Where did we go wrong?
what update/multiple updates/year/chapter did things start going downhill and led to where we are today? What was the straw that broke the camels clavicle?
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When they nerfed the Undying Ruin combo.
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The undying where it could go to all 5 totems?
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Yes back when the aura reading was also on both hexes and dulls. Imagine having to cleanse 5 ######### totems against a sweaty blight that had also infinite tinkerer
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Nowhere...?
Aside from a few missteps, the game's been overall improving over the past two years or so.
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I don't think anything is going downhill. It might be subjective though.
Edit: On second thought Skull Merchant releasing was a couple of hills down so we tryna go from there LOL.
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Yes, that one.
That would be a dream match today. No camping, no tunneling. Just a Blight that constantly switches targets. Imagine that!
On top, Ruin had no effect when a survivor worked on a gen.
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It's rather naive to think that Blight wouldn't still tunnel.
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Every sinlge one. DBD has been dying for 7 years now. /s
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Then he wouldn´t need that build. As Ruin does absolutely nothing when the killer doesn´t constantly switch targets.
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I think it was the billy nerf
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A few downs here and there, but i don't really feel like we went downhill anywhere in a major way.
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When they introduced MFT.
Excluding Skull Merchant's existence, the period of time following the Overbrine, CoH, DH, and medkit nerfs (and the Eruption nerf shortly before that) was the best state the game had ever been in.
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I'm confused on some of these points, I'd love some clarification if you don't mind.
Specifically, when you say that "the game should be as vanilla as possible", with "no interesting builds or playstyles", what exactly are you referring to here?
Similarly with the idea of killer powers and addons being "boring because they're unfair", what changes are you referring to there?
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we didn't go wrong no where. DBD still the goat!!!
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This man I know most people hate it but I love DBD. It's easily my fav pvp game balance issues and all.
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The game hasn't gone downhill. It's when the playerbase decided to move to a more competitive, optimal and meta-absorbed mindset and moved away from just enjoying the game, exploring and having fun.
The strive for having to be known as an amazing player to a point where, if they go through a rough patch, it is everything else which is the problem and not them. The need to follow their favourite YouTuber and only use what they use. The game needs the fun back and, for the most part, the tools are there. Some changes could be made, but I'd put the main reason down to the shift in mentality towards it.
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You can't blame playerbase for everything, bhvr said in patchnote that they were "fighting tunneling and camping" then buffed both immediatly after to increase killrates, they also failed with gen rush they are still as fast. It's their fault for focusing on imaginary balance that will never exist in dbd instead of making the game fun for both sides
TCM devs have already said they're focused on fun not balance, that's a smart approach
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Not sure what you mean by "one shots" being removed, do you mean Exposed effects? I can't think of many of those that have been removed.
Ditto with Trapper, do you mean placing the traps directly under hooks...? I don't remember anything about Trapper being able to place traps under survivors, but maybe I just didn't notice that changing.
Flashlights and medkits have not been removed, that's very much an exaggeration. Flashlight saves actually got easier a little while back and haven't been nerfed at all, they only removed some power interactions and also locker saves, the latter of which because they were unbalanced. As for medkits, they were literally just balanced, so that they're only "pretty good" instead of "overwhelmingly powerful".
I don't think those perks are all meant to deal with body blocking, to be fair. Mad Grit is, and you could argue Starstruck is, but Iron Grasp and Agitation are both geared more towards being able to carry further to get to further away hooks; I've been running them in my Scourge Hook build for that reason. Even if they were all for the same thing, though, wouldn't it be better for the game to have more variety in which tools you want to bring for that purpose? They all work somewhat differently, meaning your build can be more nuanced and customisable. I think that's more fun, personally.
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Back in 2017 trapper could place traps right under hooks so as soon as they got saved they got trapped
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Yeah, I knew about that, but that's not actually what they said so I was clarifying if that's what they meant.
I mean, obviously that's indefensible and it's good that it was changed, but that's only relevant if that is what they're referring to.
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I think the last straw was the big meta shake-up, although not necessarily in the way that one would think.
COH and DH were ridiculous perks and absolutely needed the nerfing. The two problem were that
A) One of the healthiest perks in the game, DS (deactivating after the exit gates are powered) got completely obliterated and there was no tool given for survivors to combat tunneling, which is the most effective way to win and certain killers are REALLY good at it. Mind you, this was after the devs said that they want to encourage other playstyles apart from camping and tunneling. Absolutely ridiculous.
B) There was no overall balancing of maps and Killers, all of which over the past couple of years were balanced around a de facto DH meta, where all survivors were pretty much expected to have 3 health states. That was then removed to 2 health states, but the balance that slowly formed in the previous years was based off of a now defunct system, resulting in killrates skyrocketing and SoloQ escape rates plummeting to single digit percents for the first time. Don't forget, killers tunneled a little less because DS was too much of a risk! So you went from 3 healthstates per survivor and tunneling being risky, to 2 health states per survivor and tunneling being the easiest it has ever been.
Meanwhile the devs are still releasing some laughably bad maps with oversaturation of pallets, leading to M1 killers suffering, despite the fact that playing Killer has never been easier (with the exception of the short timeframe where COB/Eruption/PR/OC was so insufferably bad, that even BHVR of all people realized it needed to go ASAP).
The game desperately needs a huge balance overhaul for ALL killers and ALL maps. Or it's just going to continue bleeding out players since SoloQ is dead and buried and Killer can be almost as miserable unless you are playing Blight, Nurse, Wesker, Spirit. Or you just go up against a SoloQ team that will melt even against no perks and addons and no tunneling because SBMM doesn't work, has never worked and will never work as long as it is based off hockey.
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For me, the straw that broke the camel's hoof was probably the gen kick meta. It feels like things went down hill from there.
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Way back with patch 1.9.2. probably.
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The only update I feel BHVR made a mistake on was the Hillbilly rework for the most part. They've had bad updates but I personally feel there wasn't many major mistakes comparable to that one.
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Eh, old-old Undying was busted, but I do miss when Ruin was a big player. 6.1 did some good things but it was mostly bad, just swapped one meta for another, less fun one.
That said, I don't agree the game is falling into some pit of brokenness. In many ways it's much better than it used to be. It just seems to be two steps forward, one step back, all the time.
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As a player whos been here from day one I know exactly where they've went wrong and I'll gladly explain my stance, first off DBD is still a great game and that's why we're all still here after all these years, BUT this game could've been so much more and when the devs deviated from making new game modes and secondary objectives they basically doubled down on the cat mouse looping instead and in turn shrunk all the maps down and instead of adding more to the game to make it better for both sides they settled on the cat mouse looping game and got into a situation where certain maps can feel too survivor sided and certain killer powers feel like they take zero braincells to play as, ALL of this points back to them doubling down on this small sandbox style instead of expanding and giving killers insanely cool extra abilities with bigger maps or different objectives for other ways to survive or having more ways to fight back as survivor and now this game is dull compared to the potential it had and is a hold m1 and W simulator while running in circles , instead of a horror experience we get a see who can humiliate the other side experience for some laughs.
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For me it happened when MMR came into play. Now it's either play certain ways or be stuck picking on newer players. I don't care for either but I'm still going to play how I want.
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Yea but you could also Sabo all those traps back then and they didn't respawn along with the hooks, hed be stuck as a m1 killer with no power and he'd be forced to have iron grasp and agitation to get you to the basement from anywhere on the map
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I think it’s exactly this. It’s the players mindset influenced by the content creators.
I do have a somewhat gripe with content creators that push for the “optimal” play, mainly Otz. Don’t get me wrong - he be the GOAT. But, he has a very specific influence over people with small minds and sensitive egos that I don’t think he is aware of - at 8k viewers a time, he’s definitely influencing. Jesus even during HC Survivor, JRM & Aayron where goofing around and he was just screaming at them the whole time.
Now with the heal nerf (yes, influenced a lot by Otz) there is no time to play for fun, you play optimally or your out the game fast.
With the gen speed nerf (again, influenced by Otz) survivors tried to counter by playing gen perks along with BHVR releasing gen perks leading to gen rushing out of panic which led to gen slowdown builds being the counter to the counter leading to where we are now…. Fast tunnelling games where either side is afraid to take a break because gens will fly or teams will die. It’s stale. And NO, it’s not perks that are the problem, not Eruption, not Pain Res, not MFT! It’s now the players. BHVR changed the settings and we adjusted to a hole that we probably can’t change back unless BHVR removes All gen slowdowns and speed ups whilst saying “no longer the play style” and forces us out of the whole of countering the counter to the counter to the counter influenced by the counter.
sorry if I’m coming across as an Otz hater, I’m really not. I respect him so much for his mindset but DBD was not the game. I think he needs to watch and under the full reach of his influence which no, does NOT directly influence BHVR - but it does his viewers, who then complain, who then tweet, who then report which THEN influencers BHVR.
F balance. The game should be fun.
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The camel’s clavicle
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That isint about fairness it’s about what putting traps under survivors meant, everyone agrees it was unbalanced as hell in 2017
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Current Undying is a joke thought. Especially with the totem spawns.
No one is using hex perks anymore unless its a build with Plaything. Simply because Hex perks and spawns are so bad. Old Undying was a solution to that. At least partly.
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Tbh hexes as a whole are stupid with these totem spots, I feel as thought it would be better if all hexes got reworked and turned into normal perks. Make them less powerful but remove the ability to outright disable an entire perk. Example: plaything instead of having to be cleansed now has a timer (60,70,80 seconds maybe?) where the survivor is oblivious. Not as strong because it’s only active for a limited amount of time but isn't a complete roulette if it’s going to be gone in 3 minutes or 30 seconds.
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It was bad for the game. Glad it's gone and never coming back :)
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The meta shakeup patch.
Sure, second chance meta and BBQ + Pop were starting to get stale, but they were way healthier than any meta we've had since.
I also personally absolutely hate what they did to self care and Botany Knowledge.
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I miss my totem hunting builds, I remember being excited when Small Game got the totem counter.
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Well the game is at the most balanced it has ever been imo, but we need to nerf Made For This.
After that we could just focus on buffing underused perks and make them worth using, but the game is in a really good state right now.
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How was it bad?
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Yeah, no one is running small game, because Hex perks are extremely rare.
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6.1.
The nerf to DS was one of the worst things that ever happened. Up to that point, survivor meta had been drowning in band-aid perks that countered camping, tunnelling and slugging. With BT going basekit killers learned to counter it by just counting it out. With DS getting removed, tunnellers got the green light. With DS getting removed, Unbreakable also lost its place in the DS-UB combo.
So on top of killers getting a major boost to all the most game-busting strategies, now survivors were getting three empty perk slots to fill up with all the genrushing stuff the killers never knew they hated. The whole game became a massive sweatfest.
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The lack of changes... 6.1.0 was the only time they have done anything close to changing anything
But some of the changes were just to change things
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You make it sound like the basekit BT was something bad for survivors.
Also, defending pre 6.1. DS? That perk was so insanely broken.
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DS nerf. It's only been downhill since.
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Before they first nerfed Ruin.
Old Ruin. Like True Ruin. Was the last time DbD was great.
But the patch that nerfed the 2nd version of Ruin was even worse.
Every patch that nerfed slowdown perks made Killer worse and worse to the point I'm forced to camp and tunnel because a chase will cost you gens and you'll end up with zero kills.
Better to guarantee one kill through camping. Then hope to get more at end game.
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SBMM being introduced and having the game be more competitive instead of casual. When it was rank based I had alot more survivors/killers play relaxed and give alot more kills/escapes than I do now.
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sbmm,realm map reworks,knight,skull merchant,unnessasary nerfs on both sides.
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SBMM
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Not really, but it wasn't a straight upgrade either. It didn't last as long, and it was guaranteed, so killers were more likely to count it out and just smack you the second it ended. Plus, it precluded the use of Off the Record, which was supposed to be DS's replacement.
Also, defending pre 6.1 DS? That perk was so insanely broken.
Outside of the EGC usage, DS would only hit a killer if they were actually tunnelling. In all other scenarios, it was useless. It was hard countered by just not tunnelling, and not pressing spacebar. In all the time that I played against pre-6.1 DS, I only got hit with it once, and it was an extremely obvious bait that I learned from, and I never got hit by it again.
For the record, I'm not opposed to the EGC trim at all, but the -40% stun duration was an entirely undeserved nerf that crippled the perk's functionality.
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