MFT is now the 2nd most picked perk on Nightlight

Yet you're taking one simple sentence out of that whole post without really understanding the rest. Noed is just the one example I used since it's the easiest but there are other options for sure. My point is that you can't complain because a side has some counterplay

Aaaaand the kill rates?

I wouldn't say it invalidates end game as a phase. What I'm saying is they still have to physically open the gates, and that is on a 20s timer. If I killed 0 people reaching endgame, I lost. Even if I catch the first Survivor I find, by the time I plop them on hook, the other 3 can easily have left through the gates, or if I slugged, someone could slip by while I'm chasing the 2nd person and I'd be back at square one. Instead, Survivors throw matches to get extra hook saves and greed the 4 man escape. I would argue that artificially inflates kill stats. In all likelihood, if Killer reaches endgame without a kill by then, they lost the match. Losing by a secured 4 man escape because of Hope is hardly different from a secured 3 man escape because the normal gameplay feature that you can't be everywhere at once.

Personally I encourage 2 hooking everyone (and that's why I don't tunnel) because it ensures that as Killer you are closer to the skill level of your MMR. If a Killer artificially inflates their kill rates, they will go against people who are more skilled than them, forcing them to crutch on the things that caused them to be in that scenario to begin with. That is where I believe many of the Killer's complaints stem from. They won with the free win version Eruption, but never developed the skill to survive without it. Then with the crutch removed, they started losing and crutching on camping/tunneling. Then hook grabs were removed making it even harder to crutch with facecamping. Now Killers who crutched are dealing with Survivors of their MMR (but not of their skill level), and thus are popping all the gens before 4 hooks.

I entirely disagree that either MfT or Hope encourage tunneling. It literally makes it easier to spread hooks and force pressure on Survivors when they are playing without a perk slot. I'd say Adrenaline is worse for the game than Hope, because Adrenaline players play to win, Hope players play to delay their death. Adrenaline encourages skipping the heal post-hook for pumping the final gen. The game roughly functions with Surv A on hook, B in chase, C going for the rescue and subsequent heal, and D to pump gens. When you are chasing someone on death hook, no one is prepping to rescue them, so you effectively have 3 Survs on gens. That makes it better to force the equilibrium with 1 gen being progressed at all times. It isn't impossible to down people with Hope+MfT, just harder. If they have no teammates to open the gates for them, they also can't exactly make use of the speed boost.

I do find it funny though that when I echo your sentiment for the other side (with video and picture proof of my claim, when you provided none for yours) that you claim I am 'changing the conversation'. Endgame isn't invalidated as long as Killers can still play the game. Huntress can still throw hatchets, Trapper can still trap gates, and the baby Legion can still hold W and build Bloodlust.

So wait, Sprint Burst gets ~24s of chase time, but MfT gets ~19s. Where is the complaint? The time gets 'reset' but all it is resetting is whether or not you make the window/pallet in time. If you would make it without MfT you would make it with. Even then, how is Bloodlust not accumulating to T2 and T3 if MfT is extending the chase time by so long? Unless it is a god pallet, the Killer is in control of Bloodlust. A stun drops 1 tier, and a pallet break drops all. The Killer can simply respect/ignore the pallet and keep building Bloodlust to force the down. Why is MfT resetting distance while also resetting Bloodlust to nothing? If the Killer is getting a hit against an SB user in Bloodlust 1, that just means the same Killer needs only wait 10s for Bloodlust 2 and have an easier time than the BL1 SB chase. (.88m/s difference instead of .8, or ~21% faster BL T2 vs MfT compared to 20% faster BL T1 non MfT)

I love the thinking of me believing MfT and Hope being unfair means I most get 0ks all the time. I very rarely do, it's possible to see something isn't balanced while being able to play around it, it's just that playing around means making the game unfun for the other side which I know isn't something a lot of people on here think about but I do and would rather not make the game annoying for the other side.

But I guess we can continue to pretend everything is fine and suggest terrible perks as counters to real problems.

A lot of these perks would be fine if they didn't all stack. But it's a matter of time before they nerf MFT into the ground as well.

Like our old friend Dead Hard.

It will never will be because its not a broken perk. Lets not be silly that most of the meta in DBD in made by strong perks, and in some cases, broken ones.

About the argument of MFT being "fun" and other discussion on the topic:

People are not using MFT because its fun (how this perk can be fun if it does not enable nothing new for surv, only increasing the surv mov speed? LOOPING is FUN, and that is what this perk improves), but because you can feel the difference it makes in a match, if you have a little bit of game knowledge.

Plot Twist, Dramaturgy, Head On, even DH can be fun, but MFT its one of the most stale and boring perks in the game and wouldn't be used if wasn't one the strongest perks released in the years.

Want a fair comparision for what an MFT for killers would be? A perk that gives you permanent Bloodlust level 1 as long one generator have been completed, or a 4.8m/s killer basekit.

Eat to much: When a killer try to vault a windows, he fall, making all generator in the terror radius explode (cooldown of 40 secondes)

Screw it: When a Killer try to kick a gen, he break is toe's and scream, making all survivor in a radius of 20 meters screaming of fear and giving the exposed effect during 10 secondes, the gen doesn't regress at the end and the perk are on cooldown

I quit: If a killer go near a empty locker, he can enter in there and just waiting there, he got in a indetectable mode as long he stay inside

I'm using it because I know it's going to be nerfed, so might as well enjoy it's existence while it lasts.

If that was true killers wouldn't complain about "bully squads" who run full meme builds and always lose because they're allergic to gens.

Killers would absolutely complain about survivors being toxic if throwing pebbles was popular and I've seen enough people calling literally anything that somewhat inconveniences them 'bullying' to not change my mind.

And in case you misunderstood, I wasn't comparing pebble to MFT at all, or adding anything of value to OP's thread (and im gonna leave it for that very reason)

Maybe i wasn't clear. I'm agreeing with you but in the opposite way. I don't think either should exist. I'm not complaining about counterplay, I'm criticizing a problematic perk that disrupts core mechanics in the game. Their is a reason movement speed is typically not touched very often, or if it is, there are several steps to getting it. MFT is entirely too beneficial for the low effort it takes to activate it. If your argument is "what about NOED" I'm answering with "please get rid of both." Seems like a decent trade.

TBH, any perks that gives survivors a looping advantage is stronger than a single one in killer side, as you must consider that every second that a survivor wons against a killer is 4sec on killers time. Then multiply that by 4 (every survivor could use that one perk) and we have a problem. I don't think we never had S tier chase perk for killers - at least as far as i remember - but if we had, it would only be strong as survivor chase perks, like SB, Lithe or Overcome; remember that killer also need info perk and gen regression perks, as without them, even making fast chases you still can get all gens done and take 3 to 2 escapes.

My point was: the game is made around 4.6 killers (and some 4.4 with projectiles or strong chase powers) trying to catch 4.0 survivors that can drop pallets (expendable resource) or vaults windows. You can say killers have powers to help them in chases - at least, part of them - but you need to remember that most powers change the killers speed to 4.0 or below while they are using it.

Giving killers an easy way to move 0.2m/s faster or survivors to move 0.12m/s is kinda game breaking, as all of game balance made in 7 years was made thinking that most of the time killers will move 4.6/4.4 and survivors will move 4.0.

It's always been a bit of a pet peeve of mine when people use that "killer time is four times as valuable as survivor time" thing as though it's broadly applicable to the entirety of the trial and not just the very start of it. That number doesn't apply if even one survivor is accounted for, be it in chase, slugged, hooked, or dead.

Moving on to the broader point, there's been ways of messing with your movement speed for ages, especially on the killer side. If there's a problem with Made For This giving you Haste, it's actually that it's a low number that isn't extremely obvious what it's impacting, because that makes it subtle enough that you may not realise you need to correct your play for it. It isn't itself unbalanced, though it is strong, the problem with it comes from Endurance, Haste stacking (because it's a small number that is consistently available, making it a fantastic base for temporary increases to benefit from), and potentially the killer not knowing when it's in effect.

Regardless, my real point up there is that you can't do a direct one to one comparison to Made For This on the killer side, even as a hypothetical new perk. There's no direct counterpart to the two conditions that perk has, and even its base speed value would be comparatively more powerful for the role that already moves faster and has powers to help further.

(Also you don't need regression or info, and whether your chases are fast isn't as important as if you're applying macro pressure.)

Have you played this game before? 90% of matches are filled with at a minimum of what you'd consider 1 bot Survivor, and 1 bot Survivor makes the whole house of cards fall down. The next 9% don't have bot Survivors, but are still soloq or an uncoordinated SWF. The final 1% (or probably much less) are actual sweat SWFs. I have to assume you wouldn't be complaining this hard about less than 1% 'impossible', or rather annoying but winnable in actuality, (or 10% minor inconvenience) matches. I have too much faith in humanity for that to be the case.

Yes they don't hang around giving free hits, thats what previously broken pallets are for. However they do give greed hits. People get greedy, they take the hit to juice 2 more seconds on the gen, and because they think (if they brought it) MfT will save them after the first hit. Most gens are close to the edge of a map and that forces them into a loop. Also if people are leaving gens on TR like you claim, I would never lose a gen when I'm not playing Ghostface, and all Weskers that bring a single slowdown perk would always win at 5 gens. We both know that isn't the case, so don't pretend otherwise.

Now to be fair, I missed a lot of the nitty gritty details. You would be fair in claiming this could be a 'draw the rest of the owl' post, but I tried to include as many broad strokes as possible for people who might need it. It is difficult to sum thousands of hours of knowledge and experimentation into a few paragraphs, but I tried to balance being concise and comprehensive, which doesn't quite gel together.

Because two wrongs dont make a right. "This problematic perk exists so more problematic perks should exist" is the stupidest argument ive ever heard. Jesus. Do better.

Okay killer without chase effective power (and with chase I mean my example, just running, not even looping):

trapper, Micheal, hag, doc, Freddy, pig, plague (without red bile), ghost face, oni (before first rage), Nemesis (until he comes into tentacle range), knight (afaik his ghosts can catch-up to a survivor but I might be wrong on this one), skull merchant. None of them can slow the survivor during a straight chase.

And yes stealth killer will get the first hit but either have to abandoned chase and hope the survivor isn't healed until the next encounter or have to simply continue chasing. Same with legion, for their second hit they have to chase a survivor normally.

Clown can influence survivor in front of them/at a distance so he falls under killer with chase effective power.

That is a very strange definition of chase effective power, when you basically limit it to mobility only. While it is true many of those characters lack a chase power by your standards, they are supposed to use their power to win in other ways. They mostly all shorten chases by using different methods. (With the exception of Pig who wins through attrition largely.)

Trapper either forces a loop swap, or ends a chase early because they didn't see the trap. Hag sets traps and teleports for the hit. Ghostface's power is to 1-hit down people and sneak up on them with a small profile, while also setting up 99's to punish healthy rescues and greed. Each of those I would consider a 'set-up' Killer. They win by choosing their engagements and forcing Survivors into losing positions, be it a heavily bear trapped area, the web of hag traps, and 99's saved for rainy days.

Plague is like a better version of Legion, where everyone is perpetually injured due to being sick, which means when the Killer forces objectives like hook rescues, they die on route and the Killer can snowball easily. This is reliant on knowing where the Survivors are, so the Killer can cut them off. This makes Legion's Killer Instinct intel and Plague vomit aura add-on very powerful when used correctly, but can still be used with perks instead.

I'm very confused why Nemesis out of Tentacle range is considered, when he is nearly always in tentacle range. Oni against soloq is basically a permanent blood fountain. So while both are correct in an extreme sense, that's almost like saying Huntress doesn't have a power when she misses all of her hatchets and is out of ammo. Both Nemmy and Oni have near constant access to their power.

Also Freddy is like a purple bottle only at loops Clown with teleports. So you can maintain a map presence at the cost of Clown's yellow bottles basically. Even then, yellow bottles in chase are the superior way to win as Clown, so its fair to say Freddy is weak.

Knight and Doc both kinda operate under the same paradigm of "I will eventually get a hit at this loop". But Doc's slowdown is just too outdated imo. As an honorable mention, Myers is also in the outdated department.

By large those Killers are macro reliant (worrying about map wide gens/pallets/hook states) more than micro reliant (chasing after a Survivor like a dog after a stick). I think both micro and macro are important playstyles to encourage, as long as they don't reach Nurse (for micro) and Hostage Merchant (for macro) levels.

Most of these lack of mobility complaints don't quite matter when the Killer can shorten chases with effective uses of power. I'd almost consider a Bloodlusted hit (aka powerless) the baseline speed. If the Killer player knows their character, they wouldn't use the power if it would take longer than the BL hit.

So let me summarize, even with your math which accounts for all kinds of arbitrarily conservative assumptions:

• MFT extends the chase by +2.8 sec
• Sprint Burst extends it by +7.5 sec

Conclusion: Sprint Burst gives 2.8x more effect in chase than MFT

You can twist the math as much as you want, 3% is so negligible in terms of distance gained that MFT will always look subpar compared to every other exhaustion perk. Note that it's the consensus across top killer streamers as well, the distance gained is fine. I know DBD forums love buffing killers but at least don't make it sound like math is in your favor please.

Four people using pebble would be enough to piss someone off lol, no need for them to be infinite. also, it's kinda weird that (most) people agree survivors' fun is not the killer's responsibility and they can play how they want if it's fun to them but survivors who make their own fun are bullying the killer. I'm not saying it's probably related to the number of killers i've seen who genuinely believe swfs' goal is to make the killer miserable "otherwise they would play in KYF" but they certainly seem to think everything is about them.

Give me Lethal Pursuer re-work/nerf and I’ll gladly hand over Made for This to the chopping block.

Both old second change and new mft+resi+hope meta are boring. The problem is, the mft meta is so strong that it single handly can totally cripple survivor perk build variety, there's just no other perk build that comes even close. And thats solely on Mft, bc it makes both resi and hope worth running. Thats my whole point.

The perk overhaul really did shake the meta up, lobbies would have a really nice variety of builds. But with Mft released, step by step the variety disappears again. Thats my main concern about the perk. We are evolving into the same stale meta situation we had before the perk overhaul, just the perks are different now. Mft, Resi, Hope, DH, Windows, thats about it.

And as a side effect, since Mft does allow you to have longer chases AND ignore healing altogether, games are even faster. Not even talking about mft + hope in end game, which is totally broken. So for killers, esp the weaker ones, the only option to not get stomped badly is to equip full slowdown. Thus creating a boring killer meta as well.

I know how hopeless you can feel as a killer playing against full mft lobbies, without any gen defense perks (I usually play with random perks). Heck, even with slowdown, you may have to sweat hard to even get a tie. Sure, you are not meant to win every game, but we are not talking about tense matches here that you barely lose, but games that are pretty much unwinable from the start. Just bc you did not equip 4 gen defense perks.

At this point, they need to redesign every single map to make room for every survivor using mft and change distances of loops and suchs. It's ridiculous how overwhelmingly broken this has become and BHVR thinks it's fine.