Why i play skull merchant

2

Comments

  • HappyFace
    HappyFace Member Posts: 26

    I got her when Alien released, and I've been having more fun with her than I thought. It was a bit frustrating at first since I actively tried to avoid three genning, but I got used to a playstyle of placing drones on generators that are getting done and then screwing off to chase a distant survivor. The survivor on the generator will take care of the drone, giving you some haste to help catch the other survivor. When you do catch that survivor and hook them, you can then use the phone to find that survivor and chase them, the claw trap helping to take care of a downed pallet every once in a while.

    It's not the strongest chase power, basically just a timed MFT for killer, but the additions of the undetectable status effect, potential instantdowns and decent map knowledge add some interesting options for what to do in different situations. When they reduce her three genning potential, I hope they don’t impact that chase part of her power too much.

  • Archol123
    Archol123 Member Posts: 4,634

    If you look at smaller communities especially in custom game lobbies they regulate fairly well, also tf2 is a way larger game than DBD and will most likely never die because for some reason it still exists.

    You seem to confuse politeness and caring for other people, which should be taught by parents before children go play with their friends with what some brats come up with when bullying, it is not about the unwanted behavior but about the behavior the community wishes for itself.

    The devs could not even come up with different game mode or some basic functions every other game seems to have, like replay mode or saving replays, blocking communication which certain players and so on. So I don't really have trust in their abilities, such things are the bare minimum for a game 10 years ago and it is just pathetic that this game does not have it in 2023.

    Im not saying that all those communities should come up with only one rule set to hold up, but maybe one for each server in case they are truly different. If people come to an agreement of certain rules they want to hold up that can totally work, that's basically what guilds and clans in other games do for example.

    The comp community also uses their specific rule set and excludes you if you don't play along those rules, so obviously self regulation can work, because it has proved to work in many games.

    The game is basically neither, it is not competitive because of its rng and busted stuff on both sides, but also matchmaking not working and it is neither a party game because you cannot just start it and have fun with friends because the new player experience is terrible and once again matchmaking is too bad and it will make it miserable.

  • Archol123
    Archol123 Member Posts: 4,634

    Also on a side note if you think that caring for other people and being polite and not intentionally making things miserable for other people is child's play and only on playgrounds then you are a terrible human being since empathy, pity and caring are parts of what makes us human, the ability to care for others and feel bad for them.

  • JustAnotherNewbie
    JustAnotherNewbie Member Posts: 1,941

    The op never said they rub it in the face of survivors. They could very well be polite and kind in post chat, we have no way of knowing that. Asking them to not play Skull Merchant and if they do not play them the way you like ever is a bit entitled. I understand disliking this killer and their playstyle. I also dislike Nurses and Blights who sweat even one peron DC'd or killed themselves on hook and make fun of them.


    But it's a stretch to try and put a moral spin to a post like this and talk about community (which community again? We don't even know what server OP plays in).


    And if you wanna make comparison asking people to self-regulate cause the company is untrustworthy or something is like saying we can solve environmental pollution by using paper straws and cups etc. and accept it as individual responsibility and refuse to address the ones who produce the most pollutants because you're pessimistic. It won't solve the problem, just put a cover over it. You shame OP out of playing Skull Merchant but you can't get to every Skull Merchant main out there who feels the exact same way or people who play her in comp etc.


    For a long while I thought survivor's rulebook was an exaggerrated story killers read to each other before going to bed, but in some of the posts I've read today I'm starting to doubt my assumption so far.

  • alpha5
    alpha5 Member Posts: 362

    I wouldn't be surprised. I consider some of the rampant camping and tunneling to be a solid indicator in that regard or good nurses using nowhere to hide in public matches for that matter.

  • Chomperka
    Chomperka Member Posts: 188
    edited September 2023

    >So I'm unfortunately one of those people who can't help but have somewhat of a competitive mindset

    >But something about just listening to a podcast or some music while chilling and playing dbd feels nice.

    BRO WHAT? Do you even know what competitive mindset means? Competitive mindset- someone who is annoyed by loses, so he improves to be the very best and never lose. Someone with competitive mindset doesnt play to "chill and relax". Of course, sometimes they do want to just chill, but its more of an exception. In fact, someone with competitive mindset will probably find your playstyle boring, because it doesnt involve skill or mindgaming.

    What youre saying is very common annoyance by lose, everyone felt that until they strarted to treat DbD as entertainment or improved.

    Besides, just go and play Spirit, shes chill and not difficult at all killer, but very strong at the same time. Yeah you cant listen to music, but its much faster and you get more of actual DbD gameplay from that.

  • Archol123
    Archol123 Member Posts: 4,634

    It is not about playing the killer itself but the playstyle, that much should be obvious...

  • Archol123
    Archol123 Member Posts: 4,634

    Besides slowdown and aura reading nothing is worth running on nurse, so why not run that, also stealth playstyle is annoying af to go against.

  • UndeddJester
    UndeddJester Member Posts: 3,248
    edited September 2023

    Trying to undermine the point by picking apart a hypothetical example isnt very genuine if you, but eh, alright I'll provide better example.

    For all intents and purposes our game platform here is a playground, as we're all playing a game here, so that part of your argument is weak.

    Let's say you put the ball under your shirt, and use your shirt to hold the ball without touching it with your hands. There is no rule against it, so that is the "developers" fault for allowing it. You use this to run through the opposing team, who can't take the ball off you without fouling you. You get away with it once, and decide to keep doing it.

    However you're in real life now, not safe behind your computer screen. The opposing team will get tired of your BS pretty fast. Next time you try it, 2 players "accidentally" trip, as one falls behind your feet, the other slams shoulder first into you and knocks you hard on your ass.

    What do you learn here? Perhaps nothing and history repeats itself, or maybe you learn to consider others experiences in the game, and instead of being a smart ass, hold some self accountability and start to play in the spirit of game.

  • JustAnotherNewbie
    JustAnotherNewbie Member Posts: 1,941

    I guess then you're in favor of what was happening back in the arcade days where people who would find a new strategy in fighting games and used it (usually teens) and people bigger than them who probably would agree with you would bully them and threaten them with violence and have tantrums over someone not following their made up rules or something. And now after all those years those people look remember them as complete clowns and mentally unstable individuals for reacting that way over the game.


    Your example has no basis in reality because the rules are made by BHVR themself, except for cheating and exploits of course. They designed and added SM in the game in her current state and are not doing anything to address her nor even acting like there's anything wrong with her. If they allow you to put your imaginary ball under your shirt then is it really unintended when they (BHVR) acting like the referee do nothing to actually address it and say "X this is not allowed and will be considered cheating from now on". Currently they are not, you should be mad at them not at players who are not cheating or using well defined exploits in the game (no, your personal definition of an exploit doesn't count)

    Your post is on the same level as the killers who claim "this game was never intended to be played with friends and using discord in pubs is actually cheating/exploit".

  • JustAnotherNewbie
    JustAnotherNewbie Member Posts: 1,941

    Which is allowed and facilitated by the creators themselves.

  • UndeddJester
    UndeddJester Member Posts: 3,248
    edited September 2023

    I would hardly say "we're aware of the problems with Skull Merchant and 3-genning, and are working towards addressing the issues with both in the near future" as not doing anything to address her or act like there is nothing wrong.

    To address your other point, no of course I don't advocate for violence, what meatheaded idiot would say thats ok? However because apparantly I have to explain my point a little clearer:

    In life we have disagreements all the time, and ultimately in real life a heavy disagreement can end in violence. Both people in an argument understand that, and it actually helps keep things civil to a degree. If know you're antagonising your opposition, you're much more likely to try and calm the situation instead of continuing to antagonise.

    Online however, there is no threat of things escalating to violence, and there is no accountability. That's why cheating is a problem online, but is much less so in real life, because when cheating in real life, the threat of violence is there. Think of poker games in the old West... people actually died because of just the suspicion of cheating.

    Now you tell me, do you think, in real life, playing something like Skull Merchant in this style, a style not intended by the games design, knowing full well it antagonises and annoys everyone else in the game, and doing it anyway would not be heavily challenged irl? Do you think people would still do it if they knew they were actually going meet the person they were doing it to that same evening? I do not think so.

    EDIT: Now of course, just the fact it might piss people off and cause arguments is not a strong reason to say playing Skull Merchant like this is wrong. However a commonly praised trait in people is sportsmanship.

    Lord knows there are plenty of people here, who don't bother to play with sportsmanship, but there are people do... and if you can continue do so, even when everyone else around you is being toxic, unfair, exploitative and antagonistic, then more power to you. However you don't get to complain about others doing these negative behaviours, if you do them yourself.

    That's why I make the point the community won't respect you if you do these kind of things, and IRL would turn a blind eye to someone knocking you on your backside.

  • Archol123
    Archol123 Member Posts: 4,634

    They already said they are aware that it is problematic and even buffed anti 3 Gen perks but said the real fix will take some time, so what is your point?

  • Archol123
    Archol123 Member Posts: 4,634

    Little bit over the top, but the point of not wanting to play under certain conditions... Like let's say the bully behaves more like a human being in the sense that he instead of threatening people he just says "look this is really unfun, can you not do this? Otherwise you need someone else to play with", because that exactly is how people going against skull merchant feel... It sucks but they cannot really opt out other than DC or just go afk...

  • JustAnotherNewbie
    JustAnotherNewbie Member Posts: 1,941

    3-genning is a strategy available for every killer in the game granted they bring specific perks and it has been meta in the past and can still be. Skull Merchant simply takes that strategy and specializes in it the same way Sadako specializes in slugging (or at least used to more) and Bubba in camping. Those killers have a clear identity and concept in them, just cause they're adding anti-facecamping mechanic doesn't suddenly mean Bubba's camping ability got nerfed, it didn't. He can still camp just fine, he'll just be a bit more far away. I don't think Bubba (face)camping will be solved with this change.


    Should we punish people who play him and shame them when they go for this intended style, despite BHVR attempting to address this part of the game but not touching the worst offender of all? It's the same argument for Skull Merchant, I don't think they wanna remove this part of her gameplay they just want to probably tune her. She'll still be a boring killer to face because that will most likely remain her core identity/playstyle. Isn't it funny how after Hens made a video about an hour long Knight game back in the Eruption meta BHVR saw that and created a killer who's ability is just that? It's not an accident, even when she's addressed she'll still be here to stay. Maybe they intend her to be on the same level as Blight and Nurse strength wise but with a low skill floor for whatever reason. That's basically someone updating the ruleset, it's an official source. You cannot arbitrarily claim she's not intended by game design, it's exactly the argument many killers make about SWF and discord. Maybe she was not intended a year ago, but BHRV added her and now she's intended. And again, you can see that from her prototype Knight. It wasn't a lab freak accident, it was a pretty calculated design. They're just trying to ironing her wrinkles. When they completely rework her and she's not a 3-genner anymore I'll be able to accept your point more easily.


    There's just no point in going into the thread and trying to make an argument that a person who plays Skull Merchant is immoral. First of all reacting in such a manner over a game is too dramatic and second they're basically not breaking any rules, nor has BHVR ever made a statement regarding players who main SM are exploiting her and should be ashamed or something.

  • Deathstroke
    Deathstroke Member Posts: 3,508

    Maybe I play her wrong but for me it was lot of work to win with her 3 gen stragedy well maybe I went too much on chases. So I would not call her that relaxing as you do have to focus defending the gens and taking right chases.

  • UndeddJester
    UndeddJester Member Posts: 3,248

    I'm not trying to penalise anyone for anything, or saying we should.

    This whole thread is trying to explain/justify why the OP is using this much loathed playstyle...

    I'd think explaining why the argument "I find it relaxing and fun" when the OP themselves knows its a universally hated playstyle doesn't justify it, and stating its selfish to do so anyway is a perfectly reasonable response.

    Just like I think it is a perfectly reasonable response to yourself to say that just because it's an gameplay effect that exists, but is only enabled by a developer oversight, also doesn't justify it either...

    But anyway, agree to disagree I guess.

  • pseudechis
    pseudechis Member Posts: 3,904

    If folks quit and you end up facing bots well then you gotta be happy facing bots and you can change what you do to minimise that, but there is no obligation to change.

    Demanding someone play only against bots because they may play in a manner that you don't like is a silly thing to expect to happen.

  • Pulsar
    Pulsar Member Posts: 20,777

    I asked why you wouldn't play against bots if all you're after is a relaxed Killer experience. I never said you should be forced to.


    With the reasons they provided, I see no reason why they couldn't just play against bots.

  • pseudechis
    pseudechis Member Posts: 3,904

    Ok lets forgo the loaded nature of the question and answer it directly.

    You don't get any bonuses playing against the bots.

    A defensive non chase heavy game of DBD is still a game of DBD.

    I'll usually throw in a game of basement trapper when I feel like it why, because I can still conjure up a 4 k just hanging around the shack. The process of defending that and locking it down and planning who to chase and how can be just as much fun as a full game of constant hunting and chasing. It can just as win/lose too.

    As killer DBD can be played a few ways, some of those require more focus and some less but all are legit.

    Basically you want a different game that requires less tense focus then you can probably orchestrate it, without giving up any of the tense fun and BP's that comes from PVP over bots. Even when using an easier tactic players can still surprise you better than bots can.

    Basement Bubba, Hook web Hag, Basement Trapper, infinite tier 3 Murder Myers, all examples of less interactive play that can be just as fun as highly interactive play but require a lot less focus.

    If someone chooses to play them then I'm not going to question their motives I'm going to try my best to play around it, live or die.

  • Pulsar
    Pulsar Member Posts: 20,777

    So they want the game to be exciting, but not exciting enough that it wouldn't be relaxed?

  • the_honey_badger
    the_honey_badger Member Posts: 111

    I do know what it means for sure, but if you read what I said its more then clear ^^


    I said it's more relaxing and fun. Not competitive and it results in very easy wins. So not being in a competitive mindset and actually gaining a ton of wins by just listening to music or podcast? Then for sure! Count me in ^^

  • the_honey_badger
    the_honey_badger Member Posts: 111

    Oh I definitely have the mindset, but at time's I would rather be out of that mindset and find more relaxing games. Of course its unfun to face, but just being able to relax and have fun (while admittedly playing in an unfun way) is actually quite nice.

  • the_honey_badger
    the_honey_badger Member Posts: 111

    Wow, I wasn't expecting this post to gain so much attention. Keep in mind, please keep talks to one another civil and kind, treat each other with respect too!



    But I could probably summarise the biggest criticisms ive been reading about in regards to my original post.


    "How can you have a competitive mindset while not wanting to play in such a way?"

    I think it's interesting that people point this out, I really think the post should be reread. I do have a competitive mindset but I find playing this way to be fun, if I didn't make it clear I also find this playstyle to be non-competitive. Which admittedly after a ton of games as chase killers feels really nice to slip into, that mindset slips away and I can actually further enjoy my experience for what it is.



    "Its okay to play this way, but people don't have to enjoy it"


    100% agree, if anything I have even stated this in my original post. People don't have to enjoy it, it takes 0 skill to hold a 3 gen as a SM, but either way I'm not responsible (nor should anyone be) for the fun of the other player's I face. Needless to say, the survivor's of this community have often called many killers boring to face. Even basic m1 killers, so at some point it's an impossibility to please the other side.


    Thank you for taking the time to read this again, I do hope you all have an amazing and active day <3

  • Archol123
    Archol123 Member Posts: 4,634

    The of the question was more in the sense that when playing against as a 3 Gen skull merchant the survivor imput does not really matter, if all you do is hold that 3 Gen you will have a 1h long game of only kicking gens and resetting drones and it will be really hard to win as survs unless in comma and experienced, which won't happen often at all. The point is if what you do gameplay wise does not change whether it is against bots or against players, why ruin people's days? You don't chase people so it does not matter that the bots are weird in chase (terrible but also seeing you all the time...) And you cannot tell me it is about the BP, because you spend an hour to get a max of 40k base BP that's not worth the time anyway...

  • AmpersandUnderscore
    AmpersandUnderscore Member Posts: 1,755

    Let's be completely honest about this particular post. Ruining the game for the other players isn't some kind of collateral damage side effect, it's the point of the play style.

    You can't ruin the game for bots that way, which is why that's not an acceptable alternative.

  • pseudechis
    pseudechis Member Posts: 3,904

    I get the point, thanks for the mansplaining there.

    My point is the overaction to it is just laughable.

    Essentially what is being said is "my fun is ruined because I had to play more DBD"

    If the strategy continues to result in extended highly one sided games I'm sure it will be looked at, in the meantime people can try and play it out and move on or they can keep attacking each other about it as some kind of moralistic affront to gameplay out to ruin people's enjoyment. I know which strategy I'm taking and its far more pleasant.

  • pseudechis
    pseudechis Member Posts: 3,904

    Well the OP has tried to explain they are not out to ruin other people's fun and don't harbor any malicious intent to do so.

    So this idea is already null.

    I'm sorry but tactics that you don't like aren't game ruining and the intent of players who use them is often not because they are out to maliciously ruin your fun.

    If you paint every scenario you don't like with that brush its very easy to get into a cycle of blaming other players for your lack of enjoyment and that's just self destructive when it comes to your own fun.

    Something you don't like by all means say I don't like this and here's why, but to say people who do what I don't like should only play against bots is something entirely different.

  • Archol123
    Archol123 Member Posts: 4,634

    There is a difference between that and basically holding a game hostage for an hour to make it end that way...

  • pseudechis
    pseudechis Member Posts: 3,904

    That's a game design flaw for the devs to look at.

    You can still progress the game but at the moment its often too difficult to do so without dying so it needs changing

    Its not really holding the game hostage as players can still attempt to progress the objective. (If BHVR has a different opinion on this they are welcome to correct me).

    So rather than sit in game for 1 hour and moan about it, try and break the 3 gen and die trying if it comes to that.

    If you are annoyed by the duration then bleeding out in 4 mins is shorter than hiding for 60.

    Measurable in game outcome that is skewed will lead to change quicker than going around saying "such and such ruined my fun!" If you do say hey this doesn't work then you gotta frame it as "Hey this doesn't work" not "if some does this they are a jerk" these are the two different things which is my point.

    One is an objective measure the other is a subjective opinion.

    Until then much like other broken tactics that don't break any game rules you might face it in game. How you choose to react to that fact is often what dictates how legitimate your opinion is when it comes to game design.

  • pseudechis
    pseudechis Member Posts: 3,904

    Stop assuming the worst as people's motivation.

    Its just as bad a habit and as I have said to you before clouds your objectivity.

  • Archol123
    Archol123 Member Posts: 4,634

    You effectively cannot progress the game in any reasonable way, that's the whole issue of this and why the deva want to change skull merchant... It is already openly frames as problematic and everyone knows that.

    Back when locker saves were still a thing you had something similar, the killer could do nothing but grab them out of the locker until the flashlight was empty, that was basically holding him hostage, as he had no other option to progress the game similar to sm 3gen..

    Also the die trying is what happens most of the time because they either DC or give up bc it is basically impossible to break without coms.

    WE don't need to go around and shout anything, the deva already said it s problematic and needs change, it is fairly obvious that people are annoyed by it and if you still do it they will hate you for that's fair... We could as well say it is allowed to do but it is fairly obvious that people will call you out for it which is fair and also allowed.

  • pseudechis
    pseudechis Member Posts: 3,904

    Ah you are also resting on your assumptions.

    I've never said its not a bad design and I've never had a go at anyone who had a logical take on "this is bad and why"

    But its a legit game strategy and people are going to play it if they can. So until it gets patched out we should expect to face it and try and find ways to beat it.

    Now does that make the people who play it terrible people in reality? No it doesn't.

    But folks like you are hell bent on labeling the motivation of such players as purely malicious and out to ruin the fun.

    Taking this moralistic stance and then using it to justify attacking each other online over something as trivial as a game.

    That's incredibly unpleasant and breeds the kind of player toxicity that DBD is known for.

    Stop assuming a player's motivation is some form of purposeful malicious attack on your fun. Such assumptions are clouding your judgement and likely making you more reactionary over a game.

    If you don't agree with this assessment of your post, then lets highlight the fact that you've assumed my motivation here, that I'm complacent about bad design, I'm not but I know the difference between attacking game design and attacking other players for no good reason.

    Ask yourself which are you doing?

  • pseudechis
    pseudechis Member Posts: 3,904

    I'm aware of this and have said it myself to some extent so if the devs are aware ask yourself am I attacking the bad design or am I attacking other players over it when I post about it?

    I'm not arguing in favor of 3 gen SM, it is bad design. But you can try and play it out or you can sit around an whine about it till its patched out. What will you choose?

    The OP felt the need to try and justify why the enjoy 3-gen SM, my point has always been they don't need to justify why they play or enjoy it because its a legit in game thing and until its patched out some people are gonna play and enjoy it and that doesn't make them bad people.

    The concept of not hating on each other over game mechanics is really triggering to some people.

    I gotta ask is this because they spend their day hating on each other over game mechanics and are trying their best not to feel ridiculous or petty about it, when in reality its nothing but ridiculous and petty.

  • pseudechis
    pseudechis Member Posts: 3,904

    Is that genuinely the case because I've been eventually downed and bled out or hooked by every one of them that I've faced. Which only equates to about 4 times online.

    So I see it very rarely and when trying to break the 3 gen I died each time and moved on.

    Now if you are stuck in game with someone whom doesn't even swing at you and just walks around in circles kicking gens report that person they are stalling the game.

    Doesn't sound to me like that is the motivation of the OP though.

    So are we going to just assume all players who try 3-gen SM are out to stall the game and maliciously ruin your fun?

    Or do you just assume that at game start and then quit having never really verified if they are by trying to play it out?

    The topic I'm discussing is players making assumptions and how they act in game and treat each other outside game on the basis of those assumptions, the catalyst for this could be anything it just happens to be 3-gen SM in this circumstance.

    It's relevant because the OP made a whole thread explaining why they enjoy playing 3-gen SM and I don't really see any malicious intent in their explanation, but that didn't stop the drooling masses from getting all riled up about it.

  • Archol123
    Archol123 Member Posts: 4,634

    Yeah and the explanation was they like a chill game and still win with little to no effort, with basically no knowledge of the game or game mechanic and basically also regardless of the other sides imput, which makes it so the other side could basically be replaced by bots, which many people already suggested... If you want good chases you need players because the bots aren't good and cannot be mind gamed, if you just wanna kick gens for an hour you don't need players.

  • Archol123
    Archol123 Member Posts: 4,634

    It is more over specific playstyle not game mechanics... It is not that the bleeding out exists and that you don't get slugged for eternity but you can still get annoyed by players bleeding you out for four minutes and call them out for it, same with 3 genning skull merchant, there is nothing wrong with it. People telling you how they felt after playing against you should at least be one part of why post game chat even exists.

    You can also try to break a brick wall with your head, has the same chances as breaking a 3gen against sm as soloq...

  • pseudechis
    pseudechis Member Posts: 3,904

    Typical to just go for the "they are a toxic person ignore them" rather than engage with the topic.

    The topic is does your assumptions about other players motivation affect your ability to interact with them in a civil manner?

    Nothing in this game is so bad, even completely broken mechanics, that players can justify being so critical, to the point of abusive in some cases, of each other outside of game. Leading to players feeling the need to post justifications for way they may play.

    Ask yourselves how often does my preconceived notion of "good play" influence my opinions and assumptions about other players and lead to me having a negative attitude toward them as a person outside game?

    That's the foundation of player toxicity, before we even get to mechanics.

  • pseudechis
    pseudechis Member Posts: 3,904

    Sure there is a lot about this game that can confound and annoy, there is plenty about it I find annoying and you can say hey I found that really annoying in post game and ask someone why.

    But if their answer is its strong and I had fun, then you gotta roll with it. What some people find fun really pisses me off but I don't get to dictate what's fun.

    When facing something I find unfun I can either do my best to play it out and move on or spend my time being angry and attack other players about it. Which do you think is the most productive way to play?

    This opinion of gameplay stands because simply It's only a game, even if you die in game to a really unfair mechanic you are still gonna be alive and well at the end. There is virtually no concrete consequences as a result of how someone plays.

    So if someone wants to make believe they are a big scary monster and play it as such I'll play along because that's what make believe is.

    So critique a broken mechanic by all means, that's how change happens, but if you think there is some kind of moralistic mission to calling out someone who uses it, then sure do that if you like, but get ready for your efforts to not matter because the reality is they don't.

  • crogers271
    crogers271 Member Posts: 1,789

    But its a legit game strategy and people are going to play it if they can. So until it gets patched out we should expect to face it and try and find ways to beat it.

    People have been using playgrounds, so I'll go with kids as an example.

    If a group of children have P.E. class and the gym teacher lays out the game and everyone is excited to play it, but he then adds on a rule, "If Jimmy says 'I win', the game immediately ends, he gets ice cream, and everyone else has to do homework."

    If Jimmy says 'I win', he's a jerk.

    If he manages to not say that, he's an honorable lad.

    Sure, the main mistake here is on the teacher who even put such an absurd situation into the game, but that doesn't mean those playing the game have lost agency.

    Now does that make the people who play it terrible people in reality? No it doesn't.

    Taking this moralistic stance and then using it to justify attacking each other online over something as trivial as a game.

    If I was playing a board game with people and I intentionally slowed it down, I'd be a jerk.

    If I checked out my groceries' really slow even though there's a line, I'd be a jerk.

    If in any 'real world' situation I behaved in a manner that I could reasonably expect would make others miserable and unhappy, I'd be a jerk.

    What makes a video game different? You might not be able to see them, but those are very really people also playing.

  • StrangeGuy
    StrangeGuy Member Posts: 48

    I have no problem with the Chess Merchant for two reasons:

    1. I see her very rarely. 

    2. If she plays in a 3 gen defence way and refuses to chase survivors, I demonstratively repair one of these 3 gens until I die. Even 4 minutes on the ground is faster than trying to repair gens for 60 minutes. 

    OP literally wrote: "Of course its unfun to face, but just being able to relax and have fun (while admittedly playing in an unfun way) is actually quite nice."

    Also they ignored questions about why they don't play against bots 🙈

    So people assume the worst.

    IMO, OP doesn't want to make excuses for their play style. Probably, this appears to be a bait, similar to the thread about the best build for tunneling.

  • pseudechis
    pseudechis Member Posts: 3,904

    Hypotheticals can be fun but when using them as examples of motivation in choice tests for social isolation, context matters. Trust me I do that for a living.

    In DBD loss of agency is part of the game, it should expected.

    The fact that loss of agency is built into the game means that taking advantage of loss of agency is part of the game. So if a player doesn't find loss of agency fun then DBD may not be the game for them because loss of agency is the very goal of one side.

    Slug, hook, dead all represent loss of agency.

    Killers don't tend to lose agency so again if loss of agency is the problem then killer is the role that should be played.

    Capitalizing on the mechanic of loss of agency as the game expects is not inherently being a jerk.

    This is where your child example falls apart because it requires the child to have complete understanding of the social construct of the scenario and children often lacking that will make the decision that best benefits them in the moment.

    So Jimmy will take the ice cream and win but that doesn't make him a jerk, because he was offered a loaded choice to begin with. This why I don't do hypotheticals with real world contexts for in game events, the rationale for the answer doesn't stack up outside of the most rudimentary desire to make a point. Making it a weak way to illustrate the point.

    Can player's leverage the lack of agency that DBD provides to achieve victory? In the context of DBD yes they can.

    Should they? sure if they want to, because the mechanics of the game and achievements are built around that concept.

    "If I was playing a board game with people and I intentionally slowed it down, I'd be a jerk", Really even if the goal of one side was to stall the game, is every killer who runs a gen slow down build a jerk? Healing slowdown build are jerks?

    The whole process of the killer game is stalling for time, guess that means anyone who plays killer is just a jerk by your given example. Again CONTEXT.

    So back to the topic there is a strong way to stall the game right now, and it's too strong. Using it is a very good idea if you want to stall things and have as much time as possible to achieve your goals.

    It is not inherently malicious, but if you immediately classify anyone who tries it as a jerk out to ruin your fun, because in a different real world context it would be seen as jerk behaviour, then basically everyone is a jerk and your conclusion is as flawed as your assumptions.

  • pseudechis
    pseudechis Member Posts: 3,904
    edited September 2023

    Maybe, but nothing about the OP's post strikes me as a malicious attempt to ruin people's game. If it is bait then kudos to the OP because I think it generated some pretty interesting discussion.

    I tried to answer the why wouldn't they just play bots and I got a bunch of folks jumping on me trying to justify their skewed assumptions with "everyone who doesn't is a jerk being their whole argument". I don't blame the OP for avoiding it given how reactionary this crowd is.

    There are lots of things that people find unfun in DBD, the OP acknowledges this can be one. While it would be nice for everyone to consider each others sense of fun and try to make the game fun for all, typically that ends up undermining the game in other ways.

    Often I find trying to be considerate and fun in game ends up being 'farmy' and takes all the excitement out of the game. Not bad from time to time but the best games of DBD are hard fought and vicious. I find that fun.

    Someone else may find that that idea unfun. They are allowed to have that opinion of the game and doing so makes neither of us a jerk or bad person etc etc.

    People do tend to assume the worst. I think they want people whom play in a manner they don't like to be seen as malicious jerks. This aids them in demanding the game play they want.

    I'm sure a lot of it is inherently selfishly motivated and dressed up as an altruism. "I don't like this, change it, because anyone who does what I don't like is a jerk, and jerks are bad, so I'm good". I get the game I want and I get self validation its win-win for me.

    1 and 2 yep its what I've always said, pretty rare and I try to play it out live or die. That's all you can do in game till BHVR make changes, no hard feelings.

    I think its busted and needs changing but I don't immediately think anyone who chooses to play it is inherently some jerk out to ruin my fun.

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