If nerfing Gen Speed isn't a option, what else would you do instead?
Curious Question among the playerbase, on what to do with nerfing Gen Speeds or create passive slowdown to the pace of the game.
I hear complaints that increase generator repair time is "lazy change and it make fixing Genators more boring then normal". I want to know what you do to make the game pace more engaging yet fair for killers to have a fair amount of time to have a change to win; if I am making any sense. If it was up to me, I could go for number of alternatives routes such as making survivors move slower then normal so that killer can end chase in less then 60 seconds instead of taking a long time waste. They could rework maps and have a fair balance of dead zones and pallets zones in between, to make chases easy. They could instead, gives Survivors more objectives stuff to do, such as finding specific Generators parts from across the map in order to complete a generator or find a special key to unlock the exit gate switch. There is a lot of ideas that can be done, so that killers don't necessarily need to camp and tunnel to win, and more incentives to chase more for a chance to win better and have more fun.
Survivors don't like camping and tunnelling, so does killers not liking Genrushing! There might be a way that makes it fair for both sides.
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Killers don't need to camp/tunnel to win. It's just easier. Survivors don't need to genrush to win. It's just easier. Make those tactics less then optimal and something else will take it's place - the question is how to do it, that those other things will be fair and fun for both sides more then actual version.
To be frank, I don't know what it would be. And I am too afraid that the change would be a bad one. DBD is good (sure it has a lot of quirks and unfun things, but it's fun). It would be shame to ruin it
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so does killers not liking Genrushing! T
As main killer, i absolutly dont have a problem with that. Thats something i can predict and try to stop.
If you dont want to change the timing, there is not mutch that you can do to slow down the game. The "extra objective" survivors have to do is "rescue from hook" and "heal". But yes if for some reasons a killer is not able to down survivors the game can be very fast.
Its a bit of experience of the killer to guess where they are walking and trying to chase into a direction where they are working on.
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It is not always easy predicting every single Survivor's movement especially when you are in chase with one of them. Maps are getting large and have sometimes too many safety nets, that it's very hard to applied map pressure without being forced to camp and tunnel; in order to lure Aultristic survivors to you, rather then you finding them. Of course, it is definitely easier if you have strong and useful perks/builds/specific strong killers to compliment your map pressure capabilities. But, if you are a weak to average killer whom doesn't want to used meta perks, you are at a disadvantage and forced to play "toxic" to win efficiency.
The game should be updated and there needs to be more reward in chase and hunting; so that tunneling and camping can be not necessary and also, slowdown the pace of the game. My suggestion could involved huge map Reworks across the board (not graphical updates), new gameplay mechanic to reward killers in engaging in chase and less on tunneling one or two same Survivors, with passive Gen regression/slowdown speed.
Also, to awnser your first statement, yes... Survivor Genrushing is a problem indeed, I cannot go for 8-12 hooks no more, as I can give survivors too many chances to get their objectives done and speedrun the game so that I do not get any of my challenges/BP for my efforts. I want games to at least last more then 10 minutes; but also not last more then 20 minutes also. My past few games as killers or survivors, I either lose the game by either dying by tunneling or... all survivors got away teabags at the exit gates in less then 5 minutes.
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I would need to know more, what is the average gen speed per match? Are survivors winning more? thats where idd start.
If you mean to ask personally if i think gens go too fast? no
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In my opinion "face camping" is not a viable tactic to win the game. You cannot stand 120sec infront of a hook and hope to win the game. In that time at least 3 gens will pop, just so the survivor can be safed in the last second anyway.
Proxycamping (so staying in that area) is a good tactic especally in the lategame. To stop makeing proxycamping or tunneling not worth it anymore would mean that its not a difference if there are 4 or 3 survivors are in the game.
I understand what you like, that you should be rewarded for hooking equally every survivor and i agree on the point that it would be funny, but i dont know how a mechanic could be introduced or be balanced. We see how the endurance of the unhooked (thats suppost to be a anti tunneling mechanic) is used in a offensive way. Thats why ideas like passiv DS or something like that wont work very well
Survivor Genrushing is a problem indeed, I cannot go for 8-12 hooks no more, as I can give survivors too many chances to get their objectives done and speedrun the game so that I do not get any of my challenges/BP for my effortsDisagree on that, hooking people is stopping them from genrushing. You have 1 guy in chase, 1 guy on hook, 1 guy is rescuing the guy on hook. So only 1 guy can do gens.
My past few games as killers or survivors, I either lose the game by either dying by tunneling or... all survivors got away teabags at the exit gates in less then 5 minutes.I understand you, but that sounds like a problem of your matchmaking. You are playing against survivor who are better as you, so who can drag chases that long that the other survivor can easily finish the gens. "genrushing" itself is not really a tactic or anything, its the way survivors have to play. Because if they are not doing gens, what else should they do?
Post edited by Hanuka5 on4 -
You don't need to make it less optimal. When we talk about tunneling, you can't really, that simply wouldn't end well.
You need to make either other playstyles less worse compare to it.
-Release perks that promote other playstyles (pain resonance etc.). I don't understand why they don't use that system of perk more (token based for unique survivors).
-Give players a reason to go for less optimal play (BBQ did it really well).
-if you really want to make killers stop, you would have to implement basekit changes, that would promote not doing it, we will see what AFC does to balance, maybe killer will deserve something because of it too.
That's for killers at least. Survivors are mostly fixed by gen rush being boring, most killers don't really see genrush, just got screwed by spawning system...
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If it was up to me to rework Spawn system, make all survivors spawn at the front of the exit gate together at once. It doesn't make sense for them to spawn literally right next to their main objective and make it easy for them to knock out a generator in less then 90 seconds of the first match. Personally I would prefer survivors spawning on the first generator they see, instead of 3/4 survivors spawning at four Genators at once.
BBQ should be basekit/as well as few other meta killer perks like for example... Corrupt Intervention for early game pressure and especially set trap time for trap based killers. Or even, pop goes the weasel to make gen kicking worth a while after each hook you made. I used to like pop goes the weasel, for being the most healthy regression perks which makes each hook worth alot in value. (That and revert the regression nerf, back to the good old %25 reduction, regardless of the progress of the gen.) Making these basekit will promote killers to leave hooks more and go for chase more, to gain insane value in map pressure.
As for my final Rework to tunneling completely; scrap the ENDURANCE effect completely and simply make Survivor getting off the hook losing their hit collision box as soon as they get off the hook. That way, the Survivors cannot be hurt at all, completely immunity u til they do a conspicuous actions or until another survivor gets hook instead; plus, they can no longer abuse the Endurance status effect and they collision to body block the killer by any means necessary. It can be turn off during Endgame, or if that survivor is the last Survivor in the match, or even grants the Endurance status effect during Endgame, but yeah; just make Rework off the Record, and Borrowed Time completely and just make Survivor lose their collision so they be untouchable and cannot get in the way of the killer downing another survivor.
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There is one point that should be corrected. The rescuer does not always act like a rescuer, but actually repairs the gen for 30 to 40 seconds before finally getting up and going to the rescue.
Then, like a fool, he ignores the killer and charges in to pull up the on-hook survivors.
Because then he can do his job.
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Play pig for passive slowdown before she gets nerfed 🗿
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If he does that its easier for killer^^ Because if im not in a chase or anything i will be there in the last 10seconds too and try to make sure that he pops the next hookstage before hes getting rescued
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It doesn't work that well without grabs. Even one survivor can safely unhook.
But you will get a trade and free tunnel if you want...
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I have confirmed that you do not have the basic skill of on-hook exchange.
You need to retract that statement in order to claim that you are neither an ignorant newbie nor a lazy player.
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Probably nerfing toolboxes and gen speed from resilience, you can't increase global gen speed without ruining the game right now, killers like nurse/blight can already win 99/100 matches with 90 seconds gens
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Nurse and Bright, who have a winning rate of 99/100, are only players who are in the top 50 on the leaderboard, even if you estimate it a little.
If you're losing 99/100 times to people who don't, it's time to improve your skills.
If your opponent is a nurse, you can waste about 40 seconds of your time by failing at least two blink attacks.
Considering the search time and on-hook time, all survivors will do this in turn, and by the time one person is sacrificed, the gate will be energized.
In most cases where this is not the case, either the opponent is a Goddes Nurse user, or one of the survivors was knocked down in the wrong spot.
For survivors at a level where they can properly choose where to chase and where to be killed, having a nurse as an opponent isn't too difficult of an obstacle.
At least if you and the nurse are equally skilled players and your goal is to energize the gate.
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We should start from a basic acknowledgement: Barring specific outlier situations, gen speed is pretty good right now. It's within the killer's control how efficient survivors are, and good play is rewarded with decent slowdown.
That being said, those specific outlier situations are too strong. I'd personally look at two things that can cause generator speeds to progress at a rate killers can't deal with: Toolboxes, and spawning all spread out.
Toolboxes doesn't require much explanation as a pick here. They offer massive gen speed, and with the best setup spread across all four survivors, they can knock off ridiculous amounts of gen time. Rather than just straight nerfing them, as that'd just make them kinda useless outside of saboteur plays, I'd rather see them reworked to provide a shield against regression instead of speed. No speed bonus, but your progression is 'protected' to a degree.
Spawning spread out is a massive issue too, pretty much equivalent. It's only compounded when they all spread out with toolboxes, but we've already addressed that. To avoid scenarios where three generators are completed just after your first chase, I'd personally recommend survivors needing to spawn either in groups of two, or all spawning together.
With those changes made, the killer's early game is less susceptible to massive disadvantages outside their control, and that puts generator speeds largely in the hands of how skilled every player is, which is where things should be imo.
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That would be the most best solution I can absolutely agree.
Survivors shouldn't spawn spread out and right next to generator, and should spawn together as a group and a good distance away. It would be perfect to spawn them like right next to Exit Gates, so that the killer can make a educated guess on which gates to go to, except if they have Lethal Pursuer. That way, in theory they could go run to the closest gen they see, but it would be perfect opportunity to go explore the map and find the generator that needs to be completed first.
As for the 2nd change, yess Toolboxes absolutely needs a complete Rework ans gut the whole faster repair speed for something else entirely. I think Otzdarvia came up with a cool concept, of making Toolboxes allows you to permanently fix a Genators progress, when used. That would be a absolutely healthy change as it helps Survivors keep a decent amount of progress on a generator, without the fear of a killer regression perks completed make a generator completely regressing all of your progress if play correctly.
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Early game help for killers. Something like a 60s basekit corrupt would be extremely healthy for the game. Also, kill toolboxes.
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I would Rework tools box so that they don't necessarily gives Survivors insane repair speed when stacking with repair speed perks. I liked the idea of toolbox just keep progress on Generators for a certain amount of charges, that way any killer gen regression perks cannot regress those further.
And yes, basekit corruption intervention would be a blessing if survivors spawns cannot be reworked. There needs to be some sort of countered to prevent survivors from working on the first Genator they spawn next to.
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The solutions are quite simple tbh
Survivors always spawn in a 4 man, as far away from a generator as possible.
Of course since in certain maps the previous fix isn't possible, so 30s of basekit corrupt intervention is mandatory.
Rework toolboxes to just sabotage hooks , and rework all the gen addons into sabotage addons, for example making BNP turn one hook into a sabotageable hook without needing a toolbox / Perk. Repair speed addons could be turned into "Hook stays sabotaged for longer" or something of the sorts.
The game should encourage interaction instead of "Hold M1 on gen, bring this perk/item to hold M1 on gen slightly harder"
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Gen times and Gen speeds are 2 different things
Gens: 90 charges
Survivors efficiency: 1.0- 2.2 charges per second with a 1% bonus for hitting a great skillcheck
So that means 90 charges can be done in 90-45 seconds
Then adding in Perks and Toolboxes can speed up Gens
So it begs the question... is it Gen times or Gen speeds?
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Imo the thing I have learned recently is that it's not the gen speeds that are the problem, it's all the tools that Survivor's have to make them faster, or to make other things they can do faster. All the best Survivor perks are all about speed, and that's where the main problem comes in, perks and items.
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Natural regression speed needs to go faster. If a survivor leaves a gen for an extended period of time, that's on them. We are nerfing the SM which is what got BHVR to throw in those regression nerfs to begun with. If they aren't reverting them, then at the very least boost natural regression speeds. All a survivor has to do to counter it is tap the gen.
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Also, another problem that need fixing which also discouraged gen kicking even more so (unless they brought a gen kicking perk/regression to compensate the time investment in kicking.) Gen tapping Needs a nerf of some kind; a Survivor shouldn't be able to undone a killer's 2.5 second kicking animation all the time with a tap of a button. If anything, a Survivor might need to do a skill check or waste a few seconds to stop a gen fron regressing entirely before they can start repairing again.
Yes, I am suggesting another nerf to Survivors, but it is a minor yet very convenient fix to stop Survivor from gen tapping in front of a killer's face during chase and stop the gen from regressing any further.
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Give intel for basekit gen grouping. Basically a lesser version of Discordance after X number of good skill checks made while co-op'd. Intel is grossly undervalued by the lower skilled Killers, but once you have a base understanding of the game you can plan accordingly. A weak/medium skill Killer can go straight there, but a stronger Killer can weigh their options of the current chase, decide they don't care about the main gen getting popped 1st on Swamp, and know where 2/3 remaining Survivors will have been in the recent past to intercept a possible rescuer post-hook.
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I would prefer, also to add maybe a temporary basekit speed buff to low tier/average killers that doesn't have any movement speed into their power to help cover distance. Maybe not necessarily if maps get less huge or Survivor don't move too fast/have safe loop connecting to each other.
I don't know, I feel like most average killer needs either a passive gen slowdown built into their power or some means to increase their mobility. Like Trapper recently, with his upcoming trap placements movement speed increase Buff. It can be tweaks to be lower when in engaging in a chase, but it would be nice if killers can move faster outside of chase so they can close the distance in patrolling gens if possible.
Sometimes, you get the situations in which Survivors are grouping up on a generator across the map; and you simply don't have enough time vs. their repair speed increase when stacking numbers, perks, toolboxes; and then you lost a generator and waste time go all the way over there. Sometimes, you are forced to let go generator that is too far from your patrol route or too impossible to defend, like for instance Dead Dog Sallom 2nd floor balcony.
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