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Can we admit pallets are a problem?
Comments
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erm… i’m iffy about this kind of opinion
pallets in themself arent a problem… it’s just the maps. there’s a lot of maps that have too many god pallets or too many safe pallets (the gideon), and the loops in some can be excruciating due to the amount of windows (cough GARDEN OF HELL) or the length of an obstacle. some maps just need some retuning with the pallet locations, and it should be good to go.
garden of hell needs a complete rework though it is WAY too strong and it’s just so… bleh
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As others have said, there was a number of plays that could have been done differently. I thought you way over respected the pallets and this led to you going wide on corners and you defaulted to breaking some you didn't need to.
There were also a couple of points were if things had been slightly more in your favor you would have gotten a down and really changed the game. That's how DbD works, sometimes you're just a little bit behind and it looks like a blow out.
How many months have we been doing these questions?
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There should be a strength rate for each title (12 for strong and 8 for weak one may be), and a map has 100 strength or something like that.
There are a few double titles next to each other, sometimes its double gyms which too strong, sometimes its double TL its too weak. Its more like not restrict in title rate is the problem.
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SoloQ survivors would never win if there was not few good map for them with some good pallets.
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I am sorry to say it like this, but this match was prime example of skill issue.
You play almost as if you subjected yourself to no M2 challenge. Do you even know that you are faster when using chainsaw (especially with beastmarks or scratcher knives)? Linked to this - JOLT should never be part of bubba's build, because you should "never" get M1 down. Use bamboozle instead.
And mindgame tiles a little - like when survivor vaults a window next to you and goes at one direction - look as if you went in that direction but vault that window instead - by doing this in 90% of cases survivor will run next to you and you will get at least M1 in 50% of cases for a VERY simple mindgame.
This does not even consider "advanced" things like hiding your red light or really advanced things like chainsaw moonwalking. There are tons of things you could have done better on top of things other people already mentioned. The way you played survivors (especially Nick) didn't even had to use pallets on a map that does not have that many of them anyway - in your case less respecting would be VERY beneficial, because occasional stun at the correct means that part of the map can be a lot weaker (filler pallets between distant tiles) once you destroy the pallet - so even if you lost that specific chase, the next time you chase someone in that spot you just will get down (provided you create deadzones while thinking about it - creating deadzone in a corner where there's finished/almost finished gen makes 0 sense. Not hurling survivors toward deadzones by destroying pallets from the side you choose make this point 95% pointless too)...
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basic M1 killers are like 70% of the entire killer roster, so by that measurement, yes pallets are the problem.
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How are survivors suposed to escape a chase, how are they supposed to stun the killer, without reasonable access to pallets?
The problem is that high end players can optimise the crap out of the game and plan their chase path with such precision that they can chain every pallet together without fail. But if you try to prevent this by reducing the number of pallets, the 'bottom' 90% of survivors won't stand a chance.
This is party why Windows of Opportunity is so widely used. Not only does it offer help to learning survivors, but it offers the ability to greatly optimise chases for the highest skilled survivors too.
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I would seriously argue 70% of killers are M1 killers. But even if we admit that - most of the killers have some way to combat it, because they have some ability that helps them with it (dredge's remnant, bubba's chainsaw against pallets, trapper's/hag's traps, Wraith's uncloak speed bonus, doctor's shocks, etc).
If you know how to play them, you can have a lot of success. Hack there was a statement by True Talent, that without camping/tunneling M1 killers stand no chance and at best can win 75% of games (and even that number was optimistic) - so Hens being on the other side created a challenge where best streamers were using trapper without single trap, no addon, no camping, no tunneling and no (excessive) slugging - and on public matches with their MMR they were still able to win more then 90% of matches in current DBD. This just shows that considering pub matches - it's all about skill and you can win vast majority of your games (provided you play killer or SWF - this does not apply to soloQ).
See:
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Dawg I have 700+ hrs on this game with 8 killer completely maxed out//prestige. I have the “experience”
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700 hours means not a total beginner in this game - no matter how strange that sounds. Even 10k hours players are still learning a few tidbits in this game. 700 hours really isn't a lot
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I actually completely agree that there are too many pallets. Take Large maps for example. Killer takes a chase on somewhere like Thompson House. Survivors have split up and are working on 3 gens. Survivor in chase leads you to corner where they have jungle jim, bales with pallet, you finally get close enough to hit them and they then get faster because of MFT, damage speed burst etc. and run straight to another pallet. You either break chase and run all over the map looking for other survivors just to have it repeat and then lose 3 gens easily, or you stay in chase maybe get a hook after meeting half a dozen pallets, windows and potentially the house and you lose 3-4 gens.
In response to this I would say the game should be balanced around gameplay, not the minority of killers such as Nurse, they should then be balanced to match the game not the other way around. As for pre drop killers you have to use the pallets differently and having less would make it a choice rather than a blind drop and win your chase. The Game should ba balanced around the majority and the minority gets bought into line. 90% of arguments I see from survivors are based on "What about Nurse, Blight or Hillbilly" They should be bought into line - the game shouldn't be based on them. If you balance around the 1% then the 99 percent gets left behind.
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And you're not zoning survivors at all or pathing optimally at most tiles. There are tons of mistakes here, and that's ok. 700 hours is still relatively inexperienced compared to many. That experience range is probably the hardest for killers.
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Suffocation Pit and ARP I can definitely understand. Those maps are just badly designed, and can sometimes spawn too few pallets. Though to be fair, Suffocation Pit can often also spawn nasty setups in the middle. Definitely not a killer sided map in my opinion.
Wrecker's Yard and Wretched Shop I heavily disagree with. Especially since their latest update, I haven't seen a problem with the amount of pallets those maps have.
However, I would be more interested in maps that have bad pallets for survivors according to you. Because the only map I can think of that has a majority of rather weak pallets is Dead Dawg Saloon, and even that map still has a good amount of pallets that can be used by good survivors. Most other maps have pretty decent pallets for survivors on average if you ask me.
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I will continue to ask them as long as people who have the answers i suspect continue to contradict themselves. But at this point i don't think you will answer them, so i'll say what i suspect your answers will be (perhaps i'll be wrong)
- Do you think this game is balanced at the highest level play without requiring rules that limit perks, or addons/items or other kinds of point systems, but simply a kills vs escapes standpoint?
- The answer to this one doesn't matter as much, but it sets the framing, usually people answer that it is not, but that it is fixed by those rules i mentioned
- Do you think this game should be balanced around top level players, or average skilled players?
- For some inexplicable reason, this is the only multiplayer game i have ever played where people think the answer is average players
- Do you think nurse needs a nerf?
- Most people say yes to this.
- Do you think 1k win streaks are fine?
- Most people say no to this
- Do you think this game is a "party game"?
- The answer to this is usually dependent on where you ask it, on these forums people usually say yes.
But now we get to the point of this. There is a simple calculation here:
Here are the statistics that were last given to us on kill rates. The devs balance around a 60% kill rate. You can argue it should be 50%, or that its not fair, or w/e. That is an issue you need to take up with the devs. The point is, a 60% kill rate is desirable based on how the game is supposed to be balanced:
If you believe that this game should be balanced around "Average players" and not "top players" then you MUST by definition believe that nurse needs massive buffs. The best part about this, is that this chart actually shows BEFORE nurse was recently nerfed.
Now, most people would agree that nurse is probably a problem. I myself am a nurse main, and thinks that by the end of all this, she needs to be fixed, but personally, i don't think it should happen until she is no longer the only viable killer at top level play.
Occasionally, when i ask this question, someone actually doubles down and thinks nurse is fine because of this, and that nurse probably needs to be made easier to play. I commend those people for consistency, but i obviously heavily disagree.
So, my point in asking you those questions was simple.
- If you believe that this game should be balanced around "average" players, then you MUST by definition think that nurse needs buffs
- If you believe that this game should be balanced around "top" players, then you MUST by definition, think that survivors as a whole need some serious nerfs, or killers as a whole need some serious buffs. Just watch any comp game where the killer isn't nurse blight or spirit, and they don't have a ton of rules and restrictions to balance out the survivors.
And if you try to hold some combination of these beliefs (I.E., you think nurse is fine but survivors need nerfs, or that nurse needs nerfs but we should balance around average players) than you are biased.
0 - Do you think this game is balanced at the highest level play without requiring rules that limit perks, or addons/items or other kinds of point systems, but simply a kills vs escapes standpoint?
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I take most of the “”criticism”” or feedback of my gameplay with a grain of salt. “Use your chainsaw at loops” ok and I’ll either touch the sides of the loop and go into a tantrum or still just get hit with the pallet because we all know just how inconsistent bubbas chainsaw is for pallet drops.
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- I think the game is very unbalanced at high level, but it does not matter. See 2)
- The game should be primarily balanced for average players, but also for top players when possible. Nurse is a good example of that as she was too oppressive when played well or with Starstruck+AA but you'd rarely come across one that actually exploited it. I think she was addressed decently as the addon nerfs will not affect the average player so this is an example of a balance change that correctly takes all levels of plays in consideration. My priority would be to buff solo queue. Survivor should be less team-reliant and solo survivors should have specific buffs (like kindred basekit). Devs should also add more goofy ways to play like Plot twist or things like stabbing grandpa in TCM, to encourage players to sweat less when there is a matchmaking difference and not have the match be a pointless stomp where the result is predetermined within the first 30 sec.
- No for the most part, Nurse could get more tweaks for high-level play but is one of the least problematic killers for the actual playerbase.
- No, the game should have enough randomness to make this kind of streaks impossible.
- DBD is not a party game. But it used to be, and should have remained this way.
I'd also add that I do not trust the official kill rates as they have been collected with a profound lack of knowledge of how statistics work, and are basically meaningless for anyone who knows math. The data that you shared is a prime example of Simpson's paradox. You would like to think that the killrate of each killer shows how powerful they are, but in reality this graph is massively influenced by external factors, in particular 1) which killers come from paid DLCs and 2) which killers are hard to play on console. Notice that the top 5 killers are all paid and the bottom 3 all free, in fact 2 of them are basekit. You can explain almost all the placements with just these 2 factors. As for Nurse, she is both hard to play on console AND one of the few basekit killers. What happens is, people who do not play killer very well have a much higher chance to play Nurse for their challenges rather than Wesker, and so they drag the killrates down. In contrast, someone who plays Freddy will almost certainly be a fan of the character and an experienced killer, so he ends up at 5th top kills.
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Your mistakes went far beyond just not using the chainsaw.
You did not attempt anything in this game. Basically you're mindlessly following the survivor and pressing Space instantly every time they drop a pallet, and hoping the game will reward you for your effort. But that's not how Bubba works.
The worst part is, you could pick a killer like Knight and you could get away with this playstyle. But for some reason you chose to play a hard killer, that you don't know how to play nor want to learn, with bad perks and no add-on, without camping, without tunneling, on one of the worst maps, and you decide to chase the best survivor for half of the match. You realize how badly unbalanced the game would have to be if you could win that match? I mean at least equip the Chillis.
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Agreed, but wreched shop is not a bad map for killers. There are not that many resources there. It's worse for bubba because of size, but it's no garden of joy or disturbed ward...
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“you just followed the survivor and pressed space”
That’s basically the gameplay for every basic M1 killer lmao.
I shouldn’t have to pick another killer to have a fighting chance at winning, that’s the point I was making all along. So no, idc about your examples of “”X”” player running a specific build sweating his ass off to pull a victory.
none of you here are going to convince me that the number of pallets aren’t a problem and that survivors running to safe pallet next to safe pallet pressing R1 is some skilled mindgame when killers have only 2 options.
chase or break chase.
keep chasing the survivor and waste precious time or break chase and waste precious time.
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Behavior needs to stop balancing this game around the 1% top players and around it’s actual player base who are all average, myself included.
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But keep on denying it’s a problem.
Cause once Behavior creates killer bots this game is dead once and for all.
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Points for consistency i guess. I don't trust the data either, but if you believe balance should happen for the "Average" player, this is in fact the "average" player. It might have other factors, but if you think again, the game should be balanced around the "average" player, these are the statistics that matter.
If you want to start qualifying it with "well DLC, or, well console" no, you don't get to do that, because now you aren't looking at the "Average" player anymore.
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That's what BHVR say is a win and it's their game, so yes it is.. 4Ks are meant to be exceptional wins and right now they're not.
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Anyway the amount of palates that are pointless now is ridiculous. Many if them aren't even worth using now because by the time you've completed the animation the killer is on the other side with you. I will happily take a reduced number of palates if they're more useful..
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One survivor drops a lot of pallets, then you chase another one and then they go down because there’s not more resources to waste ):
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What I'm saying is that these stats are mathematically garbage. It is due to methodology, has nothing to do with the content of the stats themselves. Check the wikipedia article on Simpson's paradox, as it will explain it much better than me. Basically, collecting data and making a chart out of it, even though everyone does it, is not statistics, that's disinformation. The correct way to make statistics is to use confounding variables. Needless to say, it's a lot more work, and 95% of statistics don't do that, which means, you can discard 95% of everyday's statistics just by knowing what a cofounding variable is. It may sound like nitpicking, but it's not, statistics are a cruel tool if you don't respect the rules, as shown in the Wikipeda page, there were studies that proved that a drug was effective at curing patients, then another study that proved the same drug was killing them, and both used the same data slightly reorganized.
BHVR's chart doesn't account for two obvious confounding variables which are 1) the platform and 2) the player experience, so it holds exactly 0 value, If BHVR gave me the data behind this chart, I could reorganize it and prove anything with it.
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2k is a draw i think bhvr sees it like that aswell
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BHVR themselves have said a 2k is a draw, 3k and 4k are a win.
They said this in their MMR dev stream iirc.
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Correct.
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They literally do not, a 2k is a draw for mmr purposes.
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Again, i don't disagree with you. But, what i'm saying is, if you start looking at "confounding variables" then you aren't looking at "average" players anymore. Because the "Average" player is probably playing on console. So if you want to balance around "average" players, you can't try to "filter" the data out and account for all of these variables, you just look at what the "average" player is.
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Not to say that you are a bad Killer or anything... but do you have wide or slim deadzones for your Controllers?
That turning to look around looks really crude and does not seem too much control, fixing your deadzones can make things easier on yourself (and easier to the viewer because it really bothered me).
...Also yes I have nothing better to add to the conversation other than this... Yes it bothered me that much since Im a former Console player...
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bro really plays like he's afraid of pallets and says "nerf pallets" lol
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I will continue to ask them as long as people who have the answers i suspect continue to contradict themselves.I've answered them in the past, the problem is that you see a contradiction in other people's thinking when it usually isn't. You might disagree, but that's different.
I'll give it a go again anyway.
Do you think this game is balanced at the highest level play without requiring rules that limit perks, or addons/items or other kinds of point systems, but simply a kills vs escapes standpoint?I think BHVR tries to balance for a wide array of players at the same time, which I generally think is a mistake, but they are the ones with a successful game, not me
Do you think this game should be balanced around top level players, or average skilled players?I think the game should be balanced around soloq. That's different than top level. SWFs aren't inherently higher skilled, they are basically playing a different game than soloq.
I'd put penalties on SWFs (no duplicate perks/items for starters), potentially inform killers they are playing a SWF, and put penalties on lobby dodging. That's not going to happen, but its what I'd do.
Do you think nurse needs a nerf?Again, if it was totally up to me, I'd probably try to rework her just because of how outside the normal game mechanics she is. That's not going to happen.
Overall, she probably doesn't need a nerf. If I really got into it maybe there is a way that could nerf her at the highest levels without hitting lower levels, but I'm not sure that could happen.
If you believe that this game should be balanced around "Average players" and not "top players" then you MUST by definition believe that nurse needs massive buffs.This is were you think people contradict themselves and you're wrong, its not a contradiction. You are conflating multiple concepts into one idea.
The game has some killers that take more time to learn than others. That's not balance, that's a totally different game design issue.
Secondly, you are conflating general statements with absolutes. If someone says 'average' players that doesn't mean High and Low MMR need to be totally ignored when they have unique issues, but that average is just the general place BHVR should give their focus.
You can emphasize the MUST multiple times, but you are incorrect on the contradiction. A person may or may not be influenced with bias, but that's just a guess on their motivations for having a nuanced view.
Do you think this game is a "party game"?Any game can be a party game. Otherwise not sure what you mean.
Do you think 1k win streaks are fine?I'm less bothered by the 1k win streak than all of the streamers who have pulled off 50 win streaks. I think in a game win streaks should be extremely rare, showing someone is of the absolute highest skill level that they really don't even have an MMR match.
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From your video I dont see a problem with pallets. I see a lack of pressure on the survivors from your perks and not using chainsaw almost every time you reach a pallet. Force them to drop them and break them with the saw. Create dead zones, and have the perks to buy you time. Jolt isn't enough by itself especially when you injure someone then switch targets.
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That’s basically the gameplay for every basic M1 killer lmao.Only if you play them that way. Every killer in the game has a power.
I shouldn’t have to pick another killer to have a fighting chance at winning, that’s the point I was making all along. So no, idc about your examples of “”X”” player running a specific build sweating his ass off to pull a victory.People have pointed out ways you could improve the following
Pathing
Effective use of your power
When not to break pallets
Mind games you could try
Chases that you shouldn't have broken off vs others you over committed to
Better perk load outs
As for addons, you don't have to bring them if you don't want to, but you are increasing the difficulty for yourself.
none of you here are going to convince me that the number of pallets aren’t a problem and that survivors running to safe pallet next to safe pallet pressing R1 is some skilled mindgame when killers have only 2 options.Then why post on a public forum? People have been very constructive in their feedback to you, offering multiple avenues for improvement, but if you're just looking for affirmations that's it's the game's problem you're going to need a lot more evidence.
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Cough the game *cough*
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That map is killer sided because of size, indoor map syndrome and serious lack of windows.
I have one of the highest win rate on gideon as multiple distinct killers and still pretty high win rate on others (but sure enough, there are also a few killers that struggle there). Like my Bubba, Legion (with build) and Pinhead loves the map super much (nurse and spirit also feel very good, legion absolutely does not mind too, plague feels good, but say my Oni does not like it). On average killers feel much better on it then my survivors.
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Why are you so afraid of them? is my question. You mindlessly walk around loops without trying to mind game with your saw and then take a massive step back every time you get to the pallet. It's usually better to eat the stun and break the decent pallets than stand still and let them go another lap around it.
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Your gameplay is a problem. Not pallets
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But with legion you injure a couple of guys and still have to deal with the god pallet city, also yes I am well aware that map is insane for nurse. You can say the same for compound 33 blight (seriously you should try him on that map). It is just for killers that have to care about the pallets its just not fun and if they play smart can be hard to win. Shelter woods is a map which especially before its main building felt like it had too few pallets. Some maps like disturbed ward have insane main buildings which you can enter from anywhere so pallet count not that big of a deal, ormond is well ormond etc. There are still quite a few maps with fine/too high pallet counts.
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As I said - some killers indeed suffer there. But IMO most (not vast majority) are very good at the map.
As for legion - try julie's mixtape+iri button+enduring+spirit fury+2 other perks (like jolt + pain res). That's almost free win (but sure enough, you need to bring build)
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Bring the build and also have it be on that map and it requires an iri addon. But yes that build would make legion super good on that map finally.
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