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Feelings on Sadako as a Main

HOMOGRIMOIRE
HOMOGRIMOIRE Member Posts: 45
edited September 2023 in Feedback and Suggestions

TDLR: Sadako is less fun to play. Chase playstyle has been nerfed because Reiko's watch was nerfed, new TV and tape mechanics make it so Sadako can projects less to areas of interest and apply less condemn, meaning the only way to take advantage of a survivor holding a tape is to basically tunnel them. Her addon pass has also left things to be desired with little change to her addon viability and variety. Furthermore, condemn is as much of an issue as before, oppressive with the right build and near negligible otherwise.


So, some background, I loved playing Sadako before her rework, she was simple, fun, and she felt rewarding to play. I planned on getting her to p100 after I p100'd David. Of course she wasn't the strongest killer by any means, but she was fun to play. This difficulty is part of what made her fun to me. And whether a combination of the meta or her reworked power, I just haven't been having as much fun as I used to on her.

First, the nerf to reiko's watch makes playing chase Sadako a lot harder. I know the change only effectively reduced post-manifestation invis by a fraction of a second, but I can feel it hard. It was actually a huge nerf. I used to be able to mindgame even shack with it. And now, virtually every loop with the exception of filler loops are harder to mindgame and get hits at. It's almost not even worth running anymore. It kinda sucks when an addon that encourages chasing, the part of the gameplay everyone actually likes, is nerfed and thus incentivizes less engaging playstyles.

Second, in a similar vein, her add on pass left things to be desired. Her addons prior to the rework were average, Sadako only having a select number of them be viable, and some having niche synergy with certain perks, but that is typical. The only things changed were things nerfed, and things that had to be changed because they no longer fit her current power mechanics. There was a buff to distorted photo to reveal aura, but after some playtesting, its value is still few and far between. Tape editing deck enables that pseudo-tunneling right at the beginning, telephone is unchanged and a boring if somewhat effective addon, and VCR only really has practical use with DMS. Mother's comb again enables pseudo tunneling for the condemn kill. Bloody fingernail remains unchanged, though a decent effect regardless. Rickety pinwheel, plus sea soaked cloth as they both inflict a status if within a power TV, are nerfed thanks to survivors taking tapes more often. Ring drawing's nerf I let slide, it was needed. Clump of hair and Yoichi's fishing net will come into play very rarely. [Though, i like the idea of Yoichi's fishing net, condemn inflicting a status once a threshold is reached, the execution just fell short. 4 stacks is a bit hard to reach with how easy it is to keep condemn low, all for the weakest negative status in the game.] Well stone and cabin sign reduce TV cooldowns, which is fine, neither here nor there but paling in comparison to other addons. Mother's mirror's effect is more of a meme addon than videotape copy. Any player who has put in a minimal amount of time into Sadako will find it useless. Old newspaper has thankfully went unnerfed. Iri video tape is still very good, and remote control was nerfed, to the point where it is never really considered for any build like it was before. So, the only really viable add ons are iri tape, (nerfed and debatably is no longer viable) reiko's watch, old newspaper, (nerfed but rightfully so) ring drawing, bloody fingernail, and the one new addition to viable sadako addons: mother's comb. So effectively, there was one fair nerf, one questionable nerf, and one arguably unhealthy addition to the roster of viable addons.

Third, TVs. Pre-rework TVs had longer cooldown across the board, meaning you needed to be smart with projecting. Survivors could shut down TVs, but the cooldown was significantly lower than TV projection cooldown. Survivors could deny you a pat of your power, but the penalty wasn't as great as using it. There was strategy to taking tapes. You could guarantee denying a projection during a crucial time, but know that the TV would be online sooner, or let her project, turn off the TV longer, and have a team mate or yourself return to the TV knowing it will be off for longer. There was nuance to it. Now, a survivor can just mindlessly take a tape from anywhere and return it anywhere to deny two TVs of their choosing while also denying projection to those TVs longer. Current projection TV cooldown with reworked condemn just incentives projecting mindlessly, which is hardly fun or skillful even though it is strong. There's no reason for the whole team to just take tapes and either hold them or turn off other TVs. And the only way you can capitalize off that is if you basically tunnel someone, which :/ She's easier and more clear-cut to counter, which just makes her weaker than before too. And with survivors doing TVs more, you have a vital part of your power a lot less, and the slowdown from it isn't even anything noticeable because tapes can be dropped off at any TV, even one that's like 16 meters away, that's only 4-8 slowdown, if at all. It's nothing compared to wesker or nemesis who require survivors to go out of their way for vaccines, or pig who now has consistent slowdown with her traps. 3 genning is more incentivized with projection being nerfed due to new tape mechanics. She won't have the map pressure to not have to resort to one if she can't use her projection to where she wants if survivors take tapes, which they will. The cooldown on projection only adds onto this woe. 10 seconds is actually not that bad, I'll give it that, but it is a restriction none the less.

Lastly condemn. Condemn is tricky, i'll concede that. An instant kill is something you have to tread carefully with. Pre-rework, it was on the weaker side, relying on certain addons and a certain, unfun playstyle to even get it. At first upon the new changes, it seemed to strong. And now that people have adjusted, it is too weak. New Tape mechanics are simply too forgiving. The main draw of new Sadako was that condemn should be occurring more frequently. And now that survivors had adjusted, that isn't the case anymore, unless you focus a survivor, which isn't all too different than pre-rework Sadako with a condemn build. So, if anything, condemn also feels both stronger and weaker than before. Though, this is also in part to things like chemical trap, made for this, and hope's uptick in usage to pair with it, and buckle up that make it more difficult to down a condemned survivor despite Sadako's ability to ignore body blocking.

So overall, Sadako's rework has disappointed me, just as I thought it would when I first read the ptb patch notes for it. She's stronger than before, and weaker as well. (Though mostly weaker unlike the killers who will be mentioned next.) It aligns with newer killer powers, knight has his oppressive guards, but if they're not available for whatever reason, he's just a standard m1 killer. Singularity has his powerful biopods and slipstream, but is just your standard m1 killer if an emp is used. Xenomorph has an oppressive tail attack, a smaller TR and an unusual and low movement stance, but once knocked out of runner mode with a turret, is just an m1 killer. Sadako, like them, feels like she either has a power or no power at all. Invisibility is nerfed with reiko's watch, and is hardly enough to be a competent part of a power without it. Sadako can project more often than before, but it feels like she's actually projecting less thanks to new Tape mechanics. With indirectly weaker invis and less access to projecting to exactly where she wants, Sadako is still mostly just your standard m1 killer, just a bit harder to spot and a smaller TR.

I know Sadako was hardly what any one would consider a popular killer, so most probably don't care about how it feels to play her now compared to then. Which is fair. Not every killer is gonna have a sizable playerbase. So, I know I'm part of a small group of people that cares about this. So, if you are someone that cares and sees this, what do you think? Has Sadako's rework satisfied you? I'd like to hear how it has or hasn't. And if it hasn't, maybe we all can work together to change Sadako into something more fun.

Post edited by EQWashu on

Comments

  • hailxsatanxeveryxday
    hailxsatanxeveryxday Member Posts: 913
    edited September 2023

    I was one of the biggest detractors of Sadako's changes before I got them in my own hands, but I've changed my mind. They sounded horrible on paper, but my kill rate with Sadako is nuts.

    Her playstyle has definitely changed completely. Contrary to what a lot of people here said after watching some YouTube video (most people here seem to get their opinions on things from YouTube), her condermned playstyle was not at all strong before her rework, and her high kill rate was because of people taking advantage of her mobility and playing her as an M1 killer around loops. Hit and run was also a terrible idea with her, despite the fact that you heard everyone saying she was a "hit-and-run killer". I would stack slowdown perks (Pop/CoB/Eruption/PR, back before CoB was nerfed) and use her power to proxy camp. It worked well, but the newly increased TV cooldown completely destroyed that playstyle.

    Now, my main strategy is to just spam condemned all over the map as quickly as I can, which, when combined with four slowdown perks, Iri Videotape, and Ring Drawing, means survivors are either dying right off the bat, or they're spending too much time focusing on tapes to get gens done as quickly as I can regress them.

    And, on the contrary, I don't know which aura perk you're referring to, but my secondary build with her is to run her Remote Control and Distorted Video with a mixed aura reading/anti-chase build (Lethal Pursuer/BBQ/STBFL/Bamboozle), and I get a lot of value out of them.

    The thing about the new condemned mechanic is that, yeah, it can be very forgiving if you're not running Iri Videotape, but it also causes a fair amount of slowdown overall, and it only takes one person to fail to keep it under control to doom the whole team. If somebody dies at four gens left because that one person screwed up, that's it. gg. Nothing else the rest of them can really do unless you screw up and they all get incredibly lucky.

    And it seems like there's always one.

  • HOMOGRIMOIRE
    HOMOGRIMOIRE Member Posts: 45

    Yeah... I don't think anyone that actually played her, except for like, one or two people, was excited or looking forward to her rework. Which is like, kinda sad. You'd think the devs would see her existing player base be vocally against it and maybe think twice or hold off on the rework. Right now, I'm still trying to find a build i like for my play style to try and make her work, but it's not looking good so far :(

  • HOMOGRIMOIRE
    HOMOGRIMOIRE Member Posts: 45

    Yeah, you and I played her a lot differently. Personally, I found success in playing hit and run with her, pre-rework. I mostly ran reiko's watch and old newspaper to enhance my chase and get easier surprise hits, and used nurses, sloppy, and pentimento + shattered hope when CoH was relevant. I'm not really a fan of using a lot of gen slowdown. I don't like going against it, so I don't use 4 gen slowdown. For that short period between her rework and the major CoH nerf, i switched pentimento + shattered for fearmonger + slowdown. Still good. Hit and run with her isn't exactly easy, I'll admit, but I liked that challenge, that made her fun to me. Though, using TVs to be able to spread condemn as a bit of a threat, and get into a chase quick/get a quick hit was something I did, that you can't do as much because survivors are more incentivized to get tapes and they put TVs on a longer cooldown.

    The thing is, I'm not a fan of just going to spread condemn, i never was. That playstyle for her didn't interest me. Hit and run + using invisibility to mindgame chases was more fun and engaging to me. And now they've leaned into that condemn focus playstyle. Sadako might be very strong with the right build now, but strong doesn't equal to fun for me. Sure, i could get someone out at 4 gens, but by that point, it'll be a dull game, i can do that with any other high tier killer. And once a survivor goes at 4 gens, survivors usually give up. It's not much of a game, at least in my experience.

    I guess the thing is that she's not really a macro character anymore. If you get a kill at 4 gens, even 3, you don't really have to worry about the macro of a game. Just the micro, focusing on killing that first person. The playstyle they're pushing onto us with her changes just doesn't appeal to me. I know this doesn't make too much sense since condemn focused playstyles are different from pretty much any other playstyle a killer can use, but she just has this generic feel to her now. My current build on her is a totem one with ruin, pentimento, plaything, and a flex slot, usually mindbreaker. Still messing around with add-ons tho, and experimenting w/ rapid brutality + more chase perks rn, but I'm still just messing around. Still, it's a generic build that'll work on any killer. But, who knows, maybe the devs will hear and make some changes again to her.

  • Chocolate_Cosmos
    Chocolate_Cosmos Member Posts: 5,735

    I was big hater of new sadako rework on PTB, because I thought it was overall a nerf.

    However, after they buffed her and testing it better than just on PTB where everyone was mememing with Nic and trolling the matches, she is very deadly. She went from being the worst to A tier killer imo which is awesome.

    They made her more unique and more fun to play for me honestly. There is no other killer that can ignore hooks and go full on her condement manegement with extra important side quest for Survivors to keep up or they will die.

    She is the only Killer that has bad chase (basic M1 for the most part) but it's now balanced because her kit is very strong by occuping and being treath passively to all other Survivors. Only Killer in the game that plays differently and can ignore hooks entirely. She is weak in chase but still strong because her power isn't chase, it's the condement.

    I think I like her now. They finaly managed to make a Killer strong without needing to have strong anti-loop or chase power.

  • radiantHero23
    radiantHero23 Member Posts: 4,228

    You can make her work really fast. I just find the new Sadako boring. Condemnig players is severely less skillfull and just a matter of spamming your power and predicting survivor movement a bit. Most groups cant handle dealing with tapes well, making an early mori very likely to happen. The mini mori was once a special achievement in a nmatch for clever playing (not with iri tape). I played without iri tape and got many moris with good strategy and planning in every match. It felt rewarding. Sadako right now is just watered down so that all players without much of the before needed skill can achieve what the few players did before.

    I personally still hold a grudge against bhvr that they didnt listen to the feedback and just pushed it live. I refuse to give ptb feedback since then and as i said very rarely play her anymore. I had her at p66 at the time of the rework and shes still p66. Just extremely sad.

    Im back to being a full out Pig main.

  • rvzrvzrvz
    rvzrvzrvz Member Posts: 940

    Exactly this, spam tp as much as you can every 10 seconds, hit an m1 here and there and you're guaranteed to win most games in automatic mode, if you want winrate closer to 100% just iri tape and stack 4 slowdowns even comp teams will struggle against that

    I don't care what anyone says she's actually S tier because she's so easy to play relative to her strength.. killers like nurse and blight you can't just play 1-2 games with them and have this kind of results from the get go, awful rework

  • radiantHero23
    radiantHero23 Member Posts: 4,228
    edited September 2023

    That's a bit much dont you think?

    I mained old Sadako and became 3-4th in public leader boards. I also played new sadako a bunch. Against good teams she still struggles because her chase is so bad. I still dont get why it got nerfed.

    Comp teams still destroy almost every killer in the game, including her.

    You underestimate what they can do.

    Last but not least, a killer does not have to be hard to be strong. Some people don't want a hard killer to win matches (Chess merchent).

    Last but not least: nurse is super easy... I played like 4 games. First one I struggled hard. Second one I got good hits. Third one I hit most blinks. Fourth game I got a 4k at 3 gens left. My survivors where not bad. Nurse just has extremely little counterplay if she hits her blinks without much guessing.

    Nurse is probably the closest thing to a win card there is for killers in a public setting.

    Post edited by EQWashu on
  • oreoslurpee
    oreoslurpee Member Posts: 288

    i, as many other sadako mains, spoke out immediately after reading the PTB patch notes. even OPW spoke out, even if he changed his mind later on. the rework shifted her power from being lore accurate to being not accurate at all and just made her become a HUGE pubstomper for new players, and is just VERY weak against good players. the only good change that came out of this was the TV cooldown buffs, she ALWAYS needed the cooldown buffs because it literally punished you for using your power. the tapes are not at all cursed and are instead just a protection shield for survivors to use, instead of placing a literal curse on the survivor. before her rework, the cursed tapes actually were movie accurate to sadako as a character as it takes 7 days to make you condemned for sadako. the current sadako is nowhere NEAR that.

    all sadako needed pre-rework was the current TV cooldowns, basekit iri tape (A nerfed version of it, maybe 2 TVs turn on after 5s of hitting a survivor post projectioning), her lullaby should be removed, post projection movement is increased by 25% but bloody nails is nerfed to 25% to compensate (would still be the old 50% numberwise), and reikos watch & old newspaper should both be basekit but reikos watch should be a 50% basekit instead of the current 33%. also make the black outline on the HUD show up after 30 seconds of the match starting, unless you have telephone equipped.

    literally this was all she needed, she took skill and all the rework did was dumb her gameplay down into being a mindless TV spammer. before the rework she had to actually THINK about where to teleport to, and she felt very fun to play if you knew how to use her properly & effectively. the rework only feels good if your against bad players.

  • rvzrvzrvz
    rvzrvzrvz Member Posts: 940
    edited September 2023

    yeah disagree on everything, her stats will says it all she will get nerfed at some point it's not a if but when, she's way too effective against average survivors (vast majority), nurse always had somewhat low killrate because she's not that easy

    Post edited by EQWashu on
  • radiantHero23
    radiantHero23 Member Posts: 4,228
    edited September 2023

    Nurse has a low kill rate because players hop on her and think she's the best.

    While she is the best playing her well needs more understanding of the game rather than her.

    Survivor pathing and Mindgames are the core mechanics necessary to be good at nurse. Mechanically it's the same as pinhead. Not really that hard if you play it for more than 3 matches.

    I main Pig. A killer that teaches you a lot about survivor pathing and Mindgames. I also like to play pinhead in my regular rotation. Therefore nurse was not that hard for me to pick up.

    Nurse also has a low official kill rate because she is notoriously hard to play on console. BHVR stats include console players as well.

    Sadako is definitely not hard to play. But you would be baffled to what a real comp team would play like.

    She's good, but not THAT good.

    Post edited by EQWashu on
  • HOMOGRIMOIRE
    HOMOGRIMOIRE Member Posts: 45

    Oh yeah, she was definitely nerfed on ptb. Tapes were heavily in the survivors favor until they changed them into what they are on live, and that was really all it took to make her strong. Though now, without condemn focused add-ons, she is still weaker than before. People know how to play against her and manage condemn and tapes now. If you're going against a swf with even just slightly competent players, you only got a chance of winning if you bring condemn focused add-ons, which is boring for her gameplay diversity. She's strong, yes, but only really against soloq. At least with old Sadako, any play style that wasn't condemn focused didn't really care if you went against a swf or not. So now that her whole power focuses on condemn, she's always near powerless against swfs/a decent team, and op against solo q/bad players.

    Though, I can respect you opinion. If you find her fun, good for you, I just don't anymore :/

  • HOMOGRIMOIRE
    HOMOGRIMOIRE Member Posts: 45

    No, yeah, I'm sure her stats point to her being strong, but that's because she's really good against solo q and any swf with a blow average skill level. A majority of players. Against them, spamming tp is braindead yet effective. There's a reason condemn builds were not fun to go against or engaging to play with, at least for me, and now that they've made that her power, she's just not fun for me.

    However, she's weak against swfs/competent players, still an unignorable portion of the player base. At least with old Sadako, if you didn't care about condemn, you didn't really care as much of you went against a swf or not. There wasn't a whole lot more they could to than a soloq team could. They could be smarter with taking tapes, but that wasn't doing a whole lot, especially compared to now. Going against a swf is usually harder because they're coordinated and have comms, but that's a general thing not unique to old Sadako.

    TDLR: She's stronger against the general player base, but a whole lot weaker against swfs and more skilled players, which wasn't a problem with old Sadako

  • radiantHero23
    radiantHero23 Member Posts: 4,228

    That's killers with side objectives in general. I just want to mention Pinhead and Pig here, who are always performing really well according to bhvr statistics.

  • rvzrvzrvz
    rvzrvzrvz Member Posts: 940
    edited September 2023

    But why do you think that nerfing Pig or Wraith was higher priority than some stronger killers like nurse/ blight/spirit/plague/artist...?

    both of them were C tier in everyone's tier list, BHVR is looking at stats if something is both easy to play and very effective against average survivors then it's probably a problem, you can bet on it

    I don't even think she's as bad as you claim against better teams you can see it on killer main streams or youtube, you can spam TP and hit some m1s against good players it's not hard, almost always 1 player out of 4 is going to fail to manage condemn and then it's a free win, and don't get me started on the slugging sloppy-knockout playstyle, literally unbeatable for solo Q

  • HOMOGRIMOIRE
    HOMOGRIMOIRE Member Posts: 45

    True, but I feel like it's the worst for Sadako. Pinhead can at least get the box himself and has his chains for chase, which are not that bad. Pig's dash can be made competent with add-ons, and her traps don't require as much teamplay to get off

  • HOMOGRIMOIRE
    HOMOGRIMOIRE Member Posts: 45

    Honestly, yeah, she just needed some numbers buffs to be made decent, and bloody fingernail and iri tape basekit to a degree if at all. A buff to her base invis would give her a respectable and chase, bloody fingernail is just a good qol buff, and partial iri tape basekit would just improve her map pressure to be more in line with the strength of other TPs. She had a solid power, they just started weak with it. Now her power is just braindead and boring.

  • HOMOGRIMOIRE
    HOMOGRIMOIRE Member Posts: 45
    edited September 2023

    DbD's balance team is an enigma, there's no point in asking why anything tbh. But, of course she's good if you stack strong perks and the right add-ons. It's just that that play style isn't fun, to play against, and for me to play with. She's not bad, but at the higher mmrs or whatever, she's not that good either, so I guess we'll just have to disagree.

  • adaw0ng
    adaw0ng Member Posts: 715

    She feels exhausting to play now, and even more exhausting to verse her. I definitely enjoyed her more before the rework. I liked stealth builds with TV radius addons, but now they don’t work that well since tapes are too easy to use. Now I don’t enjoy playing as her nor against her.

  • Skitten56
    Skitten56 Member Posts: 383

    Well said. As you mention, winning games is less dependant on personal skill and more dependant on whether survivors know to hold tapes and if you can teleport every 10 seconds.

    Just like you I barely play her now. I mained her myself and played her the majority of the time I would play killer. Now I'm playing Artist and Pig to fill the void. However, I find myself playing the game less in general now. It is not fun when they completely change how a killer works and take all the skill and fun out of them. There is nothing enjoyable or skillful about tunneling a person out and pressing a button every 10 seconds. Unfortunately the rework makes this the only viable way to play her against good teams.

  • Skitten56
    Skitten56 Member Posts: 383

    100%, while she destroys soloq and the average player with ease to the point that it isn't even enjoyable, against skilled players and swf she is absolutely weaker than before. I used to play her as a mobility kill and could control the flow of the game with skilled macro play. That option is pretty much no longer available with the mobility nerfs and survivors ensuring many TVs are turned off all the time now. This leaves us with the dull and uninteresting strategy of tunneling people with tapes and teleporting every 10 seconds when they don't have one.

    The rework is just incredibly problematic and they should just revert the changes. While getting wins pre-rework may have been harder, at least they felt earned and was an expression of skill. It was fun and engaging gameplay compared to what we have now.

  • radiantHero23
    radiantHero23 Member Posts: 4,228

    I would love to see the rework reverted. I loved how she played before.

    Sadly after all the posts in Ptb feedback and post Ptb, I'm not very hopeful that it is even possible at this point. The Devs seem to be convinced that the way they reworked her is the correct way and that she is fine how she is now. Hence the lack of information on the mid chapter and no changes in the alien release.

    #bringbackSadako