change anything other than giving them more tools to use while they tunnel.
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What % still tunnel while running both Pain Res and No Way Out though? You barely get any value from these perks if you tunnel. I argue that they would have won without these perks anyway if they won with them while tunnelling. With these perks, killers might situationally tunnel if they randomly find the survivor in a bad spot, but I doubt most would plan to hard tunnel from the start.
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The specific examples are irrelevant. The important part is the general idea that killers need basekit help getting into a chase with a different survivor, that are reliable enough for killers to feel like it’s worth the risk of leaving a hooked survivor.
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The problem with that solution is that even while having those two perks basekit, tunneling is still the easiest most effective way to win a game in dbd. Meaning that everytime a killer maybe losing the game they will switch back to tunnel as you are not actively punishing it in any way.
Your solution relies on killers willingly choosing not to tunnel while having no reason not to.
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Add me 70% speed boost and i wilk keep tunneling and camp.Tunnel and camp are effective due to gens fly
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You don't just need a small bonus effect to reward the killer for not tunneling, you need to make it large enough to offset and/or be better than tunneling. Removing one player from the game is huge, so you'd need something equally huge.
We can punish tunneling, but only if we also put something equally strong as a reward for not tunneling in its place at the same time, or buff killers/nerf survivors to compensate. But if we just made not tunneling superior then it shouldn't really be necessary as winning is the strongest incentive.
If you just punish tunneling and that's it then either A) killers will still tunnel just be worse at it or B) you'll be forcing 12 hook games or something similar while the game is not in a state to really facilitate that gameplay in any match with competent players actually trying to win and not goofing around (unless you're Nurse).
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I disagree. Pain Res and No Way Out are literally 2 of the best perks in the game curently (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3YNmVPmIeY). If they were made base kit, kill rates will literally skyrocket to above 85%. It would be like playing killer with 6 perk slots. This change isn't balanced and I only used it as an example to show that not tunnelling can be made strong.
If they were made base kit, I would stop tunnelling on most of the killers I play. Tunnelling is a risky strategy since you are betting on being able to tunnel a survivor out fast. Going the alternative route of getting value from Pain Res and No Way Out is much less risky and gives similar or better value. This is coming from someone who tryhards as much as possible to win and 3-4ks almost every match.
My solution relies on making not tunnelling an option that is equivalent or better to tunnelling, so tunnelling is no longer vastly the best option. You say my solution gives killers no reason not to tunnel but that's false. The reason not to tunnel would be to win, which is the strongest incentive.
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I agree 100%
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I hate how people always say this. Tunneling sucks and is really annoying, but it is not at all an effective strategy. If the killer is tunneling and face camping, just let the man die and do gens and you will escape with only 1 person dead most of the time. It's terrible for the survivor getting tunneled, but killers only do it half the time because their teammates are too altruistic. These bots are a great addition because it means that if you are getting tunneled, you can just leave without throwing the game for your teammates.
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If we put something on the same level as current tunneling, then it will create its own set of problem. The main problem with tunneling is how most survivors arent able to deal with a killer hard tunneling at 5 gens thus it makes for an easy strat to use every game with every killer.
Take a look at the other side, genrush let's say. Survivors are not getting something "equally strong as a reward for not genrushing", they are getting a flat nerf to PT and a rework nerfing BNP because they cant possibly incentivate survivors to not bring 4 BNPs and smash gens in 5 minutes. With tunneling is the same.
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I don't believe tunneling is OP. Survivors can win against a tunneling killer just fine if they're good. Maybe not Nurse and Blight, but that's a problem for those 2 not a general killer problem.
It's just really unfun, which is still a problem.
Gen rushing is the same in the sense that its the equivalent strategy on the other side, however the power levels are not the same.
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What i am trying to tell you is that unless you gave killer an extreme advantage, something so broken that would skyrocket the kill rates, tunneling will never decrease, let alone cease to exist.
As other users pointed out, killers had the eruption meta not so long ago, a perk so busted that would give you 40 sec of gen regression, uncounterable without comms, that only require a gen kick, and still they tunneled and camped because of how strong this strat is.
Your solution means making killer basekit strong enough to win against any survivor without tunneling while making every killer that tunnels steamroll every game.
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For me they are both the strongest strategies for either side.
For killer, i would argue the best way to get consistent 4K is to hard tunnel a surv at 5 gens while using deadlock and pain res. Tunnel and proxy camp the hook and you will probably be in a 3v1 with 3 gens remaining. Slug the 3rd one bypassing hatch and you are good.
For survivor, the best way would be to bring 4 commodius + BNP and smash different gens while using PT on the last gen to power the gates at 4-5 min.
One of these is getting nerfed in a few weeks.
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No I don't mean they're not the same as in they're not the strongest for either side, they are.
They're not the same as in gen rushing is more powerful than tunneling. We're at the point where a gen can be done in 40 seconds or less working on it solo.
Hopefully the nerfs bring it more in line.
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It is a matter of perspective. It is difficult to know which one is more powerful as they are fundamentally different.
40 sec gens can only be achieved in pure gen rushing builds, mostly the ones with hyperfocus/stake-out, and still, it requires perks, items, the killer not interrupting you, etc. It is not as easy to pull off as many people think.
And tunneling has been getting stronger since the basekit BT was added. DS was nerfed, DH was nerfed, medkits were nerfed, flashlights were nerfed, now BNP and PT will be nerfed next patch so killers will also have more time. I can honestly say that tunneling is in its strongest state.
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I don't believe tunneling is OP. Survivors can win against a tunneling killer just fine if they're good.I agree on the concept, tunneling does have clear counterplay, though it creates its own problem. At low and mid MMR there are not a lot of players who are capable of the counterplay, while any killer regardless of skill can engage in camping/tunneling. So killers who do that vault up the MMR until they get matched against teams who can counter it, then they get crushed and complain about the game being broken.
So at no point of the experience are people really having fun.
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I really don't agree.
I can't recall ever thinking that I couldn't find Survivors reliably since like 2018
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More likely than not, they would find a way to optimize and tunnel while still using those perks.
Heck, you can still tunnel someone out at 5 gens and then use PR for the rest of the game.
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BHVR currently has a game that's popular and makes them good money. Players may complain constantly about tunnelling, but most of them continue playing the game regardless. There's no mass exodus caused by tunneling and camping existing and so there's no real pressure for them to actually fix them.
Also, 'fixing' tunneling fully would require a massive change to how the game works, and a big change like that risks driving loads of players away if it's not done right. Rather than making big changes that -could- harm their business, they could alternatively do nothing, or just make minor changes that don't really fix much, because as I said, people aren't really leaving the game in droves because of camping.
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It really doesn’t matter if you agree.
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60% killrate doesnt mean 60% killer win rate. Atleast by the "3k or 4k" definition of a killer win.
60% killchance means 34.56% for a 3k and 12.96% for a 4k, for a total killer win chance of 47.52% . Meanwhile each survivor still would have a 40% Winchance.
Its not a 50:50 ( 1:1) but a 47.52 : 40 (1.188 : 1 ) is definitely "more fair" than the 50 : 31.25 ( 1.6 : 1) a 50% escape chance would lead to.
Of course these are theoretical numbers based on chances, but theyre as valid as the 40% escape rate on average" the devs stated.
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1 data point = data trend proof???????!?!!????!
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Yet you still play
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I don't think I've ever heard people cite not being able to find other Survivors as a reason for tunneling.
Tried to argue in good faith, but it just seems like you aren't.
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"It's just really unfun, which is still a problem."
I pretty much said I agree lol, not sure if your just adding on or didn't read the full thing.. Yeah it's generally known that in low skill settings killers dominate and once survivors get competent it starts flipping.
Any killer can engage in tunneling sure, but any survivor can also just M1 gens and make them fly. Both sides strongest and unfun strat is kind of braindead unfortunately.
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...yes? (Also, are you seriously, unironically, pulling a "Yet you participate in society? I am very intellect" on me here?)
Camping and tunneling doesn't happen every game. Hell for myself at least, camping/tunneling might happen 1/8 games or so (though that number did seem to spike with the event).
It's irksome and boring but the killer is free to do what they want
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I honestly think survivors hiding is a reason for tunneling, which means I am arguing in good faith.
You, on the other hand, gave up, and are doing the “just spitting out catchphrases” thing, so we’re done here.
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I gave up because I tried my best to provide solutions and you completely shut down.
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The soluton is to buff not tunnelling to normalize the strength between the 2 strategies then nerf killer to bring it down to a 60% kill rate. The only way to fix tunnelling is to normalize the strength between tunnelling and not tunnelling. As long as tunnelling is significantly stronger, killers will keep doing it.
Eruption was busted on only a particular set of killers, particularly ones with high mobility and could hold 3 gens well because they could easily setup Eruption on multiple gens and get minutes of gen stall on each down. On other killers it was a good perk but not busted. For example, if you ran it on Myers, you would waste time kicking 1 gen, waste a lot of time getting a down, and Eruption would maybe hit a survivor. It was ok. Killers were still tunnelling because Eruption only good but not busted on most killers.
But if you manage to tunnel someone out at 5 gens, you already won. PR made no difference. PR + No Way Out is just an example. You could make it Grim Embrace + No Way Out and the killer would basically get 0 value from these perks if they were tunnelling.
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If they're basekit, what's to stop them from bringing perks to help while tunneling whilst still getting value from thos effects later in game?
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The fact that you get less value from those perks if you tunnel. For example, if Grim Embrace activates while there are 4 survivors alive, you get more value since you are wasting the time of 4 survivors. If you tunnel, the perk would probably only activate while 2-3 survivors are alive, causing you to gain far less value. It's also easier to find survivors when there are more alive. The only perk that killers can run to help tunnel is Deadlock and tunnelers already run that perk.
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But you still gain from it even though you tunneled someone out.
You don't need it to do a lot when there's only three people alive.
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You dont need to do it even once, but they are.
Question! I dont tunnel as Ive not needed too yet. But to those that do, if you get a survivor out early in the game, do you continue to tunnel? Does your strat change once there are three survivors left? Two?
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Even if its effective as survivor tunneling and face camping feel actually terrible to play against. Just like as a killer gen rushing, bully squads, sweaty perks like MFT and Deli feel terrible to play against. What needs to end up happening is for BHVR to absolutly destroy all of these things.
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