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Please do not mindlessly nerf Wesker just because he's popular

Dear People of The Fog,

there have been threads plopping up here that Wesker needs a nerf because he is played much and therefore must be OP, as this seems to be the reasoning for survivor perks getting nerfed. I am writing this to collect what complaints were mentioned and what I think of them to provide a more grounded view. I dare say I am pretty experienced with over 6k hrs. I might not be the best out there by far, but I have a good understanding of the game. Most of my hrs are from the Survivor side, but when I play killer I usually play Wesker. I do not belong to the Wesker Gods out there yet, but I know of all the funny stuff you can do with him and I am also able to perform all of them (although not all consistently yet).

Now to the main reason I write this post.

  • "Wesker is played often, therefore he is OP and needs a nerf."

Not all Killers, perks or addons are OP, just because they are used often. Best example: Engravings on Billy. Wesker is FUN to play as he has an interesting power with high skill-ceiling that is satisfying to use (throwing or smacking survivors against objects is cool) but still leaves Survivors with enough coulterplay so that the player comes out top who was better, which is good design. His base-kit is strong enough not to be addon reliant, and his addons are all quite balanced. None of them is per se OP.

Also Wesker was the last Killer who had interesting gameplay to offer as Knight and Skullmerchant are the best at 3-genning, which is widely considered very boring. I can't tell much for the Singularity as I haven't really played that Killer since release. The gameplay just seems so clunky to me. And facing the Singularity is just nothing special. Therefore it is understandable that some players do not play those characters, but the last one who was actually proviging interesting gameplay. And that is Wesker.

Variety in matches is nice but should be NEVER a reason to get it nerfed. Back in late 2018/early 2019 95% of your matches on red ranks was Nurse, Billy and Spirit with the occasional Huntress in there. The other 5% were either very skilled with that killer and very terrifying for that reason (best exaples: Trapper and Doc) or just doing a daily.

The difference here is that both Spirit and Nurse were OP back then. Nurse had no cooldown, Omega Blink was a thing and she could have 5 blinks with little drawback. Spirit had no phase sound if you were in her TR, making chases against her extremly frustrating as you were basically tossing a coin every time if you would live or not. Her addons were on the same level as Blight's right now. Billy had one broken combo (Insta saw, or charge speed with engraving) but got gutted with the rework. Somehthing that I don't understand to this day. He was also a fun killer to play and to play against, strong but still balanced with high skill ceiling.

Look at him now....

Neither Wesker nor Blight are OP. Even Nurse is at a good spot right now I think. Basekit blight is completely fine. He just needs some addons getting looked at (Alc Ring, C33, Adre Vial and maybe speed).

No need to repeat the Billy tragedy.

  • "All Weskers I face are just tunneling. It's so ez to tunnel with him and therefore he must be nerfed."

Tunneling is not a specific problem with Wesker. In fact there are other killers who can easily tunnel via their basekit (Pyramid Head), just because they are strong (Nurse, Blight, Spirit, Huntress) or can ignore Endurance with their power (Deathslinger) or via add-ons (Pinhead, Pig). People just think Wesker players tunnel the most as he is one of the most seen killers in some MMR regions. Therefore the chances are higher for a player they meet to tunnel than if they face a PyH once in 30 matches. Then there is also the "definition" problem of tunneling. Some say "tunneling" for anything while some say "tunneling" if the killer stops what he's doing just to get you out of the match.

Nonetheless there IS a way in which Wesker can tunnel well if he choses to. That often includes the usage of the Video Conference Device, which reduces the passive infection time by 30%. This causes unhooked survivors who have their infection set to 50/100 charges to get the infection debuff after just 40s (instead of 60s) which is not much in both cases. This is the ONLY part of his kit that might need some adjustment, although I would favour a global anti-tunneling mechanic over nerfing killers.

This adjustment could be:

  1. Removing infection on hook. This is very problematic as it almost completely removes information and slowdown from his kit as you would rarly need to spray yourslf then in the first place. This would be similar to wake up from Freddy's Dream without having the automatic timer afterwards.
  2. Pausing the passive infection until you do a Conspicous Action. That is a double edged sword as Survivors could use it to bodyblock for others without getting punished for it.
  3. Setting the infection meter upon getting hooked to 1/100 charges. This way the timer is about 120s (or 80s with VCD) until it is full. Common anti tunnel perks are active for 60 or 80s after getting unhooked so I used this as a guideline. If Wesker tunnels you off the hook for 80/120s after getting unhooked, there will be 2 gens finished after this is over. This also makes it not so punishing if you get hit with a dash during the BT effect and increasing your infection like it would be with it being set to 50%.
  • "HIs hitbox is so bad"

Hitboxes are just a rough approximation of your character. It is actually just a cylinder for killer and survivor. There are many videos out there on YT explaining this.

  • "He grabs you through windows and pallets"

That was a bug that existed for the last 6 months and is fixed with the next mid-chapter. He was always only supposed to just injure and infect you when you are mid-vault.

  • "All his techs are exploits."

Now I opened Pandora's Box.... but all techs are not exploits until the devs say otherwise. Blight Hug-Tech is considered a bug, but we still don't know if they decided it to be a feature or if they are still trying to fix it. They never said anything about Wesker's fun stuff so the Devs seem to be fine with it for now.

BTW: You can still still dodge rebounds if you know where he will do it, and even Hug-Techs can be dodged. Most people just don't know the signs of Wesker doing this.


Constructive thoughts are welcome.

Stay safe in the Fog.

Comments

  • JustAnotherNewbie
    JustAnotherNewbie Member Posts: 1,941

    I don't think killers/perks should be nerf because they're popular that is silly. Wesker is as popular as he is because he is a licensed character and he was a great design, might even be the best designed licensed character BHVR has ever added. Every new killer that has come after is getting compared to Wesker, which imo is really silly. Wesker was simply a gold-mine. Nothing will probably top him and if there will be a killer who does then we should consider ourselves lucky to witness that.


    I think his problems lie on the fact that he can tunnel super easily because of his power and his exploits which raise his skill ceiling by a lot imo. Thankfully I have not had to face a monstrous Wesker who can use his exploits and do godly things, but if these become features then we have to start looking at Wesker in a different way than we do atm. Just cause it's niche atm doesn't mean people will not get better at him and his overall skill level will increase. You can get away with saying they're not a problem because at the moment very few people can use them reliably, but he's been out for less than a year. Plus the time people need to become good at a playstyle shrinks exponentially over time because the playerbase's skill grows as well as more discoveries are made. The difficult part is finding new things to use on each killer/perk not actually learning how to do them, that usually takes less time.

  • LapisInfernalis
    LapisInfernalis Member Posts: 4,218

    Can we please not call techniques exploits if they are not called like this by the Devs? Thank you.

    Calling techniques "exploits" by default just puts a negative light on them from the start.

    None of Wesker's techniques are broken.

  • DrKetchup
    DrKetchup Member Posts: 159

    It's like an Orwellian nightmare. One day he is considered the most fun killer to play against, then the next day he is the most horrible killer and deserves to be removed from the game. It's really scary to see how easily people's perceptions can be influenced by a few content creators. What's next? Huntress?

  • LapisInfernalis
    LapisInfernalis Member Posts: 4,218

    This is what I thought as well and mainly the reason behind this post.

    There is a loud minority (mostly content creators) out there who say he is broken and then a few loud people just parrot what they heard from them.

  • JustAnotherNewbie
    JustAnotherNewbie Member Posts: 1,941
    edited July 2023

    You have to keep in mind the people who enjoy playing vs Wesker are probably not the same as the ones who don't enjoy playing against him. Also some people just hate getting chased in general, so of course they would hate Wesker as he can negate the distance one can make with something like SB(or any other exhaustion perk) vs an M1 killer.


    I have had people in my team bring Spine Chill who go hiding out of fear of the killer or hiding in lockers. They are usually not very good in chases. Small wonder they'd dislike Wesker. You need to understand Wesker's power somewhat and not make decisions in panic to last against him.

  • LapisInfernalis
    LapisInfernalis Member Posts: 4,218

    Then those players should naturally dislike Nurse, Spirit, Blight or even Huntress as well.

    And maybe encourage them to learn how to loop properly.

  • CrusaderNella
    CrusaderNella Member Posts: 331

    Let us hope the spread sheets do not give BHVR enough reason to nerf him

  • JustAnotherNewbie
    JustAnotherNewbie Member Posts: 1,941

    They probably already do dislike those killers, Wesker is just more popular than all of them combined, especially on lower levels.

  • LapisInfernalis
    LapisInfernalis Member Posts: 4,218

    Really? I thought he is more popular on higher levels.

    I see to be in a strange limbo then as I see maybe 1 Wesker in 15 matches which is quite similar to at least his pick rate according to Nightlight.

  • JustAnotherNewbie
    JustAnotherNewbie Member Posts: 1,941

    I think he's popular across all levels. Perhaps he seems more common in high MMr because less weak killers are played, so the pool of killers can be smaller. But if I were to assume, I'd think he'd be more popular in low/mid levels because casual players like him since RE is so popular. It's also why RE survivors are stereotyped as been total noobs. (Leons having half a braincell, Rebecca's dying 10 seconds in a chase, Claire's also being meh etc.)

  • LapisInfernalis
    LapisInfernalis Member Posts: 4,218

    Yeah, completely forgot that he has the popularity factor too.

    Leon is the new Dwight I suppose ^^. I use my P26 Chris to get a break from all the crap that comes with playing a P100 character. Even if said character is Jeff.

  • Ripley
    Ripley Member Posts: 866

    My success rate as solo queue survivor - I've not survived a single match against him. I feel like there is literally nothing you can do against him. I'm not that good at looping. I am not a sweaty SWF player. Maybe it's my personal skill ceiling; I have yet to face a "bad" Wesker.

    I hate how MM works in this game. If it's quiet time not enough killers on, it's Wesker, Nurse and Spirits that 4K at 5 gens, that are way above my skill level.

  • LapisInfernalis
    LapisInfernalis Member Posts: 4,218

    I'm sorry to hear that. MMR is bad for newer players and Wesker as well as Nurse and Spirit or Blight are difficult to verse for inexperienced players. But they are beatable. Just continue in getting better and improving. Go and watch loop tutorials on YT like those from OhTofu and I also think Otzdarva has also something similar. Use Windows of Opportunity to see where loops are and learn how to look back during the chase. You will improve as long as you don't just hide.

    When I was in a similar situation back in the day I used all the perks that caused the killer to find and chase me so I needed to learn it.

    Don't lose hope!

  • Raptorrotas
    Raptorrotas Member Posts: 3,249

    Dont worry, its just Weskers turn in the "NERF CURRENT FOTM TOP KILLER"-rotation. It'll die down naturally or after the devs cave in again and adjust him slightly nerf him. Then he'd be safe for aproxximately 4months before he gets targeted again.

    Its just part of being a strong popular killer.

    Cant wait till survivor gets nerfed because theyre in every trial. God, using the logic applied to killers by our community on survivors always sounds so insane, its funny how those survivors dont notice how crazy the stuff is they demand.

  • Ripley
    Ripley Member Posts: 866

    I have thousands of hours already. But it doesn't matter in solo queue when you have a queue system that will prioritise wait time over MMR. I am not going to study videos to git gud, I'm controller player with some disabilities. It just would be nice not to have to be thrown into these matches as someone else's grind fodder.

  • LapisInfernalis
    LapisInfernalis Member Posts: 4,218

    I think it's mostly because a handful of streamers complain and some people just parrot what they hear without thinking it through.

    I just hope it dies down. Wesker is one of the best designed killers out there. It would be a shame to destroy him because of some loud crying minority.

    Oh OK. Sry. I just thought that, because he is a bit more difficult to understand for new players since he has so much stuff going on.

    I can completely understand that MM can be really frustrating. I can't even play solo anymore because I play a lot with newer players atm and therefore have a lower escape rate which lowers my MMR. If I'd play solo I would loose my sanity with all the headless chicken running around, as it would not matter if I looped the killer for 3min...

    I would wish for the old MM to come back. It was by far not ideal, but at least better than today. And on killer I would not have a sweat feast after another with the occasional noob group in between, but actually a variety of difficulty.

  • mizark3
    mizark3 Member Posts: 2,253
    edited July 2023

    I agree that popularity nerfs (as seen in perks in 6.1.0) are bad. Fixing problems such as his turbo-tunnel potential (which you partially address) is good. I would also extend the Killer Instict on Spray to not work on Survivors who haven't done a CA after hook yet. That way you can't turbo tunnel the Surv who just got off hook and sprayed to avoid an untimely death, instead putting the target back on them.

    Blight bug tech is a known bug claimed to be seeking a fix, and when I asked a while ago the Dev response was that using known bugs is NOT bannable. That was also when you could infinite stack Flashbangs, and I asked in reference to bug abuses on both sides. Now technically this isn't the most helpful, because the in-game the report literally has one of the options be "EXPLOITS - Report this player for exploiting bugs (emphasis mine), errors in design, or cheats to obtain a competitive advantage (emphasis again mine)." That just probably needs an updated description to match the one on the forums currently, as well as the Griefing category to include Intentionally ruin gameplay experience or some such. Technically with this (misleading) definition bug tech and Wesker bugs are bannable with this definition, but Sky Billy isn't, yet they instantly fix Sky Billy for no justifiable reason unless they hate fun. Overall the exploits aren't the intended strength of the Killer, and nerfing the Killer in general to counter balance with NOT fixing the bugs would be fair, if an annoying way to punish variety Killers who don't learn all the exploits. Personally I'd prefer the bugs be fixed, because he is very fun and fair to play as and against without bugs (barring the turbo-tunnel).

    I partially agree with your analysis of 'all Weskers camp and tunnel'. I do think at least in some part the stronger Killers do draw in the sweatier players though. That increases the odds of them camping and tunneling to sweat. It also is negativity bias, where like MfT, people remember all their losses against MfT/SweatWeskers more, but not their victories against MfT and non-sweat Weskers.

    Blight not OP - Yeah, well, that just like, your opinion man. Jokes aside I think any Killer that I personally can turn off my brain and win (3k+) with meme/no perks consistently (66%+) is OP. Currently that is Blight/Nurse (and Spirit before my hearing damage got too bad, that just means I still think Spirit is OP, only my failing body makes me unable to personally capitalize on her potential.). I do think Oni and Wesker are also both contenders if I played them more to master them to the point of muscle memory. Wesker has (almost too much) basekit slowdown, and Oni has (almost too much) lethality and basekit intel in the form of the blood orbs. Artist is just more annoying to deal with, because I don't feel as though you get enough distance when you outplay her, but I wouldn't say she is OP by my definition (perks amp her potential by a greater degree than many of the other Killers I talked about).

    Edit: Fixed spelling

    Also reading a couple other responses I saw something about MMR allegedly being worse for lower tiers. IIRC the devs said MMR helps the larger percentage of the population (the lower MMR), while not signifcantly changing the 'top-MMR' experience in comparison to Red Ranks of old.

  • LapisInfernalis
    LapisInfernalis Member Posts: 4,218

    Thanks for your reply.

    I also thought about removing the killer instinct after unhook when spraying, but I thought it to be too much. Your idea about making it cause no killer instinct as long as you don't do anything seems fair.

    I think Blight is OK without the busted addons and maybe without Hug-tech as this enables him to get crazy hits. But I really think that an addon pass would be a sufficient step for now. Imagine him getting Billy treatment. That would be so bad.

    I think Wesker and Oni are both strong but not too strong. Sure Wesker has a huge basekit but so has SM: Undetectable, pinpoint info, speed, slowdown, insta-down, stall with 3-gen setup... Or Freddy just as he got reworked (back then people were saying that he can do everything): teleport, slowdown, chase, stealth and anti BT.

    So I don't think Wesker can do too much.

  • mizark3
    mizark3 Member Posts: 2,253

    Blight - I think Blight could survive a Billy level add-on pass, even his basekit is so ridiculously stacked its kinda insane.

    Freddy - I'm not sure which rework you are talking about because he's probably had the most out of all Killers. Back when Ruin+Undying gave like 2-4 totems you needed to cleanse Freddy was definitely too powerful in terms of slowdown. Swing Chains was a Thana-like add-on for dream world Survivors (that could also stack with Thana as well), and Outdoor rope/Jump Rope was like an extra stack or two respectively, it was so stupid. It was almost like you had 10 gens to complete if you went against him as Survivor, that was definitely a dark time.

  • jayoshi
    jayoshi Member Posts: 317
    edited July 2023

    They don't tweak/nerf based off of popularity. They tweak killers based on their kill rate. If that was the case then the Twins would be massively buffed. They like the kill rate on the Twins, so they are going to keep them the same even though hardly anyone plays as them. They also said that about Trapper too even though a lot of people think he needs a buff. They have said they like where his kill rate is currently at.

    So if we get a Wesker nerf, it's not because of his popularity - it's because of how many kills on average he gets. If it stays at a nice rate, then no need to worry. If he gets too many kills easily, then he is clearly OP and would need a tweak. IMO, I don't think he is OP and I don't see them reworking him. I could see them doing a tweak here and there to some of his add-ons

  • LapisInfernalis
    LapisInfernalis Member Posts: 4,218

    Yep, I'm also talking about Forever Freddy, but more the time before the Blight (and old Undying) came.

  • LapisInfernalis
    LapisInfernalis Member Posts: 4,218

    I hope so, but I have also seen a lot nerfs with the Devs saying that they did it because it was everywhere in the forums or on reddit.

  • DaddyMyers_Mori
    DaddyMyers_Mori Member Posts: 2,205

    Well, not like that's good approach.

    But they improved at it a little. If they were sticking to kill rate onli, then Nurse would never get nerfed.

    But they also said Trapper and Myers are fine with their kill rate, so here we go again...

  • jayoshi
    jayoshi Member Posts: 317
    edited July 2023

    Nurse's kill rate is actually not that big. A lot of players trying her out do really bad so that balances out the really good nurse killers. So it is tricky to only go off of kill rate alone.

    Edit: I think that's what you were trying to say lol I should learn to read more vs skimming haha