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Unhook protections should persist within terror radius
Tunneling continues to be a problem in DBD despite all that has been done to mitigate it. Killers still do it which shows what has been done isn't enough. All they do now is wait out the unhook protections. They are so good at it now its as if they have it perfectly timed in their mind. I have always been of the opinion that tunneling is one of the most detrimental things in this game to the survivor experience. It needs to be addressed in a severe manner. So much so that killers would not even consider doing it.
I suggest having the unhook protections persist within the terror radius. The current system is easily countered and took no time for it to happen. If a killer decides to tunnel an unhooked survivor, they will deal with the unhook protections whether they want to or not. This is a very small change to a very big problem and needs much more than this to ultimately remove it from the game. When a survivor feels like they have little to no chance to even play the game for being hard focused by the killer, the desire to continue playing the game will go away. Tunneling cannot continue to be the norm of the survivor experience. The game needs fundamental change before ultimately the worst parts of it become a thing of the past. Until that time comes, changes can be made to open the path forward to that new experience.
Comments
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I don't think killers would be very happy about a survivor keeping their endurance effect as long as they run after the killer, which would also be made really easy with the haste effect.
Tbh I think the DS nerf should be reverted, killers started tunneling like crazy after they stopped being scared of it. At this point idc that it hurt weaker killers more than strong ones, that survivors would need to bring it all the time or that we're basically circling back to how things were prior the meta shake up. DS worked, bring it back.
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A change like the one I suggested would be a start but not the solution. This is a much bigger problem that has become increasingly harder to deal with because of how long it has happened in the game. We've been given several things over the years in an attempt to deal with tunneling which lets me know they see it as a problem that survivor mains don't want to deal with. Its going to take fundamental change ultimately, but like I said, this could open the path to a future DBD without tunneling.
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I feel this would be abuse a lot
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I guess some peeps are focusing on your solution of infinite protection while staying inside the terror radius not being well thought through, but you are adressing a valid point.
The meta shakeups and several deep mechanical changes of the past shook the players awake and forced them to play super efficient, right now we are at the situation were both, the survivor and the killer population at large at not only vaguely aware that splitting up on gens and 3-gen plus tunneling someone out asap are the strongest tactics, but they actively play that way. The genie is now out of the bottle and we won't be putting it bad by just saying "thats bad and we don't want DBD to be played like that".
Here is a possible way out:
1) give the killer old BBQs BP bonus at basekit, but only increase the counter for each survivor hooked while everyone is still in the game. This gives the killer a side objective besides tunneling someone ASAP.
2) give the killer a mini BBQ that shows them a single survivor that hasn't been hooked yet, after hooking a survivor, thus peeling them away from the hooks and sending them after someone fresh.
3) give the survivors some kind of debuff upon being hooked, but only as long as everyone is alive. Basically, don't make the killer sabotaging themselves and shooting themselves in the foot by keeping survivors alive, MAKE them WANT to keep everyone alive; at least until everyone has been hooked at least once.
3.5) maaaaaybe throw in a Grim Embrace like effect at basekit, once the forth survivor is hooked and anyone is still alive and block all gens for a while.
4) inverse the gen teamwork penalty, ie make gens go faster when survivors work on a gen together, but let gens repair slower when they split up. Splitting up would still be possible, but there wouldn't be 3 gens popping in union after the first chase, anymore. This whole thing would allow the game to go back to the good old times where it was "one survivor lost a chase and got hooked" - "a gen gets done" - "another survivor gets hooked" - "another gen gets done" - "the playing field shrinks ... uhhhh ... things get spicy now!!!1", instead of the modern "the first chase ends, 3 gens pop".
5) give all remaining survivors action speed bonuses for each dead teammate and 30s of undetectable. The killer could tunnel someone out, but this would strengthen the remaining survivors and rob the killer of all the Entities debuffs on the survivors and slim down their BP gains severely.
6) each month nerf the 5 most used perks in some numerical way, while buffing the 5 least played perks on both sides. Next month the last month changed perks wont count for the next round of nerfs/buffs. Thus we would get a living meta that ever evolves, with meta perks falling out of favor, old favorites coming back and new fun perks becoming suddenly eligible, until they are overplayed.
6.5) (a bit controversial) make only one OG chapter and one Licensed chapter per year plus one Community contest chapter. Reserve the last quarter of the year for game health.
In essence, we want to somehow give the killer a reason to go for more hooks and not tunnel someone out asap, while also give survivors a reason to not split up on gens and be out of the exit gates in 4mins. And we won't be reaching that goal by only aplying the stick in abundance, we also need some carots on both sides that promote the behaviour that lead to more fun games on both sides.
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Maybe you should play a killer into higher MMR. Feel how it is to try to do something about the insane completion speed, realize how silly the made-up terminology of "tunneling" actually is, and then just drop it completely.
If you want further protection from "tunneling," then the maximum potential gen completion speed has to be reduced by a fair amount.
Because I'll tell you this right now: You are not about to run around with all kinds of plot armor to guard your feelings while the killer is just screwed.
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Wesker Distressing builds would disagree
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The problem with tunneling is the game encourages it with it being about kills and not hooks while also having it where 4 survivors alive is too strong but 3 are weak. Giving survivors base kit ways to deal with tunneling will result in players abusing the mechanic so the logical way to reduce the amount of tunneling would be nerfing survivors when all 4 are up but buffing them when one is removed.
How something like this could work is when you hook a survivor you remove progress on a gen and when a survivor dies the mechanic is turned off and remaining survivors now get a repair speed bonus.
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Even better if it is midwich lol
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Killers are not allowed to play effectively eh
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"My idea definitely isn't poorly thought out or extremely shortsighted, you definitely disagree with me for personal reasons." 🙄
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This isn't about playing effectively. The entire purpose of the unhook protections was to deal specifically with tunneling killers. It took them less than a week to play around it and make the change ineffective if they so choose to tunnel. The norm now has turned into the killer doing a mental countdown before attacking the survivor again so they don't get the speed boost for having endurance active. Its really come down to that unless you have a great loop nearby and are able to run the killer the unhook protections didn't really protect you. Also just to be clear, the killers who do hit an unhooked survivor right after an unhook but do not continue chase with them is perfectly fine. They're just trying to buy a little more time while the unhooked survivor recovers from mending.
My suggestion is only meant to discourage tunneling. If the killer knows that they will have to deal with unhook protections no matter what it may mitigate a lot of the tunneling. I know it won't make the problem go away because there are killers who still tunnel even after hitting through the unhook protections. However the problem of killers waiting out the unhook protections has become the norm now, so this is by no means a solution to the problem. Tunneling has to be addressed in a more severe manner so that killers will see no reward in doing it. My hope is that one day tunneling, among other things, will be a thing in the past in DBD and the game will have an entirely new feel to the overall playstyle both killers and survivors use.
Post edited by EQWashu on2 -
My suggestions are just what I think should be a natural part of the game. I don't want an "easy mode." I want fairness. I know that is defined differently for everyone which is what this forum is for so ideas can be considered for future changes. I only want to see DBD be a game where camping, tunneling and slugging do not exist. For that to happen, the game will need to fundamentally change. Not more perks, but change to the overall way the game plays. Not even this suggestion is the answer, but it is a start in the right direction in my opinion.
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Thats unnecessary. 10s of basekit BT guarantees you can reach any loop within 44m. Thats plenty of protection; basekit OTR is going way too far.
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Whats unnecessary is tunneling, and your argument basically defends it. This is not a suggestion I made to make tunneling more tolerable. The idea is to discourage tunneling entirely to which much more is needed than just what I suggested.
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The endurance off hook is just meant to give you a chance to make it to a tile. It has never been about preventing the killer was going after you.
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Tunneling is only bad when its hard tunneling early into the game. Its completely fine to use it when theres like 1 gen left and everyones alive; you just arent getting multiple kills without tunneling in that scenario. So making tunneling take upwards of 40s at base would just guarantee that match is a loss for you.
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The basekit protection on getting unhooked was to give a player a chance to get to a pallet, vault etc. Not to allow the survivor to remain in the terror radius of the killer and be untouchable. We've all seen what happened with old DS, where survivors would sit on a gen in front of the killer or do anything, knowing that they couldn't be hooked - definitely not an ideal scenario. The same would be with this - there's also the Undectable status to factor in there.
I think the current protection on the unhook does what it's intended to do, make running BT a non-necessary thing for survivors, and give them time to get to a safer area, whilst not making them invincible.
Tunneling is such a big topic, reasons of why players tunnel etc, that it cannot be solved (if it needs to be solved at all), by just increasing the basekit protection time, as that would then cause problems of it's own imo.
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Then how about make the protection buffs persist in chase rather than just being within the terror radius of the killer? If the killer doesn't immediately initiate a chase on the survivor right off the hook then they at least have a chance of losing the killer and the protections will wear off naturally. That way if the survivor is to keep those protection buffs they would have to stay in chase with the killer, which will then fall on them to keep it up. If the killer knows they have those buffs so long as they are in chase then the killer will have reason to end the chase and go after someone else. The problem here is that killers figured out how to counter this very fast. The idea behind all of this is to encourage killers to chase other survivors and discourage them from chasing someone right off a hook. Give the killer more reward for seeking out other survivors rather than hard focusing a single person the entire time. Also just to be clear I am not saying keep the protection buffs even if the killer lands an attack. I was simply suggesting having the buffs persist so long as you're in the terror radius of the killer until the survivor is attacked.
Nothing kills the vibe of this game faster than being tunneled out of a match, especially early in a match. The survivor experience has to be better than this. Tunneling is a big topic because it is a big problem.
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Tunneling is fine, both sides do toxic things that neither side like, tunneling is the most effective way to get killers and if killers continue to tunnel even after other survivors take enough hits for a down you think they’re gonna stop from endurance? And not only that but it’s not like every killer tunnels if you give survivors incredible anti tunneling kits survivors will abuse that even on killers that don’t tunnel
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If a killer wants to tunnel they will do it and no change you suggest or is made will fix it.
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Survivors cannot do anything to the killer that shifts the match in their favor as much as tunneling a survivor does. Tunneling is not "fine." You basically acknowledged it as toxic when you said "both sides do toxic things." That isn't the point of any of this. I don't want DBD to be a game of who can be more toxic, or for players to have to rely on toxic playstyles to make the game playable. Tunneling should in every way be discouraged. It shouldn't even be a thing where any killer feels they need to do to gain advantage or win. In my experience killers have tunneled when the match was already in their favor. This almost always happens from the start of the match when it does. I could go through my screenshot folder and find a hundred matches where there were 3-5 gens still left to do and half or more of the survivors eliminated due to tunneling. Those gens don't repair faster when a survivor gets eliminated but 2 survivors are expected to finish repairing 3-5 gens against a hard tunneling killer. The power and advantage difference between killers and survivors is too much.
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Problem is, even if such a change is implemented And that stay within chase and being protected forever in Terror Radius or not; it will instantly makes Tunneling more frequent as those survivors will instead want to be chase forever and forced the killer to instead kill you faster. Why, because you can be injured and put into mending state and another hook or two away from kill. Which meet one of the Killer's main goal is to kill... FYI to up, Tunneling is the most efficient way to kill, regardless if everyone dislikes it or not. It much more convenient to chase the same guy or two that already been hook, then it it to go for all 4 survivors and hook them at least once. If the killer has already loss 2-3 gens at the beginning of the first match, and only achieved one or two hooks; out of the 12 he has done; chances are... Some unlucky survivors is going to die by Tunneling. And also.. if you are the unlucky survivor whom is not good at being chase and looping; guess what; the killer see you as easy free kill and will do everything, including Tunneling to secure that kill; in order to have a chance to win by 4k.
So far, there is no real powerful basekit slowdown for killers, on gens/speeds; and there is less incentives to go for hooks more then kills; which is why Tunneling is more effectively then ever. I say add a secondary objective for survivors to do, so that Killer can have ample time to go for hooks more then kills. Right now, there is no changes that help killers win, beside map balancing and killer power's changes
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The more the reward for doing it is mitigated the less they will do it. It has to become detrimental to their progress. Likewise, the killer choosing to engage other survivors has to be rewarding and incentivized more than tunneling.
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True, but we have to be careful since some mechanics can be abused (like old ds before it switched off after doing an action, before that the survivor could get unhooked and just do a gen in your face).
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"Tunneling" has to become detrimental to killer progress while survivors keep the fast completion speed alongside an overabundance of resources?
Reality Check - Fun for you < What's fair in the grand scope. You need to acknowledge the entire thing.
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If you have a suggestion for killers in light of my suggestion by all means share it or make a thread about it. I'm not against things being added for killer players to make the game more enjoyable for them. I am against things that make the survivor experience miserable and tunneling is one of those things. Tunneling is not "fair in the grand scope." It isn't fair at all.
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Don't forget about gen rush by the survivor pack. tunneling and camping is the only way for a killer to counter this. I wrote about this in detail in my post
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Why Killers Are Always Running Out of Time
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The most effective way to deal with "gen rushing" is simply to patrol gens and not commit to extended chases. A killer eliminating a survivor fast is much more of a match changing thing in favor of the killer than 3 survivors completing 1 generator. Gens do not repair faster as survivors are eliminated. Survivors cannot do anything, including repair generators at any rate, in a way that turns the match in favor of them as much as tunneling does for the killer. Too often do matches end in hatch battles with only a couple gens completed.
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You're going to have to start chasing the survivor anyway, and in the meantime the other survivors in the pack will finish the generators very quickly. It's impossible not to get into chases. In any case, the survivor pack always has information about where the killer is and what he is doing. If only it were as simple as you say.....
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This isn't entirely true, even in SWF matches. I did a lot of SWF when my friends still played and despite our efforts many matches did not end well for us. We also had around 15,000 hours experience among all of us with some who had played since the beginning. This idea that survivors are just naturally "in the know" about whats going on all the time just isn't the case.
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- I wanted to say that yes I agree that tunneling at 5 gens is stupid however there are times when at three gens they are about to lose if everyone or maybe even 3 survivors are alive if other gens have much progress, but I’m not here to depend tunneling so
- You can’t give survivors an Anti-tunneling basekit because they would most likely abuse it which just leads to more toxicity, you can’t give survivors more speed when one dies because that cancels out the kill, putting the survivors in a position where no matter what happens most of the team is safe. This issue has way to many other issues that it may bring up with almost any change. Tunneling should be 100% discouraged and I do want to say I retract my comment saying there is nothing wrong with tunneling because there definitely is and I also thought this when I posted this comment, but the constant negativity both sides bring to the other is terrible. I promise a lot of people tunnel because either they are losing too much (which saying something like it’s a skill issue because if they are losing that much it’s an matchmaking problem) or because of the toxicity from the other side. People need to take control of themselves rather then starting constant meaningless fights which in term only make the game worse and worse.
- I more made that comment because of the amount of hate both sides through at each other when both sides have things that are stupid and need to be changed, in the grand scheme of things my comment probably won’t mean anything, the developers aren’t going to look at it and decide not to give anti-tunneling basekit because of my comment.
- Lastly I wanted to say although dealing with tunneling is very difficult something I think would help is removing the penalty from DC’s, people already die on hook or still DC with the penalty are there are many reasons to DC (and although this change could also be bad in a lot do ways such as survivors not letting killers play a game for a match with them because of them winning or a small thing they did, or if the penalty is also removed from killer then one killer DC’ing and with no bot making the game end and just doing that over and over again) if it is used well people can use it to punish people who deserve the tunneling such as hard tunneling (even if they downed someone else) or tunneling when they have the advantage.
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Do you remember old BT? That only activated while being in the TR, which made it really easy for stealth killers (and Freddy) to ignore.
The same problem would be with your idea too, just 10s later.
And there should be a time limit as well or else survivors will just bodyblock the killer because they have infinite BT as long as they are in the TR.
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The unhook protections are useless against tunneling killers. They already have the timing of it memorized and all they do now is wait it out and hit you at the EXACT moment it wears off. Unhook protections do not offer enough protection against killers who play this way. If the killer chases you off hook, these protections should persist. If the killer hits you before the normal time period of the protection buffs then the buffs should extend and begin to wear off after the first hit. This is just the new way killers are playing now. They don't care about the unhook protections. It took them every bit of a day to figure out how to play around it. Killers should not be rewarded for playing this way.
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I know the build I'll mention is not fun for survivors, but if somebody wanted to play impossible skillchecks Doc on The Game then every survivor would have map-wide endurance. It would essentially be a free dead hard just because of the map.
Certain situations like this is why it wouldn't work. Also, how would this work against Dark Devotion?
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With the speed and the hit protection, going after you has being always inconvenient and a time waster for the killer unless you make it convenient.
I don't know how many times some survivors have wasted almost half of their unhook BT trying to make a protection hit. If you are just unhooked and you launch straight to me because you want to use your valuable free Endurance to protect your savior, then I will assume that you want to get chased again. In your mind what should I do, just hit you and be like "Aaaah you got me! Now get out of here, you rascal!" and let you go?
In any other case, even if the killer tries to go after you, you should have plenty of time to get to a loop and keep wasting more of his time, without counting that again, he would have to employ more time to catch you than going after your unhooker.
In other words, if you confront so many killers that can tunnel you so effectively, maybe you should revise how are you playing and what are you doing to make it so easy for them.
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Why are we resurrecting a month old thread?
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I'm specifically talking about killers who chase down unhooked survivors that are just trying to run away from the killer. This isn't about unhooked survivors taking protection hits. Its not even part of the problem here. The problem is killers countering anti tunneling mechanics quickly.
Its my thread and I still think this is a problem. I don't need to make another thread about it when I already have this one.
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The thread
You opened it
We came
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Wouldn't it be better if tunneling was made harder and killers were all buffed to compensate for it? That would be more fun for everyone in the match.
Hard tunneling should not be the most effective way to win as killer. That just ensures the most miserable tactic is present in every match. The game should make hook camping and hard tunneling the least appealing option. At least early in the game.
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Do you even remember how easily tunneling was before we got basekit BT? You just hit survivors once the moment their feet touched the ground and could hook them instantly again, giving them no more then 5s off-hook, hooking time included.
Basekit BT isn't the end all, be all of anti tunneling, but it gives you a fighting chance to get away. I fondly remember the times when I would double down the unhooker and the unhooked with a well placed punishment of the damned, but I also felt severely sorry for this poor souls, such devastating plays ain't possible anymore.
It's a fine line to walk.
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And I already addressed that case as well, and the conclusion is the same. If so many killers are choosing to go after you, and they are tunneling you so successfully that you are not even wasting more than the 10 seconds of Endurance + Haste you received for free of his time, then the problem is probably you and not the anti-hook system.
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I'm not sure if you've ever played survivor before but its not exactly easy to escape a killer right off the hook on most maps. They're going to catch you whether it takes 10 seconds or a few more. Tunneling completely ruins the survivor experience in this game. You seem to have an unreasonable expectation for survivors to be able to evade killers in even the most inconvenient situations. In my experience most survivor players can't do this and neither should they be expected to. It is unfair to lay the blame on them when there is very little a survivor can do to avoid being tunneled. We need more than perks and basekit abilities to deal with this.
One simple way they could do it is to have the killer's movement speed slowed if they are in chase of an unhooked survivor. If they know chasing the unhooked survivor will just slow them down, I believe most killers would likely not do this. Maybe have it not work once the exit gates are powered, but before that more needs to be done to keep the killer away from hooked survivors and more time traversing the map looking for others.
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I am all for solving tunneling (hard problem IMO to fix it in fair way). But this is just a bad idea. Getting into chase with unhooked person is very easy - especially if he wants to bodyblock. That means the mechanics would be abused too much, or the slowdown would be too inconsequential. There needs to be different kind of solution
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I'm not just play survivor and I'm doing it right now while writing this, I'm a killer that doesn't follow the survivor's rulebook, or in other words, that if I can tunnel you I will because I play to win.
The anti-tunnel BT it's fine, does it's job in punishing the killer if they tunnel unless the survivor itself makes it worth it. Simple as that.
Also, I have never faced so much tunneling for it to be "detrimental" to my experience. In any case, I have more problems with how my fellow survivors plays that what the killer does in most of the games.
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The game needs to change in such a way that killers do not even need to consider tunneling. This isn't about killers utilizing it as a win strategy. Its about the overall experience of playing as survivor and in many cases being able to stay in a match longer than it took to find one. Killers should be incentivized to go after other survivors so much that tunneling an unhooked survivor is not even an option to consider. If the game can't change to encourage that, then things need to change to discourage killers from tunneling survivors off the hook. It is completely unfair when that survivor is at a total disadvantage to the situation because someone decided to unhook them by the killer or the killer simply chooses to go right back to them. The unhook protections are nowhere near enough. Its a start, but much more needs to be done to address this.
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In other words, even when the system in place do it's job and is enough discouragement to not tunnel unless the survivor mess it up, what you want is for BHVR to force killers to not go for you even if you are the best option (and again, with the free BT if you become the best option to chase after an unhook it's on you) with yet another hand holding mechanic that protects you from having to lose because your or other survivor's mistakes.
And since you suffer so much tunneling that your "overall experience" with the game is so bad, you won't mind uploading some gameplay of all those moments so we can see how and why that tunneling was happening, so you can prove that the system it's not working as intended.
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Just yesterday I had a killer hardcore tunnel someone out of the game before ever hooking someone else. I did my best to protect that person, but in the end the killer got them. How much fun do you think that person had? How much do you think they want to continue playing this game?
Like I said in other posts, if a person is on a death hook, and no-one else has been hooked, make them unable to go down until someone else is hooked.
And yeah, the DS nerf just opened the floodgates to tunneling. The skill check has always been hard to hit on consoles and lower-end PCs. And if you miss it, the perk is dead for the rest of the game. So much for the anti-tunneling help. Did the devs increase the size of the skill check to help with the usability/accessibility of this perk? No. Did the devs make it so even if you miss the skill check, you can still use DS after the next unhook? No. What did the devs do? Reduce the stun to 3 seconds, so the killers don't even feel the punishment. This change to DS actually did a lot to promote tunneling.
IF the devs actually want DS to be a viable perk for everyone, but not increase the stun time, they could do this:
- increase the skill check so that people can hit it. Defense from tunneling should not be a privilege, it should be a right. If you equipped a perk, it should be functionable.
- make it so even if you miss the skill check, the perk will still re-activate after the next unhook
- after the stun, make the killer Incapacitated (unable to use their M2) for 10 seconds. The killer can still go after the survivor, and use M1, but they can't just M2 (this is critical with huntress, nurse, wesker, blight, who don't feel the 3 second stun)
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So, again, what you want is an abusable system granting protection from losing (unable to go down until next hook? Really?).
And "Defense from tunneling should not be a privilege, it should be a right."? That's the most entitled survivor main thing that I have hear in all my time playing this game. It's like a killer saying "BHVR need to implement a mechanic that automatically injure healthy survivors and hooks the injured ones if survivors tunnels the gens in less than 4 minutes. Defense from gen rushing should not be a privilege, it should be a right!" 🤣
Post edited by Batusalen on4 -
So what you are saying is that it's impossible to down any of the remaining 3 survivors? I've been playing killer for years, and trust me, all 4 survivors are downadble and hookable. If you are having trouble downing any of the 3 survivors, then you need to work on your skills. Something is veeeery wrong in how you play killer. I feel like I've never seen a streamer unable to down more than 1 survivor in a match. This seems like a problem unique to you.
Not getting eliminated from a match before you had a chance to do anything is abusable in your opinion? Man, are you really listening to yourself? You hook the same person twice, without hooking anyone else. And you're telling me you are unable to down anyone else before this person dies? Unless you are constantly playing with cheaters who use significant speed hacks, then you are very out of touch with reality.
What I proposed would only work once per match, and only IF a certain condition is met: 1 person on death hook, and no-one else hooked.
How is being entitled when you want a chance to play the match, and not get constantly harassed until death, before you managed to get any points? You really think people will still want to play the game after matches like this?
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