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Do you think tunnelling is fair?
Comments
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No it's not fair, and is GGEz for the killer
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It's only fair that the most efficient strategy for the killer is also the most ????
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yeah. it's by mistakes being made.
like a bubba catching 3 survivors out of position in the first 2 minutes of the game.
or the killer losing a survivor in chase, allowing them all to reset
Myers is the only one, I dont see how Nemesis getting weaker in end game? Nemesis's power is designed to "feel" hes getting stronger in late game for how his M2 work: short range, takes 3 hits to down -> to longer range, break pallet, takes 2 hits to down (when there is no vaccin left). Zombies are also patrol between Gens, the less Gens, the shorter path they patrol, the shorter time for them to complete a lap between Gens.
I didn't say they get weaker, I said their power level changes.
trapper and hag also have a varied power level depending on if things are set up or not.
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this thread was about tunneling, not camping. there's kind of, almost, a decent analogue between a killer camping a hooked survivor and a survivor waiting out threats to finish a gen (there are some objections I'd make to that comparison as well, though to a lesser degree than comparing to tunneling)
i guess I failed to consider option c: just expected me to know you were talking about something else entirely
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most what?
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Is it fair... yes
Is it fun... no
4V1... chasing one leaves 3 to do Gens
3V1... chasing one leaves 2 to do Gens
It's not mechanic based it's gameplay based... what mechanics make tunneling a thing... what can BHVR do with those mechanics to make Tunneling worse
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"Tunneling gens" hahahaha what else can you expect from killer biased tsulan.
Post edited by 00berdisc on6 -
tunneling gens really?
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Tunneling is a legal dirty tactic that is fair against BM-survivors.
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This isn´t about 1v1. The 3 survivors can also turn the game around. Also see message above.
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Is that like an personal attack or something?
4 -
Per definition, tunneling is ignoring other targets in order to finish 1 target.
Apply this definition to gens. Et voila!
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Your comparison doesnt really work but go off i guess
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Camping and tunneling often go hand in hand. Especially in the mentioned situation.
You could also say that tunneling is doing the objective efficiently. As this is what often comes up when someone mentions gen rushing. Its just survivors doing their objective efficiently. Well the killers objective is to kill. But doing this efficiently is the least amount of fun (mainly for survivors). Since a player can´t play anymore. But when all gens are finished, no one can play anymore as the match is over.
There is a surprisingly high amount of survivors that will complain about dying with 26k bloodpoints after a 5 minute match, but will love escaping with 18k bloodpoints after a 5 minute match.
I prefer option d: the community still doesn´t see how similar the game is for both sides. One side will rush their objective and force the other side to do the same. Leaving little room for "nice" matches. This won´t change as long as both sides want to end a match asap.
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If you say so.
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but they're not the same thing. they may be closely related, but however closely we are related i am not my younger sister, and just as this account is run by me and not her, this thread is about one of those two things and not the other.
your "option D" really doesn't have anything to do with your original post. like, it's actually a fair and salient point, but there's no correlation between that idea and your original post, which was about how survivors wanting to make sure a mostly repaired gen doesn't regress too much is like a killer deciding one person only gets boldness BP this match (the whole point of the list of options was in regards to the intent behind your original post)
also "i reckon this is what some other people might say in various different scenarios" isn't really an argument, which is what the rest of your post boils down to ("i reckon some people defend survivors playing the game, how horrible", "i reckon survivors would get upset in one scenario i invented in my head but not another", etc)
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Yeah I think tunneling right at the start of the game should be punished more. Sometimes it is when killer chooses to tunnel wrong survivor but it should not be easiest stragedy to win. But sometimes killer has to tunnel first survivor when gens fly so game can't just force killer to hook others. Some basekit mechanic to slow down tunneling could be fine if gens speed also get slowed down or survivors get another objective.
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should I assume you don't play killer?
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Tunneling is fair IMO. I like being tunneled. Because it means i get to do the thing that is most fun as survivor, be chased by the killer. I hate holding m1 on a gen for 90 seconds and its why i generally don't play survivor. Killers often smartly leave me when they realize i know how to loop, and go after my teammates who go down in 8 seconds (solo queue) so i don't win often either. THAT is what i don't like, but i know it is smart.
The biggest problem with tunneling is 2-fold.
1) There is a varying definition of what tunneling actually is.
2) The reason "real" tunneling works, is because survivors let it work.
So firstly, What is tunneling? Here are a few questions i have?
- Is it tunneling if the killer waits nearby the hook, waits for the survivor to get unhooked, and then immediately starts going after them?
- Probably
- Is it tunneling if the killer is chasing another survivor, and they run to the hook, then unhook the survivor in the killers face get downed, and then the killer goes after the unhooked survivor?
- Maybe, but in that scenario it is the teammates fault. And "tunneling" there would be smart.
- Is it tunneling if the survivor that was just unhooked runs to the killer to bodyblock a teammate and then the killer turns to focus on the unhooked survivor?
- I don't think so, at the point you brought it on yourself, but many people would still say that is tunneling
- Is it tunneling if you hook a survivor, then chase another survivor, then hook them before the other survivor gets unhooked. Then you run to the first hooked survivor and run into them?
- I don't think so, at that point you already hooked someone else, it just feels like they got tunneled from their perspective.
- Is it tunneling if the killer is trying to do a 12 hook game, and you just got hooked the first time, but the rest of your team is on death hook, so the killer tunnels you off the hook so they don't kill one of your teammates?
- Many survivors would say this is tunneling, and many accuse me of it, but like, i'm doing it intentionally to play nice and that is just how it happened.
- Is it tunneling if, you hook a survivor, and you start chasing another survivor, but THAT survivor starts running to the fun bus (one of the strongest structures in the game), then the survivor you just hooked, gets unhooked before your terror radius even leaves the area. The person who unhooked them books it, and the unhooked survivor hides in a corner in the deadzone?
- This kind of thing happens to me a lot, i actively don't chase survivors around strong structures if i don't think it is a good idea and often times the best person to go after is the injured person. This is the type of "tunneling" that survivors do to themselves.
- Is it tunneling if you accidentally run into the survivor who was just unhooked without actually trying?
- Survivors underestimate how often this happens.
- Is it tunneling if, you hook a survivor, patrol every gen, and none of them are being worked on, and you find nobody else. During which time the survivor was unhooked, and then you head back, but the only one you can find is them?
- You aren't giving me any other targets to go after so, what am i supposed to do?
Several of these are "tunneling" in the literal sense, but survivors did it to themselves. Often times i don't think they realize that.
6 - Is it tunneling if the killer waits nearby the hook, waits for the survivor to get unhooked, and then immediately starts going after them?
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Yh issue is there is no way to add a mechanic to stop tunneling in some situations but not others. It'll always be a bit of an issue
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This isn't a MOBA, it isn't a team-based shooter; it's an asymmetric survival horror game. If you try to balance an asymmetrical game with a similar mindset to balancing a team-based shooter, you get more imbalance. A ludicrously effective anti-camp system is fine in a team-based game like CS because it affects both teams equally. A ludicrously effective anti-tunnel system in DBD is just a massive, uncounterable boost to one side. Your method of fixing tunnelling would essentially make every game a 12-hook game -- and may even promote more camping -- which isn't going to really be feasible for a lot of the Killer pool.
Your example with Bubba highlights more of an issue with Bubba himself than it does anything else. And, if the Bubba is face-camping, then he's not tunnelling - by definition. Face-camping is already going to be massively nerfed in a future patch, which is good, but also not what I was talking about. No, the Watership Down meta didn't form because Bubba so terrorised the entire Survivor community. It formed because not being caught is surprisingly conducive to escaping the trial quickly, regardless of the Killer. It doesn't, however, deal with getting caught.
In order for anti-tunnelling perks to work, first people need to bring them. One alone won't do it, just like one regression perk for Killers usually isn't enough. Perks don't tend to be so powerful these days that one solves all your problems. Fair enough about the Spine Chill thing, but it doesn't change the fact that a significant number of people want to have their cake and eat it. You can't have Sprint Burst, Adrenaline, Prove Thy Self and Resilience and be adequately defended against tunnelling.
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Lets rephrase the question.
Is it fair to limit who the killer can choose to chase?
The chase is the same whether you've been hooked before or not, just the stakes are higher because you are closer to death.
It often makes sense to chase the survivor closest to death.
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The MOBA/Shooter was simply examples of the known problem across games, and their particular implementations at fixing said problem. Learning of the problem and analyzing solutions allows for finding out an effective solution for your particular problem. Also I didn't offer a 'ludicrously effective anti-tunnel system', I offered a fair approach. The Killer out and about on the map is unaffected, so only the turbo tunneler or camper would be hurt by this 10s 'invis'. Survivors have to group up to heal, so maybe run A Nurse's Calling or Deathbound, or if they group on gens, Discordance. Then after the hook on the rescuer a BBQ could show you the aura of all/most players, and allow you to seek out the person on hook prior. If the Killer hooked this new Survivor before 10s after unhook even ended, I think the Killer didn't need any more help in killing the Survs. Working towards a 12 hook game ensures unskilled Killers get equivalent results, and get matched with equally unskilled Survivors. Hens showcased that Skilled M1 Killers can get more than a 90% winrate without even using power while intentionally not camping/tunneling/slugging.
It isn't a problem exclusive to Bubba, as other Instadown Killers (Billy/Ghosty/Myers/Iri Photo card Trickster/etc.) and permanently injured Killers (Legion/Plague/Engineer's Fang Pinhead/etc.) can equally benefit from facecamping. The issue is core to the game, not a one-off problem for a singular Killer. While the facecamping issue will eventually be resolved, that doesn't help the here and now, and it also doesn't help proxy camping the only entrance at a chokepoint like RPD, H-shaped maps, and more. To be fair the proxy camping is more a map design flaw than a core gameplay loop flaw. Also a Bubba can screw up a facecamp and still hard tunnel off-hook, so they aren't mutually exclusive unless you want to consider each millisecond instead of each match. They are often linked, as most tunneling includes some level of camping.
In order for gen-regression perks to work, you simply need to bring the newly nerfed Jolt with 2% regression in a 24m radius only when a Survivor goes down from a Deep-Wound timer bleedout /s. It doesn't matter if people bring something if it is unplayably bad. Do people want to have everything, yes, both sides bring 4 chase or 4 gen slowdown perks then complain about the lack of the variety in their kit. The problem is anti-tunnel is so ineffective, and fails to stack effectively.
Anti-tunnel needs to be more effective than general chase perks, so that people won't just bring a general chase perk instead. If I got 11s from DS when tunneled, or 15s from my Resilience from a barely squeezed out extra vault, Resilience is strictly superior. If OTR could work with the basekit BT being procced, it would be fine. If DS could actually make a Killer think twice about picking up, it would be fine. Sadly neither of those cases are true.
I just hatch escaped from a Wesker match on RPD where he had the full on facecamp build (Corrupt, Deadlock, No Way Out, Pain Res surprisingly, and the tunnel infection add-on.) and hard tunneled off hook. That wasn't a playable match, and I would have died if I didn't get lucky with the Hatch spawn. I then got a Knight match where the Killer tried to camp and tunnel, but he brought a rounded build, seemed to not understand the guard hook mechanics, and 3 people gate escaped as a result.
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Consider this though, its not comparable the way you are using the point either.
Survivor is an elimination game, killer is not.
In an elimination game you will sometimes get eliminated early, its part of the game. You didn't get prevented from playing the game rather you failed to play well enough to be able to continue and were eliminated.
You have all the tools you need to avoid being eliminated early.
The threat of elimination is what makes DBD exciting to play and the day you can just respawn as survivor to stay in game is the day DBD becomes a bland farm fest and nothing more.
You should go into a game of DBD with the mindset that you may get targeted and eliminated early, then do what you can to avoid that... that's DBD, that's what you are signing up for when you hit the queue button and its great because of it.
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Your fair approach, in all fairness, was spooky Casper ghost mode. Invisibility and a guaranteed escape doesn't come across as particularly fair. It forces 12-hooks, something most Killers cannot reliably do, something the game isn't balanced around, something it may not even be possible to balance around. Also, congratulations, you found a player with, what, 7-8k hours of playtime. All that video proves is that Hens is ridiculously good at the game and performs at a level well above what 99% of players will ever achieve. Massive props to Hens, but that video is not something that should be waved around as evidence that 12-hook balancing is possible. You want unskilled Killers to be matched with equally unskilled Survivors, but that will never happen while one side is constantly having its hand held.
Killers should choose appropriate perks, is what I'm getting from you. People grouped on gens, Distortion. People healing, Nurse's Calling, etc. Maybe I'm putting words in your mouth, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm hearing "adaptation." That's exactly my point. A Survivor that wants to be tunnelled less would adapt their perks based upon the risk they are willing to take. DS is 11 seconds in your example, but Resilience is only 15 seconds in an ideal scenario where you make that split-second vault. That is the cost, that is the risk and that is the reward. Risk it for a biscuit or take a guaranteed 11 seconds. People choose to forgo Flashlights in favour of Toolboxes, people choose to forgo anti-tunnelling perks in favour of chase perks and progression perks. If people choose to forgo consistent defensive options in favour of higher rewards, bloody good for them - but those rewards have risks.
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Just add anticamping system that it was told few months ago and antitunelling as well
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It wouldn't stop the current dominant strategy of what I call 'toggle-tunneling', or Hooking Surv A/B/A/B/A/B/C/D. It would only stop the worst extremes of tunneling immediately off hook or A/A/A/B/C/D.
12 hooks is something most Killers can reasonably do, if they have the skill. It should be aspirational to improve and get better. Even then it is only skill relative to your opposition. So how exactly is it difficult to down a baby Feng in chase?
You say hand-holding relative to Survivors, as if Killers didn't have their hand held far more with 10% kick and hit CD becoming basekit, 5s off of each upper Bloodlust tier, and 10s per gen (increasing % gen regression at the same time). Killer keeps getting easier over time, thus weaker Killers think they are good when they aren't. The weaker Killers get to an MMR they don't belong in, then have to resort to camping/tunneling to win more matches. Since the design flaw exists, the weaker Killers are stuck in that negative feedback loop being 'forced' to tunnel in order to win matches that they aren't supposed to otherwise with skill against skill. Most of my matches are too easy now, and I intentionally go for 12 hooks to counterbalance that.
Killers and Survivors should choose appropriate perks. I don't think 4 gen slowdown should ever be more effective than Intel/Lethality/Slowdown/Flex. Similarly for Survivor with 4 of one category compared to Chase/Altruistic/Anti-Extreme/Flex. The problem is if over the course of the match, DS only gave 11s of value when it actually worked, why would I ever use that when Botany gives me 5.33s per heal, or Resilience could give me an extra vault per chase? Most times Survivor is likely to heal at least once or twice a match, and take numerous vaults, yet the hyper-specific no CA anti-tunnel doesn't give enough value to outpace the other choices.
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Is that really comparable? A regressing gen can go back to zero, taking all progress with it. Survivors wont get a hookstate back, so the killer progress is permanent. For survivors its only with finished gens.
If you want compare the unfinished gen, then you should compare it to hit and run, because a survvior can completly heal from that.
But noone is expecting killers to do that, are they?
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Yeah, except Killers have a choice to not camp or turn back around the instant they hear the unhook, despite efficiency. Survivors do not have that freedom when working on gens.
Killers can still win by spreading hooks, Survivors can't work on a gen for 30% progress and go to the next one and repeat the process til 5 gens are done unless they want to lose. You simply stay on one gen as long as you can until it's done and then move to the next.
So no, your "tunneling gens" argument holds no water and if people really believe that it does, they are deluding themselves to validate their strategy. Tunnel all you want, but Killers comparing simply doing gens efficiently to tunneling to kill efficiently is reaching.
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Unhealthy yes.
Unfair no.
As long as both sides can do it, it will be fair for both sides.
If you want to stop killers from focusing quick kills you also need to do something about survivors focusing quick gens.
Both are unhealthy, but neither are unfair due to the other also existing.
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What you call 'toggle-tunnelling' isn't tunnelling. You took something you're not fond of and called it 'also-tunnelling' to make it sound bad. A lot of things in this game are possible if you're skilled enough, but that isn't an argument - it's basically a roundabout way of saying git gud. It doesn't really contribute much, and certainly doesn't take into account the overall average skill of people playing this game. 80-second gens were demonstrably too low, for a start. And Bloodlust? Really? BL is a band-aid fix for poor map design. It's not hand-holding to give Killers the possibility of catching a Survivor if they play well. Without it, that possibility would not even exist in the majority of chases.
But I see what's happening now, you're confusing actual attempts at balancing with hand-holding. What Killers mostly want is balanced perks and reasonable gen time, what Survivors seem to want is hard restrictions on basic mechanics and to lobotomise their opposition's autonomy. We were having a nice little conversation, but I'll be honest: my attention span went for a little walk the moment you pulled the, "I'm so good that my matches are super easy and I have to handicap myself" shtick. Nothing good ever comes from a conversation after someone's basically appealed to their own authority to strengthen their argument, so we'll leave it there I think.
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"Survivors can't work on a gen for 30% progress and go to the next one and repeat the process til 5 gens are done unless they want to lose. You simply stay on one gen as long as you can until it's done and then move to the next."
Replace that with killers and kills and you get the same conclusion.
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Yes.
A gen cant be regressed once its complete, the same way a chase time can't be extended once the survivor is hooked/dead. Both make the "checkpoint" of progression take longer.
It's a little different for both sides in the details since its an asym game, but both are easily comparable as they have equivalents on either side.
But trying to compare a locked in completion amount (hook state) to an incomplete one (an unfinished gen) is not the way to do it.
A hook state or kill is a completed gen. Which the killer also can't do anything about.
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You forgot to add the /s.
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first , is not mechanic , stop calling it like that
"Killer players is just destroying fun for survivor player and not letting them play the game."
and what about survivors when they smash gens and your first chase is just u losing 2 to 3 gens in 2 minutes for free at the start of the match if your first chase takes more than 30 seconds due to busted RNG / perks / map design / using a low tier killer ,
can u blame the killer for tunneling on that case?. also to this day people still call tunneler a killer when they bodyblock the killer with their basekit BT on purpose to protect someone and if you manage to down them , they just get salty and call you tunneler.
about rewarding the killer and stuff , yes sounds good , but we are talking about BHVR , they literally are adding a anti-camp mechanic first even when things like reassurance exist for survivors , meanwhile killer are dealing with not early game mechanic basekit , not being able to fully enjoy playing non-meta killers due to how weak they are cough cough trapper, etc.
Im not against the anti-camp mechanic , is something that i also wanted for a long time , but ignoring and leaving maps in a terrible state while bad survivors are getting basekits mechanics to cheese like BT basekit where people can abuse that a lot of Swf and while using such things like MFT and now getting the anti-camp feature that for what i heared it sounds like its gonna be really easy to abuse on some maps since it only deactives at the end of the game.
but I guess you can send your suggestions to BHVR so they can actually somehow reward killers playing fair
I personally enjoy going for max hooks 1 by 1 , but if the match doesnt allow me , i will not hesitate into tunneling someone quickly.
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'Toggle-tunneling' most certainly is tunneling if the Surv never had a chance to touch a gen, and still had DS/OTR available without intentionally banking it. The Survivor had no chance to complete a Conspicuous Action post-hook. That's tunneling by the games perk logic, and by anyone who can be in that position. Even then, that doesn't stop a Killer from downing Surv B across the map while Surv A is still on hook, then walking back and waiting at Surv A's hook for them to be unhooked and target them again. Many Killers like Onryo/Demo/Freddy can just TP back and instantly tunnel someone post-hook anyways.
I disagree with 80s gens being too low. I was able to win consistently with Clown of all Killers, but to be fair I was using the old Pop/Tinker wombo combo. You say people can't use the "I'm so good" argument, while you are using the "bad Killers are too bad without camp/tunnel" mirror argument yourself. Besides, there is a world of difference of appeal to one's own authority, and having one's experience. You can't know other people's position or experience without talking to them. I never claimed to have any authority, I merely know my own experience. I was bad, and now I think I'm less bad. I improved over time and I know other people can do the same. We don't remove Legion's Deep Wound because some Survivors don't understand the mend mechanic and fall into the Dying state. We expect people to learn the mechanics and play with them in mind.
As far as 'Bloodlust is a band-aid fix for poor map design', that is my exact argument for anti-tunnel perks. Anti-tunnel perks are a band-aid fix for poor gameplay design. Survivors just don't have a basekit version that doesn't deny other things. Bamboozle doesn't disable breaking pallets, so why does OTR not work with basekit BT?
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That's quite a book, but overall I agree. People tend to use that basekit BT to bodyblock, and then killers are left with the same thought they had BEFORE basekit BT. "Why should I chase the healthy survivor who is now even FURTHER away from me rather than the injured survivor." People also have a tendency of going out of their way to FIND the killer to get value out of their perks like OTR.
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Could always place a dark halo around hooked survivors.
Lore wise it makes sense as the entity wants to absorb the survivors and doesn't want the killer near to interfere with that absorbing.
Inside the halo, no actions can take place (healing, attacking, anything) except for un-hooking.
Have the halo exist for a few seconds after the un-hook and camping and tunneling are slowed dramatically.
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no, but there's nothing that can be done
Easier Said
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I would think full on "tunneling gens" would be detrimental to the surv team, no? Like "I'm gonna do these gens while my team is all dying" wouldn't be particularly effective. Though some people actually operate that way, to be sure, and I hate teammates that do that.
Early in games, survs don't really have other objectives. Now sometimes gens go at a rate where the killer can't manage it for reasons largely beyond their control (map balance, garbage RNG), but that is usually a game design issue.
As for the topic, "fair" is a subjective term, and as far as the game goes, it doesn't violate the rules of the game, even if it does violate the spirit of the game.
But man, is tunneling lame. To me, it says one (or or all) of three things about the player:
- They care waaay too much about "winning" in a game where competition was never really supposed to be the point
- That they don't feel they are good enough to win any other way, and probably really suck at meta gameplay
- The have absolutely no regard for the other players
To be clear, I always define tunneling as tunneling from the beginning of the game, as a general strategy to be used in every match.
Situational tunneling late in games that are slipping away is generally kosher in my book, and should be expected (like camping after the gens are all done).
What should not be expected is that the first time the killer finds you your game is essentially over.
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If you feel that way, go ahead hahaha saludos ;)
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I agree that tunneling isn't unfair. It's a perfectly valid strategy, and yeah it sucks to be on the receiving end but it is what it is. That said...
Generators are not sentient, and don't have feelings. In no way is tunneling comparable to survivors doing a generator at 90% instead of starting a fresh one. Tunneling someone off hook ruins their experience, and sucks the fun out of the game for that player.
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Is it fun? Hell No
Is it fair? Absolutely
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Every survivor is 100% always a target and it's on the individual to avoid the killer's attention as much as possible.
If anyone wants to engage the killer because chase is more "fun", they shouldn't expect any leeway if failing to escape that chase is the result. Failure to win a chase only makes you the weak link.
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If their goal is to retain customers, and I know quite a lot of them that quit, got burnt out fast due to tunneling.
So if they want to keep those customers and make money then maybe consider fixing it.
It's not my money so it's no skin off my back, but everything comes down to that to companies, money. Every single friend I've tried to bring into the game takes off and doesn't come back because of it.
People I've met along the way are all gone because they got tired of their matches being so short. :(
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Anyone that still defends tunneling is either misguided or just being edgy.
"Its unfun" is a perfectly good reason to remove tunneling imo, my friends are all also getting burnt out because of the constant tunneling and camping too. Its gotten to the point where they beg me to get tunneled instead so they can actually play the game since they're not good enough to stay off the hook for longer than 10 seconds.
In essence it is a skill issue, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't get changed, any strategy that prevents someone from playing should be either super hard to pull off or super uncommon/reserved for competitive games.
The fact that any noob can pick up Wesker and successfully tunnel every game is a problem. That being said, killers do need to be rewarded or buffed elsewhere, it just sucks that their meta playstyles are both unhealthy.
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So do people not like interacting with the killer or what's up?
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I think that rather than outright removing the playstyle, it would be better to disincentivise it as much as possible.
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Well I don't think it'd be possible to truly remove it. 😜
Its tricky though because you want to design it in a way where it's impossible to weaponize against the killer.
One idea I was toying around with in my head was cranking up the basekit BT to 30 seconds of 15% haste, vault-speed, and endurance, as well as show the auras of pallets and vaults like WoO. But have it disable in EGC and remove collision from the survivor.
The idea is to make the survivor so cumbersome to chase that it's a guaranteed loss even against less experienced players. But there is no way for it to prevent the killer from applying pressure to other survivors.
The only issue is that this would severely affect competitive play since they play for hookstates, but they can adapt tbh.
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The more time passes, the more I feel like it's less about what I can't do, but what I can do as a Killer. And the list of things I'm able to do is ever reducing.
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