Twins counterplay is way too strong
You can hop into lockers to completely avoid hits, travel in two to kick victor after he downs your friend and have them healed before Charlotte gets there, you can cause charlotte to have a 43 second cooldown by holding onto victor
You can stick close to an object and Victor's atrocious hitbox might hit that instead of you
You can hold crouch and remove any defensive capabilities victor has (seriously ######### is this, 'do X to completely remove an aspect of the killers power' is such horrible counterplay implementation)
So little of twins gameplay is actually in control of the killer. The only counter counterplay is getting used to victors hitbox but it's buggy and inconsistent
Imo, they should completely remove the ability to crouch and deny killer instinct. Most people don't know about this and twins is still low tier, so I feel like it really shouldn't exist. Dormant victor already has counterplay. Also you should be able to recall victor from lockers after 10 seconds and the survivor should be able to escape after 25
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Sure. Keep it in. Suddenly 100% of killers use victor near dhope and the game is all about single perk and getting 3 hooks.... No thank you.
And if you are talking - most people don't know about possibility to crounch, then you should not talk about counterplay to twins - because most people don't know about walking in pairs, going to lockers when you have distance, abusing stairs, etc. It's exactly the same argument. There's a counterplay, but you have to know what to do.
All that twins actually need are more lenient cooldowns. Switching from Charlotte to Victor and back takes ages for no good reason. They would immediately feel better should they fix this. Also why kicking Victor means power is disabled for 6s, but actually hitting survivor with Victor means your power is disabled for WAY longer? If anything, it should be the other way around (but ideally the time to use Victor again should not take that long).
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Victor already has counterplay outside of the crouch thing, having victor on totem the entire match and not having him for chases is awful
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you need 3 hooks with chase-oriented build - then just 2 more and all the next downs are GG. Not to mention you can still use Victor next to totem. Nope. That would be OP.
Again - Twins do need help, but mostly in making them feel better to play instead of waiting all the time
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If you jump into a locker victor can hold you there for Charlotte to arrive and grab you out of it... I mean sure if you are on the opposite side of the map then she probably wont reach you, but she gets 10 seconds to get there, according to the wiki, which is around 46m so unless you are on some god forsaken indoor map or on the opposite side of the map you have a good chance to get a locker grab.
As for the low tier claim, as far as I'm aware most people place Twins in bottom of A tier or high B tier, so I wouldnt call them low tier... For exampel:
Hens333 (accessable over his stream with command !tierlist):
or Knightlight (for a comp setting)(accessable over his stream with command !tierlist):
Therefore I don't think it is reasonable to place them in "Low tier"...
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when you give a killer a 150% movement speed with no terror radius or red stain that can jump through pallets and windows and can switch to another killer to be in more than one place then that killer needs to have counterplay.
until twins get reworked to make them more fun to go against they definitely need these stuff to stay.
this is bhvr's fault for making a poorly designed killer.
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Victor can't hook or damage gens and dies when he gets a single hit
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then he comes back after 6 seconds like the kick didn't even matter twins don't really get punished for missing but they do get punished with a lengthy time if the Survivor chooses to keep vic.
i always wanted this to be reversed so they can recall vic faster but when he's kicked he takes like 15-20 seconds to come back.
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Creative strategies and coordination can make facing twins at least a little bit fun considered victor is a free m1 in 90% situations. This is on top of the healing nerfs which were a massive buff for twins. Buckle up is way too strong rn though FTP buckle up on twins you just lose.
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Not true. You injure everyone and than go on a killing spree with victor. Provided they don't go in pairs, you can down their whole team. If not, you get 6s CD and need to go from charlotte's starting point. Not that bad considering Victor's speed.
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Don't take the word of other peoples tier lists as law, especially from people that don't play the killer they're ranking. I can't see how a killer with this much counterplay can be mid tier in a comp setting
And about the locker thing, 10 seconds is awful lmao considering it takes 3 seconds to switch back from victor and it's very rarely a straight shot to the locker
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"Provided they don't go in pairs" this entire post is here because they do go in pairs
It's a 13s cd when you get kicked and a 43s cooldown when you hit a healthy surv
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Where did you get 13s when kicked? Directly from wiki:
Survivors can perform the Crush action on him, crushing him in the process and forcing him to re-grow on Charlotte's after 6 seconds.
So 6 seconds...
As for your after hit and 43s:
Charlotte can voluntarily recall Victor after 30 seconds
IDK about you, but 30+6 is not 43...
Twins are really strong if you know how to play them. There's a reason why most players rate them quite high. There's also a reason why most people don't play them - that is, because they wait for everything and feel very bad to play because of it. If those CD's would be lower, then they would be more fun. But strength-wise - they can get hit pretty reliably if you as a player are good enough (especially thanks to healing nerfs).
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The question is when do the 10 seconds start? I dont think you can substract the 3 seconds switch. But I'm also not sure how much it is in total, it still quite some distance.
I just picked out two examples, as far as I know most people would place twins in the strongest third of them, and that with good reasoning. I would guess since Knightlight plays in the best comp team he knows how good the killer is when he goes against them on a regular basis in a comp setting, so how about you just go in his stream and ask him what he thinks about twins and maybe his reasoning is good enough?
And on a general note I don't think the game is too complex to not know, on a more general scale like good, bad, average, how good a killer is. Sure you can be wrong, but twins are in the game for quite some time and they were consistantly considered rather good, especially because of their ability to rely heavily on slugging. Especially guys like Hens, Otzdarva, Knightlight that have like ~10k hours in this game, there is only so much to know about this game.
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Thought it was 6 mb
And I have more arguments but this is an internet argument neither of us are gonna back down and this is boring
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I would be fine if you could swap to Charlotte during fatigue.
That 4 seconds fatigue after each down with Victor feels so bad....
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Revert the extra long stun post successful Victor pounce and allow them to recall Victor much sooner if the survivors taking them hostage. This would go a long way.
Bonus: Make her addons that effect “crushing Victor while idle” just say “crushing Victor”. Now they’re significantly better and people might actually consider using them. They’re currently bad. Most the debuff addons also have way too short of a duration. Blindness/Broken ect, they all need durations of 60 seconds to be decent.
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exactly this. Like it's a buff to already strong killer, but more importantly than that - it would make the killer feel MUCH BETTER to play. Maybe make even swapping between charlotte and victor a bit quicker too
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I literally just found out Victor can search lockers in a match the other day. The ones I was checking didn't have anyone in them and I'm not really sure what happens if someone is in one.
The visual was kind of funny - like a kid standing on tippy toes to reach something (though I only saw it through Victor's POV obviously)
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He keeps the locker locked so the survivor cant go out of it and you take control of charlotte automatically and can go there and grab them out.
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