STOP GENRUSH!!! Enough of favoring the role of survs!!
Comments
-
med kits are still very strong. I pack a double charged one with me every match.
1 -
With a green medkit and the right addons!/perks you could heal in like 4-6 seconds, that was completely busted and people called it out for years... The efficency increase it gave was ridiculous... Same goes for strong toolboxes bnp... You can say what you want about the other stuff but healing has been busted for quite some time in this game...
5 -
Thing about this tho, stop being competitive and do what? That's the issue. That's all the survivors have to do aside from totems.
The games design needs a tweak. Either add more objectives or diversions in the match to gain extra bloodpoints.
I don't blame the survivors for wanting to do the gens as fast as they can so much as the design of the game.
The devs give survivors all these boosting tools and perks to use and killers sweat so hard they end up to stressed to enjoy themselves. They either quit, or divert to gross tactics which in turn damper everyone's fun.
3 -
Now while I think killer does need some help with early game pressure. This title comes off as a bit entitled from an outside perspective
1 -
I never said there weren't issues, because I still think nerfing the original dead hard for distance and removing DS in end game, etc were good changes.
But people use these as excuses for why they're losing games, and that's consistently not been the problem. Or at least, as soon as that's been nerfed, the goal post is instantly moved to the next excuse.
Healing was never the issue. It was so much not the issue that it's now an even more critical problem that survivors aren't even spending those '4-6 seconds' healing, they just spend that time on gens.
Nerfing circle was idiotic. Survivors voluntarily spent time searching for totems, 14-28 seconds blessing totems, crossing the map to get to the boon, and ~22 seconds healing. Killers apparently wanted all of that time spent on gens instead of heals. That was the meta before circle, and that's the meta now after circle is dead.
The consistent reason players are losing games is their own gameplay.
8 -
The issue of spending 4-6 seconds to heal is how much more time it costs the killer to get you injured again, players could have decided earlier that they don't want to heal and just slam gens, the option was already there.
Yes survivors could reset an unlimited amount of times without needing coordination or another teammate, it was a terrible idea because it basically removed pressure of the survivors since they didn't need to find another teammate to heal with you could argue that the chase time for the killer is somewhat equal to 20-40 seconds and that time can be undone by one survivor out of four, do you realise how good of a trade that is for the survivors?
Besides that the meta before coh was not not to heal but to bring a medkit that gave you 2-3 heals... And you could heal within 4-16 seconds depending on what you brought, it was ridiculously fast.
Sure it is still mostly players skill but there is limits to that coh made healing so easy that splitting pressure was just not worth it...
1 -
You speak as if survivor is the only side that has gameplay mechanics like that. Killers have all sorts of annoying things to play when they have the chance. Slowdown perks are still pretty good in most cases, I've actually been seeing pentimento alot lately and it's quite annoying once you reach the point of gen/heal slowdown and ultimate weapon seems like the killer equivalent to MFT. Also why can't the killers also not play as sweaty and competitive? I agree that it's bad game design but literally all of y'all can pitch in at making this game more enjoyable and not sweaty like it's a $10k prize at an esports event
4 -
Med kits are not nearly as powerful without the right add ons and you can't even heal yourself efficiently anymore since the kit literally uses more charges to heal you than it does for someone else. The thing is I get wanting to nerf them but they nerfed them so hard that they aren't all that usable anymore. Toolboxes will remain the meta until they get gutted as well
3 -
The proof is in the pudding here. Killers asked to 'make healing suck' and now no one heals at all. Medkits got replaced by toolboxes, and circle got replaced by resilience.
Meta before circle was almost what we have now: adrenaline and resilience. Medkits were used for 99% heals and that's about it.
I don't even necessarily care about the medkit nerf, as it should've been obvious from my post. But circle nerf was dumb.
Survivors spent literal minutes of the game setting up boons, traveling, and healing, and the net result of that nerf is now literal minutes of survivor time that is now spent, with resilience, banging out gens.
I said before the nerf this was going to be the result, and here we are. Circle slowed down the game, which is good for killers. Those same killers cried, got circle nerfed, and now have to play in the bed they literally ######### in.
8 -
They are still more efficient than healing with two survivors we have 24 seconds for one person VS 16 seconds for two...
1 -
Less if you have 2 survivors healing you. You know teamwork?
0 -
I'm speaking in terms of gen rushing. Oh believe me I know killers do it to. Its just unreasonable to think people will go onto matches In an survivor vs killer game and not want to win. Everyone wants to perform well and win.
To survivors it seems they think escapes is a win when in reality it's points at the end game. You'll never be able to convince the entire player base to stop trying so hard. I'm just saying the only logical approach is to change up the tasks. Include things other then "sit on gen". Imo, that's the only real way slow down speeds. But if they do add something for survivor then they have to equally add more for.killer to keep the game balanced.
0 -
Which really cannot be done without a complete rework that the devs aren't interested in doing because they don't have to. Everyone can also perform well without actually escaping. Even if I don't escape I still do better than a lot of lazy teammates that do so in the end it feels more like a win for me than for them.
0 -
Ruin was healthy.
Undying was not.
2 -
Well they have done some in the past. The end game collapse changed the entire end game gameplay. It was simply a timer.
They could just add stuff and not do a complete rework. But yeah it takes extra effort which I doubt they'd do.
I see alot of people begging for change, saying things are stale. It would be nice if the devs stopped adding more survivors and killers to dump points into and instead focus on game changes and perk changes.
Like, pause on content and try out some interesting gameplay additions and perk reworks. But they won't. I fear adding chapters is the only way they can keep getting money needed to keep going idk.
0 -
Sure then you have 8 seconds, but now you have 3 survivors involved in healing, which now makes it as efficient as using a medkit for 24 seconds, you realize that right?
2 -
I disagree that circle was good for killers but you do i guess...
1 -
I'm not sure what higher ups are in charge but they are mainly the ones who keep bhvr pushing out too much content. This happens alot with games in general. The sims 4 is pushed by EA despite multiple glitches and bad game design, mortal Kombat is fun but released in a clearly unfinished state and I'm sure WB doesn't allow them much fixing time as opposed to pushing out new content. Alot of games like this that have been going for several years have an issue with spaghetti coding that cant really be fixed without completely eviscerating the game mechanics and reworking them
0 -
8 seconds that are over and done and now all 3 of you can start a gen? Or do you wanna wait for that guy healing himself in the corner before you stack gens on a high pressure blight or wesker? You realize that everything in this game is situational right?
1 -
Sure, but you do also know about the lower efficiency when stacking on gens anyway? So most likely it will still get you further to let that guy heal with his medkit and do the gen with only two people, you can do the math yourself after what duration of gen progress this becomes better or worse depending on the inefficiency modifier.
0 -
That's not what I said. I said circle slowed down the game, and slowing down the game is good for killers.
Both of those statements are 100% correct.
You might make an argument that being healthy is bad for killers, but I haven't said anything about healing states in this entire conversation.
2 -
That conclusion is the logical result of both of your statements, you do realise that...
1 -
I surprised that after 6.1.0 the kill rate increased from ~53% to 61% (iirc), then with all those nerf the the kill rate currently dropped down to ~56%. Thats pretty impressive that how survivors are actually getting better.
While most killers are too used to 4 slowdowns that work for themselves and cant hold survivors after slowdown nerfs. I never use slowdown, camp or tunnel while using Trapper, the buff from 6.1.0 really helped me alot because I didnt get a single nerf in my game play, only get the benefit of 50sec Gen and general buff.
Same to survivors, the hard nerf on DH and Coh didnt bother me, I never use them, I just feel they were so broken
2 -
When killers stop proxy camping and slugging, I'll stop bum-rushing gens.
1 -
It's all about efficiency...
Survivors have 1.0-2.2 charges per second
Killers have 2.5% instant regression and then .25 charges per second
Then adding in perks (and that is a lot of number and math that I don't want to do)
Then adding in Items and Addons (again it's a lot of numbers and math that I don't want to do)
So there are some things that can be done... but it's going to seem one sided
Either:
Increase the Gen charges to 100 while making 25%, 50%, 75% of Gen progress unregressible and leave the rest the same
Or decrease the Gen charges to 75-80 while adjusting the efficiency that Survivors have while watching everything else
But IDK if that'll work out the way I see it working... but it would be something
0 -
I play F1 online and its less sweaty than playing killer. We're talking about hitting apex's and driving as quickly as possible being less try hard than playing against survivors lol.
1 -
I still remember insta complete BNP... whoever thought of that was just.....why? Lol
0 -
Totems for my inner healing
0 -
Well those are just people we don't consider for anything
0 -
Healing? In this meta!? Touché
0 -
circle of healing absolutely did not slow down the game. spending a minute to set up your boon was hardly a problem when that boon agve everyone on your team self care, eliminating the need for altruistic healing entirely.
0 -
This is just purely incorrect.
The time to find a totem, bless (14-28 seconds), travel to the boon, and spend 22s healing is all gone.
That happened with multiple survivors every game, several times per game. That's *minutes* of game time not spent on gens (that's now spent entirely in gens injured).
Killers are always screaming for 'another objective' for survivors to do in games. There was one, and people cried and got it deleted.
6 -
you are completely misunderstanding what makes self healing strong compared to altruism. Self healing was and still is stronger than altruism because its ONE person off gens compared to TWO. A regular altruistic heal is 16s. 16s of 2 survivors off gens. Thats around 32% opportunity cost of gen progress that will take another 16s to gain with both survivors on gens. A self heal takes the full 32% except your teammate is on gens the whole time, so comparitively it is objectively better. And unlike altruism, you have an aura on exactly where you need to go to heal so theres a massive time save there. Not to mention CoH made injury pressure completely worthless. Survivors were never vulnerable because they all had self care from one person bringing one perk. Self care on its own wasnt anything special, but given to your entire time for the cost of one? absolutely.
The current "injured" meta is infinitely better than the CoH meta because at least people are actually ever injured outside of hitting them in chase. you can actually choose to leave a chase knowing that survivor will provide you with some good slowdown and maybe be an easy down later because CoH isnt making everyone perma healthy.
1 -
You are fundamentally misunderstanding.
The self heal of 22s with an already established boon was not replaced with a 16 second altruistic heal that takes 2 survivors (your 32s of survivor time). That's what killers misunderstood before the nerf and apparently some people still wrongfully think that's what should be happening.
The 22s of healing was replaced by NOT HEALING AT ALL. Those 22 seconds (and all of the associated blessing and travel times) are now spent injured on gens instead of wasted on a health states that would be too inefficient to focus on.
Killers were drooling at the thought of making 'healing less efficient', thinking that survivors would be forced to group up and waste even more time healing without the boon. But that's absolutely not what happened in a large majority of the cases. Survivors said, 'oh healing is a waste of time now' and largely don't do it at all. That's 100% clear from the meta.
7 -
Fine with me. Its much better for the killer that people are staying injured, thus being easier to down, rather than never being injured while being efficient on gens. MFT is annoying and all but the strongest killers ignore it so if I really want it gone I can just play blight or spirit and enjoy playing against 0 SB's or lithes while getting free downs because nobody heals.
1 -
You do realise that staying injured on 4 people gives the killer quite a good opportunity to snowball? Not only is this good for stealth killers that often get the first hit rather easily but also for killers that want to snowball, like Nurse, Oni, Blight, Spirit, you could even argue for Huntress.
The change did not really make it possible to stay on gens, you always had the option to stay on generators and do them injured... So there is two options now, either coh was a perk that effectively helped killers and the entirety of dbd had a meta that harmed them more or and this is more likely, you are wrong and the perk was actually helping them with unlimited resets and taking pressure off of the team so they could keep doing generators while they solo heal with coh...
Also how do we get to 22 seconds? With 100% would be a 16 second heal, 50% would be 32 seconds would it not? So how exactly did we get 22 seconds?
0 -
Holy cow, we still don't understand circle of healing even after it's death.
Circle of healing used to allow the 'self care' action, which comes with an inherent reduced heal speed of 50% that's applied after every other bonus. Circle had a +50% increased heal speed before the nerf, which was when it still had self care.
So 50% * (100% + 50%) gives a 75% total heal speed while self caring in the circle boon. That's also why the healing bar was still red despite circle having 'a bonus' to heals: you weren't healing yourself faster than 1c/s.
Since healing takes 16 charges, with circle at .75 charges per second, it's 16/(.75) = 21.333 seconds for a survivor to fully self care in a circle boon.
3 -
That makes it even more efficient than I thought... Great rounding btw. 21.333 ~ 22... I would get to 21 seconds there but whatever ^^
The point stays though, circle of healing allowed for overall more efficiency with healing and doing gens, and like I said before, you already had the choice to just stay injured and heal if you wanted it ...
0 -
The problem with COH was the ability to solo heal at close to medkit speed, and without an actual limit which greatly increased survivor effeciency.
In regular gameplay a single COH could provide atleast 5-6 Self heals at 21~ seconds per.
Now, while a team heal takes 16 seconds, thats effectively 32 charges you're not putting into a gen.
Simplified math tells us that 1 self heal (21 charges not on a gen) allowed you to "gain" 11 charges of gen time compared to a team heal.
After 5 COH heals you've effectively "gained" 55 charges of gen time.
Now this is the simplified version, if you start including the fact that while you're healing, your teammate is free to pump 21 charges into the generator, it skyrockets from a +55 effeciency gain to ~ +200 effeciency just thanks to not needing a teammate to heal.
1 -
That 21.3 seconds does not account for time spent finding the totem and booning it, nor does it account for time spent travelling to and from the totem's radius in order to actually get the benefit of it.
That's something people still don't get: Putting CoH out of the way is not actually beneficial to the survivors since you lose out on travel time what you gain on heal time. Overall, I doubt CoH was very efficient, it's just that the cost of CoH was not in-your-face while the benefit is.
It should've had its heal speed bonus ONLY affect altruistic healing and it would've honestly fixed the entire perk, but it instead just got deleted outright.
Now this is the simplified version, if you start including the fact that while you're healing, your teammate is free to pump 21 charges into the generator, it skyrockets from a +55 effeciency gain to ~ +200 effeciency just thanks to not needing a teammate to heal.
It wouldn't be 21 seconds saved, it would still be 11, you're double dipping.
It's either 2 x 16 or 1 x 21.3. That's 32 vs 21.3, so that's a difference of roughly 11 seconds. Though again, this is not counting travel time, nor is it counting boon time.
I also feel like there should be a bit of a disclaimer when it comes to discussing the value survivor perks give: It is a perk. It is meant to give a benefit, not break even.
6 -
This plus the fact that gens were 80s to complete while now it's 90. So we should go to 100s now? Playing survivor is just watching bars move. Gens, healing nerf. Nope, I'm loving killer rn.
Until tunneling is nerfed I don't think killer needs anything. I played since 2019.
1 -
That's what happens when people play killer and never get to experience Mikaela going on a 2 min totem hunt, when she doesn't even bring small game or something to locate the totems faster. Not to mention when the boon got snuffed and Mikaela would drop her gen to go bless the totem again, or when 2 people brought CoH in the same game. It's why I disliked Mikaela back then, despite playing her myself.
5 -
So finding a teammate that heals you without running around the map aimlessly does not cost any time? The point about CoH was that not only it allowed you to relatively efficienty heal yourself, it also was a guaranteed place where you could heal, not like finding a teammate where you don't necessarily know where to go to and might even spend more time than those up to 20 seconds or whatever it is ... And 20 seconds is probably the most you will have, that's 80 m so it would have to be on the complete opposite of the map...
0 -
I feel like this is exactly the issue.
I try to play in the way I consider "best". I'm not trying to end the trial early or draw it out forever. Best games are when I get survivors that's feel the same way. They could hit gens and hide when I patrol and probably win. I could tunnel and probably win.
It's way more fun when both sides want action and POINTS.
Sure kills and escapes should matter, but a survivor that carries a whole team or sacrifices themselves to get the others out, that's no loser, that's the person that decided the match. I don't play survivor, but if I did, I'd want to be a player that sometimes dies to pull a win for my team. That would make me feel like a winner, that's power.
2 -
I do appreciate this
But I do want to add that even if they add more to the MMR then that would make it even harder for players to play without a unranked gamemode
Cause being graded for every game that is played gets tiring after a while...
1 -
First of all, even unranked games have a hidden rating players so matchmaking can work, second there is no reason to worry more about some hidden mmr number then than now and third, I don't see why it would get tiring at all, because in all games with unranked mode people don't care about how the game goes and try out stuff, but effectively our current system is unranked mode, both have hidden mmr to make matchmaking possible and people don't play all to serious, doing archives, daily and so on... I don't really see that changing...
0 -
So finding a teammate that heals you without running around the map aimlessly does not cost any time?
Generally speaking, no. In most cases where you are injured, either you are in chase and thus cannot heal anyway, or you are being pulled off the hook by another survivor so you're right with someone.
And even then, you can hop onto a gen and hope another survivor will come for the gen you're working on, meaning the time spent finding another teammate isn't being wasted.
And 20 seconds is probably the most you will have, that's 80 m so it would have to be on the complete opposite of the map...
In order for the self-heal to be inefficient, you'd need to lose 11 seconds, not 20, because that will bring the self-heal timer to 32 seconds, which is equal to the amount of time lost on a normal altruistic heal.
11 seconds of survivor movement would be 44 meters, but that's split over the 'to' and the 'from'. If you're injured next to a gen and you need to move 20 meters to the totem to heal and then 20 meters to get back to the gen, CoH has saved you only 1 effective second, and you'd need to get SIXTEEN self-heals out of it in order to break even.
3 -
What was unhealthy about Undying? It was only used in combo with Ruin, because the stacks reset on every cleanse. So what was problematic about that?
0 -
This is so well said and on point! Finally someone speaks some truth! Only two things I can think of to add to your comment.
Killers also complained so hard about looping that many killers now have (anti loop powers/add ons) and maps are being reworked with unsafe, completely useless pallets/tiles with large dead zones as well.
They also complained hard about (Stealthing/hiding) too, so now there are a bunch of (aura reading/screaming perks) so that killers can always know where survivors are without having to actually search the map to find them.
Killers on these forums complain about EVERYTHING survivors do! Especially when they happen to finally lose one or two trials out of however many they just won in a row.. It's beyond ridiculous now.
7 -
Perhaps having a hex as powerful as ruin without the drawback of being a hex was a problem?
7
