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Mangled has become overtuned (and should never be combined with Hemorrhage)
Hello,
with the latest changes to Medkits and Self-Healing, I think that Mangled has become overtuned. Before those Changes I thought the only thing which should not be the case is that Mangled and Hemorrhage are combined in single Perks or Add Ons, because with Hemorrhage being more than a gimmicky tracking tool, it has become too good to have those two Status effects combined.
So in general, slower healing and healing regression should never be combined in the same Add On or Perk. This would affect: Sloppy Butcher, Scourge Hook: Gift of Pain, Begrimed Head (purple Huntress Add On), Blind Warrior (green Wraith Add On), Powdered Glass (green Skull Merchant Add On), Thorny Nest (green Artist Add On), Tilling Blade (purple Dredge Add On)
I think both Status effects are strong enough on their own now.
However, my Main Point is Mangled itself.
Healing times got changed to 24 seconds of Self-Healing, while still being 16 seconds for healing others. Furthermore there were nerfs and Changes to Circle of Healing and also Medkits. You basically have to decide now if you want a fast Medkit which can bring you one Heal (even if "fast" still means that it is way slower than before) OR you can equip a Medkit which heals you multiple times at base Speed (24 seconds).
Obviously it is a bit faster to use the Medkits on other Survivors, however, from my experience Medkits are rarely used to heal others.
The thing is, I am very sure that the real Heal Times experienced in games are far longer because I see Mangled being used in almost every game. The only Killers I see without Mangled are those who dont have an Add On which inflicts Mangled and dont rely on Basic Attacks - and this basically applies to Blight only. Every other Killer almost always has Mangled in some form.
It is very easy to apply, the Killer just has to hit. And the benefit is really big and makes the Nerf to healing even stronger. IMO the Nerfs to Medkits and Self-Healing were fine, but they become too much with Mangled involved. And as I said, it is present in almost every game.
Solution:
At the very least Mangled and Hemorrhage should not be paired in the same Perk and Add On.
Mangled itself should be nerfed, I dont know which amount makes sense.
On a side note - giving Nurse a Mangled-Add On after removing the synergy with Sloppy Butcher was not really smart and as an honorable mention, she should lose her Mangled-Add On completely.
Comments
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I couldn't disagree more. We already have a stale meta for many years now. Hit and run is a playstyle that would be ruined and that would ruin quite a few Killers who need to rely on it to get anything done, best example being Dredge. If you nerf something that many Killers outside the top need, you will only reinforce the Meta and push Killers into even more obnoxious any annoying playstyles. Remember that Sloppy doesn't really do much for people who camp and tunnel for example because the tunneled survivor doesn't get a chance to get healed anyway, so nerfing it would punish all Killers except those who use those strategies.
Just about every method of pressuring survivors do feel oppressive, and thats exactly the point as they would ignore it or generally be ineffective otherwise. Trying to fix that is just asking the monkey paw to give you the middle finger.
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I mean, as if Sloppy Butcher is not part of the stale meta. It just got even more than before.
Let alone that keeping Mangled as it is with those Heal Times just means that Survivors are less likely to heal and more likely to use Perks like Resilience to do Gens even faster. We already had threads from people complaining that Survivors just stay injured. I mean, sure, the solution in this Forum will be to nerf Resilience and other Perks which benefit being injured, but this is not the way to go.
Like, two people healing each other with Mangled will take roughly the same time like half a generator. And guess what those two Survivors will do instead? Half a Generator.
Even if Mangled gets nerfed, it will still be fine because it will still benefit from the increased Self-Healing and the Medkit-Nerf.
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I don’t think Mangled needs a nerf. As for whether it’s okay for it to be combined with Hemorrhage, I would say it depends on the specific perk/addon. For Gift of Pain I think it's fine and Hemorrhage is required on that perk because otherwise you can hard counter it by 99ing your heal with a medkit - this was part of why the perk was so terrible originally because Hemorrhage didn’t do that at that time. Sloppy Butcher I’m less sure on.
I do think survivor perks that grant partial heal progress should be changed to instead temporarily reduce the number of charges required to finish the heal (only for that single heal), similar to how BNPs work now, so Hemorrhage does not hard counter those perks anymore.
As for addons I will say the following:
Wraith's relevant addon should lose one of the two status effects, as it is, it is pretty much free Sloppy Butcher. A perk slot should be worth more than an addon slot and you should have to run the perk if you want both effects in this case since the game is very lenient on what counts as a surprise hit.
Knight's two addons that inflict them separately on guard hits SHOULD be combined into one addon with both, guard hits are too uncommon for either of these 2 addons in their current states to be impactful so that’s a case where I think having both is appropriate.
Tilling Blade is fine having both because it actually has a timed Mangled effect, so you can just ignore it because if you don't heal within 60 seconds the effect removes itself even if you are still injured. It is the only Mangled effect in the game that can just expire without healing.
I do agree with you about the Nurse addon, I would probably change it to this: “Blink attacks following only a single blink apply Mangled.” In other words, it no longer works if you chain blink.
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I absolutely think Haemorrhage needs a nerf so that your health decreases slower. This would give you the opportunity to interrupt the loss of say Solidarity or Resurgence, and would mean interrupting a heal for a second doesn't instantly wipe all of your progress.
Mangled, I could see it getting a slight nerf. It currently reduces healing speed by -20%, so heals take 25% longer. It could be dropped to -15%, which would mean heals take about 18% longer?
But if both of these happen, then they absolutely need to always come together, on perks and add ons, no more add ons that either just Haemorrhage OR Mangled, they should do both.
It's one of the other, not both. Or you're not looking for a fair adjustment, you're just looking to slap those filthy killer mains.
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Bring a map and run inner healing. Been working out pretty well for me. I get on average 2-3 heals per game with little effort. I run overzealous to make up for some of the lost time.
Your other option is to run an "injured" build. And just never heal. So run things like Iron will or Made for this. Healing is not really an option right now, especially in solo survivor games.
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Good, despte how op i thought coh was i loved it since it killed hit and runners
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Ok, I would agree to your point about the Knight-Add On. Maybe on a case by case-basis Hemorrhage should be removed from things which inflict Mangled (or added to some, I think Guard-Hits are rare enough to make them better with an Add On). Also agree on Gift of Pain, because indeed the Perk would be way weaker if it would not inflict Hemorrhage. Did not really think about that to be honest.
I would be fine with Hemorrhage and Mangled existing at the same time (see above, on a case by case-basis), when it is slower heal regression. Because it can just really suck to have a heal to almost finished, Killer comes back and it is gone almost instantly. Especially because it took longer due to Mangled.
When it comes to Mangled itself, I dont really know which number makes sense. Because it should be a Nerf which is relevant, but it should not make Mangled as a Status effect obsolete.
When it comes to Perks like Solidarity or Resurgence - I think those should not be affected by Hemorrhage anyway. Even before the change to Hemorrhage those Perks were barely used and niche at best, making Hemorrhage not affect them would just revert them back to their state before the Hemorrhage-Change, so they would be nowhere near overpowered, but maybe worth taking.
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