How you can buff m1 killers without buffing m2 killers?
M1 killers are usually weak, that's true. But buffing them is kinda hard. Because usually all killers will get value from it.
And there is some m1 killers with strong powers as well. Spirit, Hag, Pinhead first comes to mind. These killers are getting downs with m1 , so buffing m1 killers will make them buffed as well.
So my question is how we can buff m1 killers in general without buffing strong killers.
Comments
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Make them 2-3% faster by default
It really wouldn't hurt to take someone like Trapper, Singularity, Ghostface, etc and make them 117% instead of 115%.
It's small, but any small boost can make a big difference.
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M1 killers require good strategy and skill in the meantime don’t guarantee 4k. Consider it hard mode.
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Yet people complain that MFT adding 3% to survivors only while theyre injured is too much...?
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Exactly! I don't need buffs, I need more practice.
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A bit of Coupe de Grace or lets say 5-10% Basekit Superior Anatomy. M2-Killers like Blight, Demo, Nemesis, Nurse, Billy, Bubba (only for Bamboozle), Xenomorph etc. usually dont vault.
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I'd say some form of basekit mobility would be nice, but is dropped if you use power. I've previously recommended a Devour Hope styled speed boost immediately after hook that drops after power/entering chase. Alternatively maybe a pac-man styled exit the map and enter it from the opposite side, or teleport from 1 exit gate to the other before endgame. If they did a map teleport then it would need a delay and sound cue that it is being done, that's why I think a post-hook haste would be easier to implement.
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Improve their powers, not baseline actions.
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We do not need another 6.1.0. That would cause more problems than it would solve. What we need however is killer specific buffs.
Clown could use 1 more bottle by default.
Pig's stealth could be a bit faster and the roar of her ambush could be delayed by a bit.
Trapper needs maps with thick grass.
Doctor could use the brown range addon as base kit.
Wraith's lunge could use a slight buff.
Myers needs a rework. There are too many things wrong with his kit to fix them all with just a buff.
Demogorgon needs an addon pass.
As does Billy. And Pyramid Head.
And Freddy needs a gun. And an addon pass. And a new base kit.
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By making use of the myriad perks or effects that only work on Basic attacks.
Buffing those perks and adding new ones, meta ones at that.
Introducing survivors perks that proc when hit by Special attacks.
Any of the above that influence movement speed will have a good effect. For example if the new Rapid Brutality perk was made more effective, extending it's duration or removing the bloodlust penalty.
On the extreme end, you could nerf Nurse and Blight a little more by making their power go on cooldown whenever stunned, to give survivors more effective counterplay.
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I agree with you killer specific ones are the way to go
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I agree with most but i want to change or add something.
Clown's problem won't be fixed with that. His bottles are enough already, even default is fine. His problem is map pressure/mobility.
Pig yes, she would feel much better.
Trapper need to start with his all traps or at least let him reload from lockers.
Doctor i agree.
Wraith i agree.
Myers i def agree. And his mori add-ons need to be reworked. They are very unhealthy.
Demo add-ons are not that bad but his weak add-ons should be buffed. But instead of this, BHVR is nerfing his best add-on for no reason.
Billy and PH agree. I'd add Nemmy too here.
Freddy need another rework but i doubt devs will do this. At least add dream pallets to his base-kit. So he can use both of his powers. And ofcourse add-ons pass as well.
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making maps playable for them , and nerfing the top tier killers to a more "balanced" state in order to prevent them for overperforming on the balanced maps.
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I don't think you can do sweeping base kit buffs for these killers. I think the only way is to rework/buff the weaker m1 killers but it has been shown and said by the devs this isn't a priority. Unless the data tells them otherwise they are happy with where the killers are as a whole. For example, they think Trapper is fine where he is right now and have no plans to ever buff him or rework him since they feel that will only hurt newer players. They think Trapper is a stepping stone or entry point for the game and don't want to change that. I feel in their minds newer players just move on from Trapper after they played a decent amount of hours and play other killers. Either way, I think the only way to bring these lower killers up is to do specific buffs to each one of them than sweeping base kit buffs.
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Clown would be better with 1 more bottle because it would allow him to use yellow bottles for mobility more often. But as it is now you can maybe throw 1 yellow bottle because you will need 2-3 bottles for the chase. It wouldn't fix his issues completely but it would help a little.
Trapper still wouldn't perform much better, if he could reload at lockers. You see his traps from miles away and that pretty much counters him completely.
Myers should keep his Tombstone Addon to some capacity. There is an achievement associated with it after all and it is something that makes him unique. The Tombstone Piece however shouldn't exist.
Demo's stealth addons are useless. Buffing them won't change that. And the addon that reduces his teleport's cooldown isn't much better.
Nemesis I completely forgot about. But you're right. His addons are terrible.
Freddy is pretty much the worst adaptation they've done. You could pass him off as an original character with a new character model and nobody would suspect a thing. His old kit as terrible as it was at least made a bit of sense.
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With more good m1 perks.(jolt,sloopy).
Or buffing each m1 killer individually.
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Yes
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All the weak killers just need some upgrades imo.
Trapper - make traps spawn much closer to the centers of the map, slight speed buff to picking up and setting traps (make brown gloves basekit, slightly nerf setting speed add-ons if necessary) and let traps become camouflaged to each map.
Pig - make ambush... not suck? That's the only thing she really needs, I think.
Clown - uh... I don't know. Give him a machine gun idk.
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In fact both their proposal and MfT are terrible things
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Devil's Advocate here: what if killers lower down the tiers are just harder difficulty killers and therefore it's not so much a change to make them more viable, but instead to reward more BP for lower killers?
It's been some time since we have had some kill rates, so the info I'm using is dated. However, according to what BHVR wanted for average and top 5% killers, the kill rates appeared in line with what they wanted (50-60+ kill rate). This would mean buffs would potentially upset that.
Of course, this is old information and especially with some more recent perks there may be a vast swing for all we know. However, if we got kill rates and again they were in line with 50-60% kill rates, it may argue against any buffs. If the information changes to reflect a more survivor-sided escape rate, then changes certainly could be considered.
Ultimately, I'm of the opinion that if the kill rates are in the right place then there is no need to change it. If there is a significant change, then there may be. I'd be far more in favour of more rewards for lower-performing killers than buffs.
If only Nurse wasn't such a bloody pain in the ass when it came to stats then this would be far easier!
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by not releasing perks that only hurt weaker killers like mft 👍️
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It would be neat to see some perks that:
Give you a benefit if hit by M2 attacks, but a deficit if hit by M1 attacks
or
Buff your killer the more you use M1, but have a downside/buff wipe when using M2
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I think pop goes the weasel could be reworked in a fun way for clown.
He damages the gen and it is locked till the survivors do several skill checks like turning the crank on a jack in the box. Fail a skill check, get hit and take damage.
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Make loops fair. The m2 killers you mentioned don't really care about loops because they just don't loop. Only exception might be pinhead. But at that point individual adjustments could be made. At the highest levels, there are 3 viable killers, nurse, blight, and spirit. And what do they have in common? They don't play the same game as the rest of the killers.
The best thing, is to make every loop fair. The best designed loop in the game? Is the TL wall. After a few seconds, the survivor and killer get a 50/50. If the killer guesses right, they get a hit, if they guess wrong, they waste about 10 seconds of the killer's time, and the killer can try again.
- Why are there so many safe pallets?
- Why do god pallets exist?
- Why are so many loops not mindgameable?
- Why are there so many OP main buildings (garden of joy god window)
- Why are there so many OP single structure loops like cow tree?
- Why does the game allow a jungle gym window to spawn into shack window?
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BHVR is already doing this with the map reworks, where they keep super boosting the number of line of sight breakers, which affect M2 killers more than M1 killers. For example, it's so much easier to dodge a Huntress hatchet, when there are so many line of sight breakers. And it's more difficult to land Blight's M2 when anti-Blight stuff is added all over the new maps. It's more difficult for Spirit to make long distance chases when sound occlusion keeps happening because of the super boosted line of sight breakers.
BHVR has been nerfing killers, it's just not announced as nerfs.
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Movement speed increases on survivor are stronger than movement speed increases on killer. Let's look at a hypothetical scenario. where the survivor moves 3% faster than base, and one where the killer moves 3% faster than base, and one at base, and compare them.
Assuming a healthy survivor, a 4.6 killer, running in an infinite straight line, and a chase that starts at 16 meters. For context, load up a game as trapper, lunge 3 times, that is 18.6 meters. So 16 meters is actually a bit less than that. You'll realize just how close 16 meters is. How long will it take for the killer to down this healthy survivor in all 3 scenarios?
Basekit: 20.8 seconds for first hit + 18.2 seconds for second hit = 39 seconds
3% faster survivor: 27.9 seconds for first hit + 24.2 seconds for the second hit = ~52 seconds
3% faster killer: 16.9 seconds for first hit + 14.8 seconds for the second hit = ~32 seconds
So a killer moving 3% faster, will end the chase ~7 seconds sooner than base kit. Whereas the survivor moving faster, will actually make the chase last 13 seconds longer than basekit. This is because the differences in movement speed between survivor and killer are actually more important than the absolute movement speed. Additionally, it has to do with how lunges work. All of this in spite of the fact that the 3% movement speed increase gives more absolute movement speed to the killer, because you are doing 4.6 * 1.03 instead of 4 * 1.03. Meaning the survivor gains 0.12 m/s of speed, whereas the killer is actually gaining 0.138 m/s of speed.
Lastly, this is in an infinite straight line and does not represent reality. In reality, a killer's hitbox is larger, and survivors are typically looping, not running in a straight line. Because of the larger hitbox of a killer, they need to travel a larger distance around a loop than a survivor does.
This image is not to scale, but demonstrates the point:
If the black circle is a rock, and the blue circle is a survivor, and the red is the killer. You'll see the difference there. The survivor's hitbox being smaller means they have to travel less distance around the rock in order to make a full loop around it than the killer does. So increasing the survivors movement speed actually compounds this difference even more.
Again, not to scale, but lets say that the circumference of the rock is 10 meters. The survivor can loop around it as close as 12 meters. But the killer has to do it at 14 meters. This means that it'll take the survivor 2.5 seconds to do a full loop, but it takes the killer, moving .6 meters FASTER than the survivor, 3 seconds to do the loop. Now if you make the survivor move 3% faster, they can suddenly do that loop in 2.4 seconds. Not much of a difference at this small scale, but you just increased the differences in their time by a full 20% from just increasing the movement speed by 3%.
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Slight movement buff would be fine like 1-2% and bigger vuff like 10% after you hook someone. Would encourage chasing more.
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This is a really complicated thing and the proposed answers are usually grossly oversimplified.
The relative difference in strength between an M1 killer and higher tier killers doesn't really come into play until survivors actually understand pathing, spacing, and efficiency. This takes a long time to develop. Hundreds of hours. It does not matter what killer you play for the first 500-1000 hours of Dead by Daylight. You aren't going to use any power effectively and the survivors aren't going to run any tile effectively. Everyone's mechanics suck on both sides.
That's the majority of MMR. They have shown us kill rates over the years that have M1 killers towards the top of the kill rate leaderboards across all MMRs. Being on an M1 doesn't matter when everyone is bad.
It can make a huge difference when players are more optimal in their pathing and efficient on generators. Killers with fewer chase tools and less mobility are going to struggle to down players with thousands of hours on many maps. But buffing those killers to contend at higher skill brackets also buffs them in lower skill brackets. Players who make zero distance against 115 killers in that 100 hour range now have an even worse massacre on their hands.
You'd be tempted to say maps, but nerfing maps to accommodate M1 killers means less safety against M2 killers who aren't struggling to begin with.
Which all begs the question: are M1 killers really having a hard enough time across the board to necessitate sweeping changes? I'm not saying there isn't a strength difference. But it's not the difference between a 4k and 0k if someone is playing well. Is the difference of a single kill at certain MMR brackets enough to warrant changes?
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it is not that they're stronger. it is that they have different impact on gameplay. the survivor is always ahead so haste effects for survivor slow-killer catch up but killer catch-up is like a ratio of arbitrary time. m/s for survivor makes loops safer because artificial race track is bigger. it gives illusion that loop is bigger to the killer then it is.
m/s survivor -> makes loops bigger
m/s for killer -> makes killer rotate looper's quicker to get to the check-point of the loop to attempt to mindgame the pallet slide/window vault.
m/s for killer does reduce size of loops but it is arbitrary small amount because survivor can vault pallets and gain back distance. it is such small amount that it is almost unnoticeable in many loops. you need a large amount of haste like 15% for the effect to be relevant in looping for killer. even then, lots of loops are still infinities if the survivor vaults at the correct time regardless of haste.
one thing i will say is that your circles are greatly exaggerated. survivor can cut-corners better than killer due to smaller hitboxs but the difference m/s for cutting a corner is very small. I am not sure how small. I would guess something like 0.25-0.5 total distance gain. most loops in dbd are straight-line rounded but have jagged edges. depending how many jagged edges a loop has, the total m/s difference is like less than 0.1 m/s. this is because turning of the corner is less 1 second. the amount of time it takes you to turn a corner in not big. your only faster than killer for that split 1 second of rotating corner. after that, you have to remember that not all survivor will perfectly lean on edge of wall of every loop. there is always minor error in holding the sides. there can also be very minor error on killer for holding the sides. The errors are more major on survivor/killer on lower mmr levels of play but at that point, both sides are playing poorly so they almost cancel each other out.
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In term of OP post. you can buff killer powers to make them stronger at their gimmick like @C3Tooth suggestion. I like this idea because it makes killer more interesting to play against as survivor and killer can use their power in creative ways.
the other suggestion that bvhr sometimes get is making maps more fairer by weakening loops. I would this is ok but a lot of work because there is a lot of maps. I would say easier change is coup the grace base-kit and bigger lunge speed to accommodate longer lunge so that looping pallets and windows takes more finesses to loop. I don't know, maybe it would make killer too oppressive for weaker players similar to improvement to killer powers.
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I think they should have those event powers we had recently. Remember the power where you could break pallets instantly but it had like some kind of cool down? I really enjoyed that event
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I think clown yellow gas shouldn't speed up survivors also too.
Pig I don't care didn't buy.
Trappers needs all his traps and you shouldn't be able to just follow him and disarm all his traps so easily.
Wraith needs his real lunge back and faster reappearance.
Myers is fine, especially on indoor maps
Didn't buy demo
Give Billy his old addon's but charge time don't stack.
Pyramid Head needs that buff to his power they backed off and addon pass.
Freddy Down bad
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The plan shouldn't be a bandaid across the board buff.
M1 killers are generally weaker, but the reasons why each one is weak vary greatly. The solution is to strengthen the killers that need it in ways that make sense for that killer specifically. Actually addressing the specific problem areas of weak killers makes more sense and doesn't produce a need to worry about whether m2 killers get stronger.
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Big no to this. M1 killers should be buffed but not with this.
This power was so busted.
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