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Anticamping "fix"
Someone explain to me this fix. How does letting the hooked survivor jump of the hook deliverance style fix anything. Won't the killers just redown and rehook the person getting them another hookstate even faster?
This solution seem far too complicated with new ui elements, features that turn off at egc, and marginal additional fun for everyone.
Why not use the same killer proximity to hook rules to give a gen speed boost? This would hasten gen speeds which is already the correct play for survivors when facing a camper. Additionally, it naturally turns itself off at egc without complicated explanations. So simple AND effective
Edit: additionally, the camping problem was made worse by its increase in effectiveness when generator times increased. Clearly, speeding up generators could fix that.
Comments
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Unfortunately your proposed solution doesn't fix the problem statement BHVR would have started with. It's not a case of they thought "Face camping is bad and we should push killers for it", face camping is already sub optimal in a lot of cases but it still remains effective. Their problem statement was "Face camping is unfun for the survivor who is taken out of the game and has to just sit and wait out till death".
You can see this in the language used in the PTB notes they released:
"it can quickly become frustrating if the Killer decides to wait nearby, preventing all but the most coordinated of teams from rescuing you. [...] there’s not much the Survivor being camped can do."
The intention of the change if to add more engagement for the hooked player. Simply making gens go faster and the rest of the team having the potential to progress the game to an end state doesn't really change anything for the hooked player who still has to wait around (albeit a shorter time) .
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Being tunneled immediately off hook is also frustrating. I'm not saying it won't help but there will be a lot of cases where you jump off hook into a dead zone and get nowhere.
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Losing is frustrating. But most players tend to see that losing likely happens if you don't play as well as the opponent. You have the opportunity to display your expertise during the entire process of being tunneled, so you can avoid it if you play well. This is not the case while being face-camped. This is the reason that tunneling doesn't getting nerfed (any further), while camping is.
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"Darn, this guy really knows how to count to 10. Oh well, guess he's just better than me."
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Perfect is the enemy of good. The solution isn't perfect but it's far better than the current live state of the game. Unhooking yourself isn't an instant down, a number of perks come into play. The survivor has more agency with the change and we'll see a number of successful escapes. Even if they don't manage to escape the game progresses faster for the player and they die sooner, on the flip side as well there's less incentive to suicide on hook which is better for the wider survivor team.
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I guess I'm looking at fixing it long term by discouraging the killers into only doing it late game when it might be necessary. I just don't see this fix doing a damn thing other making the game different for the sake of it.
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Yea I hope so. Might have to switch to Sprint Burst if the mechanic comes into play often.
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So you spend 59 seconds on hook to get best value from anti-camp, you get downed at 70 seconds (assuming you don't use anti-tunnel perks, don't make it to a window or pallet for some reason, and no teammate of you comes to body-block). Add the time of the pickup animation, the hooking animation and the time it takes for the killer to reach the second hook. That is close to 90 seconds. That's exactly the time it takes for the rest of your team to do three entire gens (assuming they have no perks or items that speed the process further).
Repeat the above process for your second hook, and you'll see that the killer gets a loss with 1k by the time you die, even if you start the trial facecamped on hook.
And again, the above numbers assume that your only skill is holding forward while running straight into the deadzone with zero perks that could help you.
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Increasing the Gen Speed to guarantee that 5 Gens can be finished in two Hook Stages would be a solution, yes. But IMO BHVRs version is better. Because even if you can guarantee that 5 Gens can be done while one person is being camped, this does not change anything for the one on the hook.
Furthermore it requires this Survivor to stay in the game. And especially when Solo, I cannot really blame people if they suicide on Hook when they get camped, because they would rather go into the next game and actually get to play.
With BHVRs solution the Survivor at least has a chance. It is no guaranteed getaway, but you get 15 seconds of Endurance so this might be enough to reach a Loop and actually get to play the game.
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My point was though that you're not fixing the problem as identified by BHVR. You're trying to solve another problem which I don't think your proposal would even solve.
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The easier solution is to match the hook timer to gen speeds. So instead of 60 seconds per hook stage it becomes 90, and when BHVR inevitably changes gens again the hook stage goes up again with it.
That alone automatically makes camping (and also tunneling in some cases) less efficient.
Reducing the efficiency of the play style is all that needs to happen. Players who want to win will stop camping on their own if it stopped winning games for them.
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me with decisive strike and a swf
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yes we should do that im in all favor for that make a poll for it
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Decisive strike is trash, needs to be buffed back to 5 seconds
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"Won't the killers just redown and rehook the person getting them another hookstate even faster"? Yes, yes they will LOL
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nope? Because you don't need to immediatly unhook? So it will basically always waste more time from now on than it did in the past...
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I know, but did you see the clip lol. Do you think the killers power should be disabled near the hook?
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creating safe zones where the killers power does not work is quite problematic... But we all know that some killers are just really good at camping.
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basekit bt allows you to cover 44m without getting downed, you'll reach a pallet (4.4 x 10=44). If they hit you instead of waiting it out (the better and more common play without otr) then you gain 23.8s of distance between you and the killer. Heres the math for that:
(6.6 x 1.8 + 4 x 0.9)/0.6=23.8
If we multiple 23.8 by the survivor's movement speed, we will find how much ground you can cover without getting m1'd.
23.8 x 4 = 95.2
95.2 meters of ground can be covered. You'll find plenty of pallets in that range.
Overall, you either are guaranteed to reach a loop and start the chase off fair or you are guaranteed to cover the entire map without getting downed. Thats just from basekit BT. With the anti camp solution, you get to choose when that happens because you can unhook yourself. Speaking of which, you can unhook yourself at any time once the meter is filled. Just wait until you are about to hit second stage to waste as much time as possible. Stage one is 60 seconds long. So assuming you have the anti camp charged up, you unhook after wasting 60s of their time then waste at minimum 30 seconds or more extra since you are guaranteed to reach a pallet.
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They can yes but it looks like the survivor can hold it. So if they wait until the last second before hitting stage 2, they provided more time for teammates to finish gens and possibly come bodyblock. They also will have the time from whatever distance they make afterward adding onto that. At the very least, they get to play for a moment. While giving more time to do gens to teammates.
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If you were unhooked by another survivor, nothing would prevent the killer to tunnel you either.
This is so you can do something against camping, not against being chased and downed again.
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There's a few things to unpack here, so I'll try to touch on all of them.
How does letting the hooked survivor jump of the hook deliverance style fix anything?
For the hooked Survivor, there was absolutely nothing you could do previously. You could only sit there and wait until you eventually die. If your team was coordinated, they could maybe organize a save, but doing so would A) result in one of them being hooked instead, and B) mean that they weren't working on generators, which is the main way to counter camping.
With this system, you at least have a chance. The Killer might chase you again, yes, but it is far better to be running around and actually playing the game than to be sitting on a hook unable to do anything at all. Your teammates can also take a hit to keep you going, or - if they happened to fix the generators while you kept the Killer busy - they might be able to finish the last gen and open a gate for you.
Won't the killers just redown and rehook the person getting them another hookstate even faster?
The only way this system gets you another hook state even faster is if:
- You get the option to unhook yourself very quickly.
- You unhook yourself very early.
- Your chase goes so poorly afterward that the time it takes for the Killer to use your Endurance/wait for it to run out, catch up and hit you again, and carry you back to a hook is less than the remaining time you could have spent in that stage.
It's important to note that you have no obligation to unhook yourself as soon as the option becomes available. You could wait until the very last second before hitting the second stage and then unhook yourself. When you get hooked again, it will only progress to the second stage, which you would have hit a second later anyway. This makes any time you spent getting chased and carried back to a hook a pure bonus.
Why not use the same killer proximity to hook rules to give a gen speed boost?
To put it simply, the system already does something very similar by giving your teammates more time to work on generators. Because you can unhook yourself, they don't need to waste their time when you're getting camped. They can safely go back to repairing knowing that you'll be able to save yourself. Adding to that, the extra time you waste while getting chased after you unhook yourself gives them even more time to repair without the Killer interrupting them.
However, the big difference here is that the system on the PTB also allows the camped Survivor to continue playing in the meantime. Rather than sitting on the hook with nothing to do while their teammates work on generators, they're able to at least run around and be chased.
This would hasten gen speeds which is already the correct play for survivors when facing a camper.
This is the last thing I want to touch on. Nothing about this is untrue, but it's far from what actually happens in most matches. Yes, smashing out gens while the Killer is distracted is the smart move. But more often than not, at least one person will attempt to make the save anyway. Not everyone plays with a coordinated team who knows how to combat camping, and it's simply not realistic to expect all your random teammates to recognize that the Killer is camping and avoid going for a rescue. That said, if they know you'll be able to save yourself, there's very little reason for them to risk their own life to try and save you. Once they see the Killer near the hook, running over is a waste of their time.
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But do Survivors in SoloQ get any notification if and when the hooked/camped survivor has the possibility to unhook themselves? Unless the killer is standing right in front of them and seen with kindred, how would they know that they don't need to come get them? Or realize that they can unhook themselves.
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The hook doesn't yeet you the instant the bar fills - the bar gives you one free charge of deliverance that you can use at any time (until you are unhooked)
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Sadly, as usual BHVR have implemented the requirement of "within X range" in three dimensions, so a killer on the ground floor still counts as camping if the hook is on the second floor above him/her.
Well at least they're consistent. Consistently bad design/implementation, that is.
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It turns into somewhat of a problem with basement, since you can be that far away from it that it does not go as fast as needed to unhook in stage one while you still stand on top of the stairs.
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At first I was worried but I watched some youtubers showing it. It's not that bad. You can still do what you need to near the hook and be fine.
Even if you wanted to tunnel you still can. The only issues I see is multilayered maps and basements where it thinks your camping but really your not.
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A lot of people lamented that, at least in Japan, the removal of the hook grab made it perfectly possible for anyone to swap one sirvivor with a survivor on the hook after 60 seconds, and it didn't require any skill whatsoever.
Unless the killer is a Cannibal.
Furthermore, tunneling can be prevented or delayed through perks and cooperation between survivors.
I can't believe that even in this situation survivors are making such a fuss that they can't be rescued, and I really don't understand it.
Unless the Survivor is too noob, why can't you rescue the survivor on the hook from the camping killer?
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I see this """fix"""" as free basekit deliverance 2.0. Nothing else. The hook grabs removed and that alone wasnt enough for survivors to trade or "take one" for the person hooked it's up to the killer at that point.
I just don't understand how many tools the dev's are going to give to survivors for free while keep punishing the killer in the process.. even with the tools they still ignore them and they refuse to adapt.. I don't think it's the game's fault at this rate with all the information out there..
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If you are one of the face camping killers and this actually affects you, then that's fine with me, because facecamping is a dumb strategy and it is great it's gone, just learn to chase people and the "Deliverance 2.0" won't even activate... In other words git gut.
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These changes behavior need to make are to preserve the fun of the game. Especially amongst newer players. Their business only works if there is a robust influx of new players that enjoy the game enough to buy a few skins, unlock the battlepass and buy the occassional new dlc. If players experience tunnelling and camping to extremely those new players last 1 game and bounce.
There are tools within game to address many of these things, but ultimately those had to be implemented to curb that bad behavior of killers. Killers were literally detrimental to the game's health.
Personally, I think BHVR is fixing the issues incorrectly but...it's ultimately their game to fix. As long as the game remains fun, I'll play. Patch 6.1 was a blow to me, as it drove off all the friends I used to play with. We used to play SWF and 80% of the time we'd all die anyway, we aren't seal team six. The game has to work for all skill levels or it dies off, it is just that simple.
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May I offer you this meme
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Just more proof that killers are not allowed to play in any way not preapproved by survivor mains, and BHVR will enforce that.
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Maybe making it that staying close to hook makes the struggle to progress slower
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So based on the feedback from the PTB that I'm reading, I think my solution of speeding up gen times is the better fix.
There are going to be so many rules around when the timer is allowed to advance. Does a slug near the hook allow the unhook bar to fill? What about breaking pallets or kicking a generator or reloading knives and hatchets from a locker, or just checking a nearby locker? Does there need to be a slight grace period for the killer to leave the area, if so how long should the grace period be?
Speeding up generators is so clean a solution! if it takes the killer 5 seconds to leave the proximity of the hook, the effective speedup on generators is correspondingly small. If the killer chooses to spend 3 seconds breaking a pallet, ditto. In this scenario, the killer has to choose which activity is more important, clean up around the hook or getting back to the generator patrol and chases.
And finally, the most effective hook campers: The Cannibal, Huntress, Trickster are barely inconvenienced by the unhooking. So the system fails to solve the one problem it was meant to fix. BVR Please reconsider this system.
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I could camp a survivor and draw on another monitor at the same time. But when Im drawing, Im not playing games.
Same to campers, theyre not playing game. I dont know where killers are not allowed to play, Devs are actually trying to force you playing game.
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While I agree this fix is bad it's for different reasons. Survivors are gonna abuse the radius. Faster gen productivity is interesting, but depending on the speed would be exploited too. I still say a buff to hook leaving perks would naturally get killers to leave the hooks on their own.
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People keep suggesting this as an idea. But it will straight up punish fair playing killers since you are giving EVERYONE basekit reassurance which is one of the best survivor perks in the game and they do not even have to go anywhere near the hook for it to work. Plus you just let people do gens for longer before getting the save (which punishes even the fairest of killers and kills their pressure).
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I'm not sure that's true. I think that killers have just solved the problem on what is the most efficient and successful. I'm not sure changing chase perks would alter this math unless those perks were buffed a lot. We have evidence that this wouldn't work too. Patch 6.1 hugely buffed killers in chase in a bunch of small to medium sized ways and the result was more camping and tunnelling then ever before.
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Sounds like camper is mad, stop camping and play the game correctly and you won't have anything to worry about
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I agree not to mention they aren't doing anything about tunneling either. How is it fun to get tunneled when they keep nerfing all the anti tunnel perks
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One fix they could have done, would be not allowing the killer to see what we are bringing before the match starts. I don't really care about face camping bc killers are going to tunnel you out the game anyway even if you save yourself or get rescued from hook.
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thank you for you patronage
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no u
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"play the game correctly" = Play it how I want you to play it.
This kind of mindset is part of the problem.
"There is only one way to play the game and anyone choosing not to follow that one way is not playing it right."
While a mechanic like this will hopefully lessen the likelihood that a killer will stand there staring you in the face on hook at 5 gens, what about those times when it makes sense to switch from chasing to defensive play?
Example.
Last night I had 2 gens left and only 1 hook, just a really mismatched unfortunate combination of map, killer and SWF. (Scratched mirror Myers on shattered square). Now that's fine some games go that way but...
1 hook at 2 gens left means I can't really pressure the survivors to create adequate stall by committing to chases, so I switch it up to defend the hook I do have.
Survivors keep rushing the hook to get the save and I turn it into 2 downs with some good play around the hook. This results in a 3k by endgame, last person hatched out.
The ability to unhook yourself due to killer proximity until end game collapse really limits the capacity for killers to reset the pressure mid game or to change up how they play when the scenario calls for it.
This is one of the reasons I'm skeptical about the current change. It doesn't offer a balanced solution to all but the most egregious 5 gen face camper and the appeasement of the "waah camping!" crowd who bemoan it in any form even when its the best play to make.
Case in point the poster quoted, whom appears to think that any form of camping is not playing the game "correctly" and that criticism of the mechanic must just be the result of a face camper being mad.
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Why on earth you play scratched mirror Myers on Shattered Square. That build only works on inside maps so you were lucky to even get 3K out of that due to bad survivors.
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Well you see maps are random.
I have more scratched mirror addons than I do map offerings that play to scratched mirror's strengths so sometimes you get a bad map.
Not to be snide but If that's the part of the post that concerns you, I think you missed the point.
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