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Endgame is broken
Once the last gen pops you lose. Killer is completely helpless in endgame without a NWO or NOED. I get that endgame being survivor sided is a reward for finishing the gens but thats another thing, they only even finished the gens because I actively chose to play fairly and not tunnel. I'm being punished for playing nice.
If you are playing fair on all but 2 killers in the whole roster, survivors equal to you in skill are making it to endgame with at least 3 alive. Meaning thats 2 survivors to take protection hits and bodyblock you, 2 survivors to go 99 both gates, etc etc. im not gonna get into details.
Essentially what im getting at is that endgame is just a loss for the killer. Which is stupid because playing fair will always get you to endgame against good survivors. Its completely unfair for endgame to be this unfair to killer, to the point that things like protection hits have 0 risk involved once it begins. In fact, NOTHING has any risk in endgame!
- Unhooked survivors have basekit BT, meaning if the gates within 44m they escape. Moreover, if theres a pallet within 44m then they will very easily be able to get distance from that to the gate. Combine this with the inevitable protection hits and that survivor is guaranteed to escape.
- Any strategy you use in endgame is void. Camping? 2 survivors rushing the hook guarantees they get free, unless their incredibly dumb. Which loops around to the first bullet. Tunneling? You arent gonna be able to start and finish a chase without them making enough distance to the gates to escape on almost every single killer. Then coordinated teams will be taking hits constantly since those have 0 risk anymore.
- Protection hits become a ggez. Normally the counter to protection hits is just to hit them. The downside being they are now more vulnerable and give great slowdown for later. its a risky tradeoff you take to help your buddy out. But not in endgame! Simple spend the measly 20s to 99 the gate then rush over to take as many hits as possible. They are not going down before they reach the gate. One hit guarantees 25s of distance before they can m1. Granted thats a 4.6 m1 based calculation, but it holds true. Not every single killer can use their power on every single loop. Even wesker can easily be dodged by just running behind stuff at long range. and since 25/4 is 100... if their healthy at the start of the chase then if the gates within 100m they escape. Throw in protection hits and adrenalines and MFT+hopes and its just unwinnable
- MFT HOPE. THIS COMBO IS JUST NOT FAIR. Nobody with these two perks is dying in endgame. Sure with other survivors there was a chance at the very least, you could severely outplay and get an early down etc. MFT hope just guarantees that if you are alive when the gens pop, you are escaping. Adrenaline shares this issue a tiny bit... but adrenaline pops once and thats it. a big chase extender, even better if you are injured etc. But thats it, the effects over. MFT hope guarantees you just win the entire game in endgame. As if MFT didnt do enough of that.
Theres a reason killers love NWO and NOED so much. They are the only things making it possible to comeback in endgame. Any hook you get in endgame thats not a kill is worthless. If theres 2 others they all escape. If theres one, you get your 3k by camping etc. But even thats only IF you can catch them. Horrendous map RNG, mft hope, protection hits, 99ed gates, basekit bt and many more make doing just that extremely difficult.
Why do survivors get hatch and 4% for clutch mechanics when their being stomped but killers have nothing? Thats not rhetorical its actually kind of confusing. Pretty much everything about killer falls apart in endgame. Pressure? useless. Hooks? near pointless unless you already have a 2k. Chasing? near impossible thanks to a certain combo. etc etc the list goes on. the game breaks down in endgame.
Comments
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You aren't being punished for playing fair and not tunneling. You were outplayed. That's all there is to it.
Sure MFT + Hope is broken, but Hope by itself would've had them escape anyway. Your problem is that once survivors finish those gens, your chances of winning decrease drastically and rightfully so. You, as the killer, failed to prevent the survivors from completing their objective.
What, exactly, do you think Killer should get once all the gens are done since you're clearly upset about hatch and that 4% self-unhook chance? Free hook states? 5% Haste?
Here's the thing about not tunneling: It isn't a free pass to do whatever they want. It's a chance for them to get well away from the hook. If they jump on a gen, try to blind you, bodyblock, or do anything aside from healing, then they're fair game.
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Of all the things you just listed, MFT + Hope is the only one that’s actually a problem.
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ah yes because dealing with 3 protection hits with 0 risk involved has innumerable counters and in no way is a free escape
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People are just never happy. The other side has always got to be nerfed to oblivion.
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End game seems to be when everything falls apart in my experience. Maybe it's a solo queue thing.
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Sounds like you should be asking for "playing fairly" to be more rewarding instead of losing all the gens, because you know who else loses all the gens? Crap players. Killers already got otr, ds, and anti camp disabled in endgame, they don't deserve more, they deserve less if anything since many killers can just camp for a free 1k, but they do deserve more before endgame
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You’re not meant to be able to guarantee a kill at the end of the game. Certain killers that are good at camping can do that, but in general, if you cannot catch a survivor in endgame because of protection hits, then it’s because you failed to stop them from powering the gates and escaping. If all 4 survivors are still alive in endgame, you are already in a bad spot unless you have an endgame build.
As for base BT in endgame - not having that would just recreate the same issue that it was meant to solve. The only counter to being instantly downed off the hook would be that survivors are forced to start running BT again which the devs have made clear they don’t want as the strategy otherwise had no basekit counterplay for the survivor being unhooked. We’ve also seen how it was with only 5 seconds of protection and how that wasn’t enough to be effective in most cases.
But yes, MFT + Hope is super broken, no disagreement there. I don’t think most endgame perks are even worth running on killer as long as that combo is popular, you’re better off trying to win before Hope activates. NOED is the only endgame perk that helps counter 110% speed survivors.
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I get that and all but then by that logic hatch and 4%s should be removed. They failed to stop the killer from downing them all/killing everyone else, so their chances of winning should decrease drastically. with 4%s thats mostly true, in most cases people will end up shredding themselves. But then again why should there be a 1/25 chance they clutch up? Or, if the killer got 3 kills, why should there be a way for the last survivor to escape instantly?
because its not over til its over. I think it'd be nice if basekit BT had its duration decreased to 5 or 6s in endgame, so you at least have a chance to down them after an unhook. Or maybe all survivors lose collision so they cant take protection hits. That sounds kinda drastic and all, but protection hits are balanced around the risk and tradeoff. If theres neither then why should they still be allowed? or maybe the exit gates take 30s to open and regress to 25/30 if left unopened. At least that way they'd need to deal with EGC, a largely redundant mechanic that really only stops hostage situations. im just spitballing here.
Its just dumb how easy endgame is for survivor. If you want, you can just open the gate and leave whenever you want. Its that simple. And unless you are playing a mobile chase killer, you arent catching someone before they reach the gates if they started healthy. Which they absolutely will since adrenaline is the second most used survivor perk.
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no you cant just camp for a free 1k. thats only if theres 2 survivors alive which you've already won at that point. any other time any hook you get is pointless thanks to basekit bt and 0 risk protection hits. Dont even try "the gens got done so you are a bad killer". The average killrate (last we saw) was 61%. That means 2 survivors escape on average. That means that the gens get done on average. Are you trying to say that on average, killers are just bad players? Thats just wrong. And those stats were from the gen kick meta, a meta notorious for making games unwinnable for survivors.
hmm... remove nearly all regression=gens go faster. who woulda thunk it.
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1 Yeah you can, play bubba or trickster or billy or someone else and there's zero counterplay for the survs and you get a 1k effortlessly 2 I didn't say that, I said bad killers make it to endgame, which is just true, and they shouldn't be rewarded
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I've had games where all my chases were less then 20 seconds start to finish. Winning all mind games and the gens still get done. Tell me how that's outplayed? It's called gen speed is way faster then the killer can do there objective even playing near perfect.
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1 okay what. bubba billy and trickster all have counterplay. there is a reason they are all c tier. if I want a guaranteed 1k I'll play nurse or blight. 2 bad survivors make it to hatch. being a coward will get your teammates killed but at least you have a chance at hatch. its to the point where if theres two survivors left at like 3 gens, the most opimal play is to LET ONE DIE and take hatch. because hatch lets you escape for free while doing gens requires effort. If survivors get a clutch mechanic why cant the killer? You say killers dont need more just because anti tunnel perks deactivate in endgame. Why do you even think they do that? so the killer can have any semblance of a chance.
3 a bad killer will make it to endgame but their only getting kills with noed. even the worst survivor in the game can get hatch or 4%.
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1 So what? You want bubba billy trickster etc to stay C tier? I'd think not 2 I agree with hatch being dumb but the killer hardly deserves the chance they get with those perks being deactivated in endgame, just makes camping for a 1k even easier 3 A bad killer will make it to endgame and still get a 1k because camping is also something a bad killer will do
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1 what does this even mean? you said you can easily play them and 1k because they have 0 counterplay which is just wrong. and now because I point out that you are wrong you are saying that I want them to stay c tier? thats not a rebuttal thats a strawman.
2 ds would be a free escape. OTR would be a free escape. i dont really get how you can want MORE lose lose scenarios in the game.
3 reasonable, except a bad killer wont have any kills before endgame. making that unhook extremely easy, making that escape extremely easy as well. a few protection hits and a 99 guarantees they make it.
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i dont remember saying anything like that. All I said is that endgame is too easy for survivors. the game breaks down after the last gen. everything that its built around is meaningless. Pressure is useless, unhooks are safe because gates are easy to reach. all killer can do is get a very quick down and hope they get a grab. something being removed next update. fact is endgame is just a loss if you dont bring NWO.
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1 I didn't notice the part where u said they have counterplay, but no they do not, it's a free 1k when they're camping
2 Because bad killers who make it to endgame shouldn't be able to continuously tunnel? Like a bad killer would?
3 Hardly, because any killer can simply hold out their chainsaw or whatever and just force a trade
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welcome to dbd, endgame is SUPPOST to favor killers to make up for 3 gens poping instanlty after you get your first down sadly bhvr has determined that killers get no advantge ever. here's my advice vs any half decent team the gens are getting down no matter what, with no slowdown to stop them they can just drop every god pallet have their crutch perks carry them in chase and slam the gens in under 5 minutes so just camp the first guy you find to 2nd state or tunnel them out then bring a full endgame build and try to win that way it's pretty much the only thing you can do as killer these days, oh and you also have to use a B tier killer or higher or else you'll just lose because the killer you picked is bad/weak. try wesker he's pretty fun and strong
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😭
in that context i think i was talking about bloodlust though...
which I do feel is far different from endgame.
going against a bloodlust gamer is an easy win
going against 4 adrenalines/mft hope is saddening
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1 yes they do that's why their in lower tiers
2 in high mmr gens are getting down no matter how good you play as killer so just because a killer made it to endgame doesn't mean their bad the game is desgined to get to endgame
3 wrong, because bhvr handhold mechainics like base kit BT/ and soon built in deliverance prevent this
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1 I'm referring to them in camping situations not in general, hopefully you realize that, because they indeed have no counterplay in camping situations
2 High mmr doesn't exist, and I didn't say that, I just said bad killers make it to endgame which is true. So instead of requesting endgame to be even easier for killer, how about asking for good players to be rewarded and not forced into making it to endgame?
3 Basekit bt doesnt help stop a trade at all and the anti camp feature will be disabled in endgame, so theres still gonna be nothing stopping a killer from guaranteeing a 1k in endgame with that
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How is basekit bt handholding?
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1 Wrong again if you can't unhook a survivor vs a camping killer with grabs being removed and base kit BT/anti camp you're just bad.
high mmr is a thing just because you're not in it doesn't mean it isn't real And the only reason survivors make to endgame 98% of games is because they have 20 billion built in crutches 4% chase perks gen speeds crutch perks and bad map desgin all working in their favor that way even you suck at survivor you can still make it endgame .
basekit bt does stop trades when the whole team body blocks survivors have control of the match not killer.
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Hatch exists to prevent hostage situations. No hatch, one survivor left, killer could hold them hostage. I don't really care about hatch, but the odds of actually getting that 4% are so low that it doesn't really matter. As for bodyblocks, that's what you have STBFL for.
If all your chases took less than 20 seconds start to finish, and it took you a maximum of 30 seconds between chases, there is really no way the survivors should've got all the gens done unless they had toolboxes. Gen speed isn't faster than the killer can do their objective. The game is designed in such a way that you aren't meant to 4k every game.
One survivor working on a gen takes 90 seconfs to complete. Two survivors working on a gen brings it down to around 52 seconds. Three brings it down to 45 seconds. If you have an average chase time of 20 seconds, start to finish, 7 seconds to hook a survivor, that's 27 seconds spent which leaves you with 25 seconds to locate survivors.
So, either your story is cap or you left out important details like whether or not the survivors had toolboxes and perks to make gens go faster.
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If the whole team body blocks vs one of those killers and others then they'll all go down, quite literally just objectively isn't possible vs a bubba with a brain without deliverance or a specific perk or something. High mmr isn't a thing, it's been shown over and over again because the softcap is too low. Also ig we don't gotta talk about the crutches killer has like S tier killers, with their S tier addons, easy slowdown like deadlock, the continued easability to tunneling, etc. Pretty clear you got a "surv players bad killer players good" type bias
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"high mmr isnt real" what
once again camping doesnt guarantee a 1k at all. Only if you already have two kills. 2 survivors can easily coordinate a safe save, its not even hard. plus if you have a 2k you already win so
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High mmr is indeed not real, sorry tru3 andys
Also yeah it does as the killers I mentioned, doesn't matter what survs do at all, a bubba for example will literally just down the unhooker and you can never get everyone out of that situation
Also a 2k isn't a win lol
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Killer couldnt hold survivor hostage if hatch was gone. If they choose not to down them they do gens. if they do down them they bleed. Not to say either situations are any fun, but they arent hostage situations.
Expecting chases to finish in 20s is ludicrous. BHVR themselves have said they balance for 48s long chases. If chases were 20s long then gen regression wouldnt be necessary.
If survivors split up on gens when you have no pressure, one chase can finish a whole 5th of their objective progress wise. 20 chases dont exists without alch ring blight. Hell, injuring someone gives 20s worth of distance to begin with.
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And yes some S tier survivor perks are in fact crutch perks unbreakble free pick with 0 input what so ever after you outplayed and downed
life can get you free distance at a T-L wall even if the killer makes the right read and outplays you
sprint burst get's you free distance for 0 effort what so ever and any killer that isn't wesker or blight can't do anything about it
balanced rewards you for being out positioned just like sprint burst and let's not forget the newest crutch perk made for this free %3 haste for getting OUTPLAYED at a tile again with 0 input for survivor.
all these perks have one thing in common and that's "oh killer outplayed you? too bad down them again" that's a crutch perk now please list all the killer crutch perks that give you things for free with 0 input oh wait you can't because they're are none. killers have to earn their perks survivors don't hexes don't counter either because their able to be switched off forever.
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Yes and no.
It's true the killer probably isn't magically getting a 4k at end game if nobody is dead but it does mean if you do go down you're probably screwed cuz the killer is never leaving once you're hooked and even with grabs being removed we're probably just playing hook roulette at end game so somebody is dying.
I know that doesn't really make the killer feel better but no survivor really wants to be the one the doesn't make it out.
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fair enough with deadlock, but corrupt? you at least need to do something for corrupt to get value. deadlock just makes the game slower for free. also nurses addons are fine now, most are useless. except maybe campbells....
Post edited by EQWashu on0 -
You need to do what for corrupt to get value? Also no they're not, 3 blink, lunge distance, jenners, etc. I've also heard scary things about how the undetectable addon impacts chase
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3 blink should be reworked to be fair. but the cooldown increase isnt worth it if you are a good nurse. it extends lunge by like 0.1s. jenners is so useless I forgot what it does. campbells is the only addon you can argue to be broken. also if undectable is really an issue for someone facing nurse idk what to tell them.
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just remembered what jenners does lmao. its alright... it only gives one blink though so its easily mindgameable. i
sidenote for corrupt you need to win chase...? it just corrals survivors to you, it doesnt automatically down them for you.
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1 i have no clue what you even mean. How is undetectable useful in chase? Its just not. Jenners refills one blink sure but 1 blink can be mindgamed. you seem like one of those people who thinks nurse is this uncounterable demon that must be deleted.
also what? the second part just makes 0 sense.
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It hides the red stain, jenners also brings you back to where you were which is a big deal. You seem like one of those ppl who can't accept losing the game as killer but you didn't see me talking abt it.......
And for the second part, there's no survivor perks that can be considered crutches if the standard for a killer perk crutch is only if it "automatically downs them for you"
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nah corrupt is still one of the best perks in the game. The power it provides, even if just for one down, is absolutely still worth it.
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because it switches it self off after you get a down and it's only worthwhile on weaker killers that no one plays. example trapper. it simply isn't worth a perk slot comapred to other killer perks because suprise suprise bhvr killed it. just like they killed ruin. and a bunch of other perks that i'm not gonna bother listing
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Yet we've seen it on everyone from wesker and blight to myers and pig. Its nowhere near dead.
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no good blight is running corrupt buddy please send screenshots right now i'd love to see this. PS blight must be a least pretige 30 low mmr games don't count
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You know what thats fair I hadnt thought of that. Whenever I think undetectable I just think TR, the red stain could actually prove devastating to certain mindgames. especially on a mindgame based killer.
Fair enough, though I wouldnt describe corrupt as a crutch perk. Its something to help with the early game, the hardest time for killer since you have no pressure. And once it gives that pressure you need it deactivates which seems fair enough to me. Besides there are few actually earned perks in DBD. Sure a lithe or SB can be used in incredibly skillful ways but they arent earned unless you are actively conserving/managing them. I'd actually say pain res and adrenaline are the best designed perks in the game. Both reward being skilled and one discourages tunneling.
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I disagree. Corrupt is still very strong. Early game is the hardest time for killer since you have 0 pressure. So it makes getting that pressure significantly easier, then once it does its job is over. I use it on wesker mostly. The difference between post and pre nerf corrupt is that it no longer lets you snowball snow hard at 5 gens that the games just over.
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I wouldn't even necessarily describe anything I mentioned as a crutch perk tbh, just using the same standards as cheryl pfp to prove a point, just that both sides have strong stuff
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I get that endgame being survivor sided is a reward for finishing the gensOkay, good start here, once the survivors have the gens done and the escape phase is underway the game does radically swing in their advantage, which is what should happen.
they only even finished the gens because I actively chose to play fairly and not tunnel.If the survivors are that good, go ahead and tunnel if you think it will make it easier.
If you want to play an extreme not going to tunnel game, good for you, but that's not what it's designed for. Unless they change that radically they aren't going to redesign the end game.
If you are playing fair on all but 2 killers in the whole roster, survivors equal to you in skill are making it to endgame with at least 3 alive.Kind of sounds like MMR is working for you. You stipulate survivors equal to you in skill, getting three alive to endgame should be a common occurrence especially, as you said, if you're not tunneling.
Are you saying you never have games that you 4k on?
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I'm not a fan of the end game in DbD for either survivor or killer victories, but its meant to end the game, not be a new stage (I think EGC should start when the last gen is popped for example). Getting 1 more kill after the gens pop is far from impossible. Sure, if you can only hook them near the gates, they are probably getting free (as they should), but there are lots of other possibilities.
If they are on death hook, they're out.
If you are able to get them away from the gates, it becomes much riskier.
The survivors usually won't know for sure if you have an end game perk or not, so their actions can be risky.
Most killers have some chance of making the attempt to rescue the hooked survivor a risky play.
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lmao he really thought it couldnt be done and you just pull up with an otz video
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v1 low mmr blight bro trust, literally new player
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I do 4k in some of my games but it typically just feels like a coin flip. With the way dbd works a 2k can just equal a 4k if you decide to be evil, but if you arent the gens might pop and then its near impossible to get the 4k.
but on the part about endgame just being like the credits of a match, i hadnt thought of it like that. Thats actually a good way to look at it, games over we're just going through the motions. maybe something interesting will happen but probably not. thanks
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my dude i said at least p30 that isn't a good blight try again
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what are you talking about that isn't even a blight main LOL
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