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We're going on 5 months that MFT is still unchanged
Comments
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I'm grouping them together because they do do the same thing. There is a range around your character where things will be revealed to you; the difference is what they reveal.
Knowing where your teammate is allows for a much greater show of skill expression in your decisionmaking than confirmation of resources you already had the ability to know about. Far more. It may not be directly in chase all the time (though it undeniably is chase efficiency sometimes), but it's easily as strong, if not stronger.
Windows and pallets are never hidden from the survivor. They may be obstructed by a wall or something in any specific chase, but the survivor almost certainly has seen them beforehand. Survivors don't just exist in chase and nothing else, they walk and run between generators, to get unhooks, to evade the killer, to do killer-specific actions, to seek totems- and during that time, they have eyes and they can see the map, which means they know where the resources are. WoO adds literally zero extra benefit in this regard, save for maybe if they are the very first survivor chased in a match and that chase happens very quickly.
The only thing WoO actually does beyond what you'd have available anyway is tell you which resources have been used by teammates already, which is nice but hardly overpowered. I really don't get why any killer player would complain about WoO when it means that perk slot isn't being used for anything actually impactful- it's not a real chase perk, it's not an info perk for info they wouldn't have otherwise, it's not a generator perk, it's not a healing perk.
If anything, WoO being more meta just gives you more use for sources of Blindness. It's really not an unhealthy perk at all.
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do you ever read what you type... "they do the same thing, they only show different auras!!" my guy... that means they are different perks with very different effects. thats like trying to claim UW and Hoarder do the same thing because of the loud noise notification.. good god, survivor mental gymnastics are at an all time high.
Again, claiming "Pallets aren't hidden, just obstructed by a wall or another object" thats the textbot definition of "hidden".
Are we seriously trying to twist and change the dictionary just so it fits the survivor narrative?
WOO is non-interactive, and all it promotes is the gameplay loop of Run to yellow aura, Predrop/Vault Yellow aura , Run to next yellow aura, rinse and repeat. this is fundamentally unhealthy and monotonous.
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Okay, first of all, we'll need to cover a quick correction here - I am a killer player. I do play survivor sometimes, but I primarily play killer and I am arguing from a killer perspective here.
Second: I am arguing that Windows and Bond have the same design, and do the same general thing, with the key difference being what is revealed. If Windows is problematic because it's wallhacks on something you can already see without it, why is Bond not a problem for being wallhacks on something you can't already see without it? This even notwithstanding that what Bond reveals is the stronger aura, because it allows you to be more efficient and make better decisions for the macro game.
Third: When I say that pallets and windows aren't hidden, I pretty clearly meant in general. Those resources are not something you have to uncover, they're just there. You can see them every time you pass them. When you see them, you're more than capable of keeping a mental note of them. Windows just cuts down on how many mental notes you need to keep in mind mid-chase, which may be kind of boring but isn't unhealthy or overpowered.
Lastly: I may or may not agree with you about Windows being non-interactive and boring, but considering that what you're describing isn't exclusively possible due to Windows + can and does happen without it, why exactly is the perk the problem? It doesn't enable this gameplay, it doesn't make this gameplay more efficient, it doesn't even encourage this gameplay. It's just... also there while this gameplay happens.
From the perspective of a killer player, Windows is a giant red herring. It's like Prove Thyself was until that got nerfed, but even moreso; it is not making your games harder. It is not unhealthy, overpowered, or in need of a nerf. Clamouring to nerf it isn't going to achieve anything, it's a waste of time on our end and a waste of resources on BHVR's.
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"Problem is, survivors only consider perks to be "good" if they are beyond busted."
Problem is, what is "good" or "average" or what is "healthy" or "unhealthy" changes depending of the person.
From my point of view many of your "healthy" "good" perks are average at best. They all lack consistency or does not provide much value. The only one i can agree it might be meta one day is Bond.
And many of your "unhealthy" perks are perks that have been in dbd for years and only now are suddenly getting nerf posts because the real busted perks have been all nerfed.
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MFT isn't fun to play against because it makes chases against good players feel unfair as M1 killer. Solution, play dirtier? Isn't the whole point of the balancing to make playing without tunneling and camping every match a viable option, even against good players?
I'm doubting if you yourself have faced strong survivors running MFT while you were playing a weaker killer. If you haven't you should, because your perspective would change. It is very noticeable how much more they can exhaust tiles before dropping pallets/leaving tile, and how long it takes to catch up.
It's like old DH before the unhook nerf. Sure, as a survivor it feels fine. What's 15-30 extra seconds in chase? Then you play killer and eat 15 Dead Hards in a match, plus the stupid waiting, and you start to see the problem.
I know my post is already long but another lame thing is, you can't really tell who has MFT until you've chased them for a bit and you pay attention to the distance you're not making. Frustrating, unfun, and "tunnel harder" is not good advice nor a good solution to this perk.
Don't even get me started on MFT + Hope if you're not playing a top tier killer.
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survivor consider perk good when they produce consistent desired game-winning effect. MFT is a consistent game-winning effect. the perk extends chase time if the player is good at looping. resilience+deja vu is another game-winning effect. it increases repair speed by 15%. it is not 100% consistent due to resilience requiring being injured but being injured is relatively common in current dbd. Hope and Adrenaline are also game-winning effects that trigger in end game. assuming you win, it is consistent.
the other perks that you named are well... the opposite. they're inconsistent effect that are not as desired and coincidentally not game-winning. what you consider easy mode for survivor is what survivor consider regular mode. It is like survivor saying that you should play trapper as chasing killer and not play blight because blight is easy mode.
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MFT is fine, maybe just get better? I play mostly low tier killers and don't even have issues, I can't imagine how easy it is for top tiers like wesker or blight.
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yes... and producing a "consistent game winning effect" is the pinpoint defininion of "overpowered" , Your skill and ability should determine the chances of you winning, being able to equip MFT+Resi and being carried by the perks shouldn't be a thing.
The other perks i've named provide game influencing effects that require minimal brain usage to pull off, thats the epitome of what all perks should be.
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And people do consider blight to be easy mode... because he fundamentally is, theres some skill when it comes to bump logic and techs, but fundamentally blight gameplay is just *run fast*.
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Pain Res, PGTW and Corrupt via your own logic, are game winning effects and are thereby OP.
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I've played against a couple of competitive players who were all using it several months ago.
Was the game hard because of MFT or was it hard because they were competitive quality players?
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If Blight is mid, who are the top 3 killers in your opinion?
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It does not need a nerf simply because it's popular.
It being unfun to play against is something to take note of, but is honestly more on the player.
Maps being an issue is a separate issue from MFT. Same argument as WoO.
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Why do you always try to spin things to make up a narrative?
Pain res, Pop and corrupt aren't "consistent" nor "Game winning".
they are all extremely inconsistent , you have Pain res with only 4 uses and some of those uses can be wasted on a non-over 25% gen.
Pop has 12 uses max (Realistically 8 because after 8 hooks someones dead and the game is closing up) + the charge removal it provides is anywhere from + 0.3 to + 25~ (Granted you find a progressed gen to kick)
Corrupt literally deactivates itself after a down and becomes a dead slot, and the survivor even if corrupt is up for the full 180s can still do any of the 4 other gens.
They all fall under the "Small basekit buff worth using" rule.
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They are literally game winning perks if you're a decent player and that's fine.
I really do wonder how much more biased you can be.
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Ok. So you tell me that a perk that has two effects that could be stand alone perks, one being very unhealthy, is absolutely fine. Ok.
Agree to disagree.
We know a nerf is coming. I can only hope it the right one.
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I believe I've been on the record in saying that it shouldn't have both effects. The Endurance doesn't fit the perk and should be removed.
For the record, Endurance after pick-up is a terrible standalone effect. Hence why you never see Buckle Up without FTP.
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my point is that every perk is a tool and player use most powerful tools to leverage an advantage. equipping MFT does not make you instant win as survivor. you need to use MFT as a tool to leverage an advantage in chase.
this is why I am using blight as symbol. your last sentence is like saying - playing blight should not net you free wins. being carried by a killer power should not be a thing. they should just get good at playing m1 trapper. neither player is getting carried. they're using tools to win the game. there is skill component in using MFT as there is a skill component in using good killer powers.
The other perks i've named provide game influencing effects that require minimal brain usage to pull off, thats the epitome of what all perks should be.
saying fogwise is a good perk is like saying m1 trapper is a good killer.
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Yes... perks are supposed to be tools to assist you... not straight up carry you out the gate with how strong they are.
Equipping MFT alone, makes sure that even in a pure shift W chase you can milk an extra 6 seconds in a 30 second chase, theres no "tool to leverage" you're just ... running faster....
And yes, fogwise falls into the Good and healthy category, it doesn't carry you , it gives you information on the killers whereabouts , what you do with that information is up to you. theres no permanent buff to chasing.
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You're bringing up blight to strawman, like i've said, yes blight on basekit makes the game easier because hes well.. faster, but theres still a skill component to Bump logic and his techs. whole different ball game between Blight being a stronger basekit killer and MFT+Resi on their own carrying you trough chase without you needing basic brain function.
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so what makes MFT not a "Small basekit buff worth using" rule? is there something wrong with pure shift-w chases where you describe the survivor milking 6 seconds in a 30 second chase? yes i am running faster and looping better. I have no clue what kind of expectations your looking for in regards to survivor gameplay. that is how survivor looping works.
And yes, fogwise falls into the Good and healthy category, it doesn't carry you , it gives you information on the killers whereabouts , what you do with that information is up to you. theres no permanent buff to chasing.
yeah it is pointless perk. it is why nobody uses it.
whole different ball game between Blight being a stronger basekit killer and MFT+Resi on their own carrying you trough chase without you needing basic brain function.
what is so different about the ball game? the first is power improving killer base-kit and second is perks improving the survivor base-kit. survivor do not have base-kit powers. their powers are their perks. it would help if you did not belittle the survivor gameplay. equipping chase perks makes chases stronger for survivor. who would guessed that one?
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because mft is not a "small buff to basekit" its a 20-30% chase extension for free that you have permanently.
We're not talking about a perk like Brutal strength that lets you save 0.5 seconds per pallet or iron maiden that saves you a couple seconds when opening a locker, thats a *small basekit buff*
We're talking about a perk that you get massive and extremely free value just because you equipped the perk then pressed the combined total of 2 keys those keys being shift + W and now you get to milk an extra 20-30% of the killers time, and in the absolute worst case for killer, you make a pallet / window you didn't deserve because of the speed, and now instead of 20-30% extra you're up to 200-300% extra time in chase.
Survivor gameplay is literally that simple, Gen repair simulator 2023 half the time, and Shift W to yellow aura on the other half.
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facts
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so if i hold-w correctly as survivor. i should not be rewarded? a vast majority of survivor's impact in the chase is running forward at the correct time. your absolute worst case is survivor's planned absolute best case. survivor looping is all about planning ahead of time routes to loop the killer in seemingly endless motion. that is why MFT is as good as it is for a strong looper because it enhances that gameplay. that is also why Window of opportunity is most picked perk because it shows resources to do the planned looping.
Survivor gameplay is literally that simple, Gen repair simulator 2023 half the time, and Shift W to yellow aura on the other half.
you are correct. the survivor gameplay is that simple. why does it need a nerf? for many survivor that play survivor, the looping is the most fun aspect of playing survivor and MFT enables you to win by looping. from my perceptive, weakening that perk will reduce survivor's fun factor.
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Here is to many more.
Instead of nerfs, ask for buffs. I am not a fan of perk bloat, and that's most certainly how it feels right now.
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Let's create a perk for a Killer like: Gain X% (1 or 1.5%) speed per every Survivor injured. Hm? It's just X meters of distance, who cares?
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MFT does open up the opportunity for stupid plays. I ran an uncloaked Wraith around a log in Yamaoka 3 times and he missed his lunge attack twice because of MFT. This was not some baby Wraith, just your average player who tried not to tunnel.
Stupid plays like this really shouldn’t exist and work.
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Speed perks between killer and survivor aren't equal, though. The killer already moves faster, and already has tools for closing distance in a lot of cases unrelated to perks.
That's not to say all hypothetical speed perks for survivor would be balanced, to be clear, but there are reasons why a small increase would be balanced for survivors and not for killers.
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I feel comparing hyperfocus to MFT isn't a good comparison. While yes, a strong survivor will get far more value from it, an average player will always find value in some form. While certain killer powers can counter its distance sustaining ability, any situation where you shouldn't use your power is a situation that will take 20% to end (in essence at least). This is most notable on tight pallet loops where that 20% number can give you more loops around, and W gaming. Any non nurse/blight/spirit killer will have a bad time dealing with MFT on pallet loops, and even nurse will struggle against a MFT W gamer. Skilled players take this tenfold and break the game for the majority of the roster. This is in stark contrast to hyperfocus, whereas a bad player will get zero value and even give the killer regression going for the greats while a skilled player will save a good amount of time, but not that much without a toolbox. And if you've got a cracked toolbox then thats whats really getting that time save and hyperfocus is unnecessary.
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3% speed while injured never should be a thing in dbd - that's what I meant
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Sure, but your argument was a poor one.
I disagree with that too, I think the speed on MFT is fine (with an asterisk), but that's not really what I was responding to.
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Like 5% per stack up to 15% just for being in chase?
Make it base kit and call it bloodlust.
Oh, wait. That's apparently too difficult for a number of killers to actually manage as a part of the killer kit.
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Whole game is balanced around 100% speed. If you think 3% MFT is fine, you are completely wrong. Just like I said. Give a Killer 1/1.5% speed per every Survivor injured - this perk (with your logic) will be also fine.
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He? What are you talking about right now?
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Assuming this is aimed at my earlier response to you, apologies if it isn't!
As I said, there are reasons why a speed perk would be unbalanced for a killer but not for a survivor. Killers already move faster, have the Bloodlust mechanic at base to increase that movement speed further, and commonly have powers which aid in closing the distance for an attack already. Survivors have none of these tools, they just have how fast they can move.
The whole game is actually balanced around that 100% speed number changing a lot. It's the baseline, it's not the absolute. Killers already move faster than 100%, and survivors have historically had a lot of methods for making themselves move faster too. Conditional speed boosts are nothing new, this one's just over time instead of in a burst.
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Survivors have the resources of the map to gain distance, saying they have nothing is just wrong
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Did you read the context behind that at all?
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Well, yes, that's kind of what I meant by moving faster. That isn't happening in a vacuum, typically the survivor and the killer are in a sort of race towards the nearest resource; both want to reach it first, the survivor to make distance with it, the killer to get a hit.
What I mean is that survivors don't have any core base mechanic to make distance other than the map itself. They don't have Bloodlust, they don't gain any distance holding forward in a straight line (and in fact lose distance that way), and they don't have any powers to help them out there either.
My point is, certain Haste numbers/implementation would be unbalanced on the killer side but totally fine on the survivor side, for those reasons.
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And in the meantime UW got released. Maybe you should take a hint that BHVR is forcing for an interactive heavy playstyle for both sides. UW has even lower skill floor than MfT AND it benefits mobile killers much more.
All games have meta, sometimes the meta is slow and boring (gen kick meta), other times more exciting. ANd during those metas not every survivor/killer/champion/character/fighter is meta.
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Interaction will occur regardless of the existence of MFT. MFT makes that interaction (the chase) even more dull because it removes so much nuance from it.
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Yes
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Ays’s suggestion was not a serious one, it was trying to point out the flaw with mft. Perks that affect speed are fine when done right yes, but a permanent 3% boost changes a lot of interactions and isn’t healthy for the game, saying killers have bloodlust and powers isn’t a good argument
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You're right, when I got ht by Eruption I was indirectly interacting with the killer. How could I not think of that?
The more time you spent chasing someone with MFT the more chances you have to mindgame them than when you were spending time kicking gens or they working on gens. Just cause you find something boring doesn't mean that it's not more interactive compared to something else. It's also why stealth got nerfed during this time for survivor and UW counters it, so survivors can't be uninteractive either.
To deny that gen kicking meta or survivors playing extremely stealthy is less interactive than current meta is to be willingly blind.
if you've had any experience playing League of Legends then you should have noticed that the devs decide if they want a slow game or a fast game by either buffing or nerfing tanks/mages/adc/assassins. Even if something starts out exciting at first it's bound to get stale after a while, it's the nature of many games. If they bring out a busted perk tomorrow for killers that you can play in 5 different ways people will be excited at first and then they'll optimize the hell out of it and be stuck with only 1 or 2 combinations and that'll still be dull then.
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Right, but if it's a bad argument, it doesn't successfully point out any flaws at all. It didn't relate to any flaws with MFT that may exist, because it's just not an accurate or realistic argument.
The arguments used here do still need to not be wrong.
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What are you even talking about? Who brought Eruption up? MFT removes all incentive for killers to mindgame because winning a mindgame means nothing with MFT (unless if you have Bloodlust and they don't make a pallet) and losing a mindgame means you lose even more distance. Playing against MFT as an M1 killer incentivizes just holding down W into pallet after pallet and creating a deadzone, because survivors are more likely to greed them with MFT (and odds are, they make it around too).
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Show me an example where winning a mindgame to MFT is actually a losing situation for killer then. Because to me it feels they added MFT because maps keep getting weaker and weaker for survivors, especially after they received general nerfs last summer (like gaining less distance when hit). If they didn't add it to counter top tier killers like Nurse and Blight, they probably added it for other killers. Their decision is not an accident and last year around this time when the released killrate stats people did everything in their power not to admit that killers where actually in a pretty good spot and doing well even in top 5% MMR, which killers always claim is hard to play cause survivors are good or playing in SWFs etc. And they never did a breakdown of builds, so we don't really know the true killrate of perk combos like Eruption + CoB + 3rd regression perk, that any killer could use. It's also true that among those most affected by all of this were solo survivors who do make up a significant part of the playerbase as much as killer mains would like to avoid addressing.
MFT is a perk that gains value in the hands of a good survivor, or at least a survivor that is better in chase than the killer. If we can accept Nurse and Blight being in game cause skill floor or something, then I don't understand why good survivors can't have something similar. I would bet you survivors with 4 tool boxes and gen-related perks probably win a lot more games than someone bringing MFT+Resilience.
You also have yet to address BHVR decision to add a strong perk like UW in the game or the fact that they want the meta to be chase oriented and everything seems to point that way.
I'm going to mention this again after I've done a bunch of time, the game does not consist only of M1 killers Nurse, Blight, Wesker. there are other killers such as Artist, Plague, Huntress, Oni, Pinhead that don't care about it. GF and Myers also can bypass MFT altogether, that is the whole point of their power. Leatherface and as well. Billy too but he has other issues. Pig even got her old strat back with the release of UW. Trapper got buffed, Sadako got reworked and she's been pretty strong and even last year she had a surprisingly high winrate that people were in denial about. Wraith doesn't care cause he has speed boost. SK didn't even care about MFT until recently. Who does that leave? Doctor maybe?
Or are you gonna tell me now that you play killers addonless and perkless and don't tunnel or camp and everytime you kill someone you do a little dance on your chair?
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Sure thing. Playing an M1 killer on shack without Bloodlust. If you manage to mindgame the window perfectly and vault it as a survivor crosses over it, without MFT, they make it to about the center of the shack before you get the hit. With MFT, they make the vault comfortably. You MIGHT get an extreme pokos if you catch them very early on (basically as they're crossing the window from right to left), but Resi guarantees the vault either way. In this situation, mindgaming is detrimental and you're better off just eating the 3 vaults until entity blocks the window. Same thing with filler pallets, any time you double back, you lose distance. You're better off just zoning straight towards the emptier area and just eating the pallet.
MFT was most definitely not added to counter Blight and Nurse as it does absolutely nothing for them, and only hurts the weaker killers.
Maps keep getting weaker? Kinda like Toba Landing with its disgusting main, Nostromo, Borgo, and Garden of Joy? Or the reworked Mother's Dwelling that somehow made one of the safest maps in the game even safer?
MFT gives value regardless of the survivor's skill. It's a perk that gives GUARANTEED value as long as you get injured throughout the game at least once. It lets you make pallets you wouldn't otherwise, or windows you wouldn't otherwise, or simply wastes more of the killer's time by just holding down W.
Why are you still going on about Eruption? Eruption was never part of this conversation. Drop this sidebar, whatever you're driving at.
I'm not going to address UW, because this isn't a conversation about UW. This is a conversation about MFT. I think UW is problematic on its own (although to a much lesser degree than MFT) but that's a different conversation completely. This is a thread about MFT, stay on topic.
Artist gets hurt by MFT, as does Plague, Huntress, Oni, and Pinhead to a lesser degree. Plague is the 2nd tallest M1 killer in the game when she's out of power. She has to play around MFT basically 90% of the match. Artist's main counter is hold W, which MFT significantly helps with. Oni out of power is a pure M1 killer, and if he's wasting time following you around with MFT picking up blood orbs, gens are gonna pop very fast. Huntress around any filler tile with long walls with MFT is an absolute nightmare to play against. You're forced to respect the pallet over and over again and hope you get lucky with the one time where you pull up, or respect, that it happens to be when they drop the pallet. You're essentially forced to eat the pallet. GF and Myers can bypass it assuming they have a 99. Outside of it, they still have to chase normally. Bubba can either try to force a chainsaw hit (gonna take forever with how maps are designed nowadays), or go for an M1 at some point on a medium vault and play into MFT. There is no winning scenario. At this point, you're essentially just rambling and namedropping killers saying "oh well they don't even mind MFT" when the truth is, yes, they do.
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Genuine question, because I'm pretty sure I must be missing something regarding your argument here- what exactly changes for Oni in your example here with the addition of MFT?
If following the survivor around to collect blood orbs means gens are going to fly too fast, surely that's just true of Oni regardless of MFT, right? The point isn't actually to catch them in this scenario, it's to get your power, at which point I'm sure you agree Oni won't care about MFT at all.
But, if you are just collecting your power, doesn't that mean gens fly for Oni anyway whether MFT is in play or not?
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You want to get a down eventually, don't you? Or is your entire point to get orbs? If you just wanna collect orbs, that's fine, but you're giving up gens for free essentially. If you want the down, you're playing as an M1 killer into MFT, unless if you're willing to pop power over an injured survivor, in which case, by all means.
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With UW, you have to find a locker, all by yourself. It does not come looking for you.
With MFT the killer assists you in activation.
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But isn't that kind of the value proposition for Oni anyway? Slow start, then a spike in power that makes up for the lost time with heavy potential to snowball?
I'm hardly the most distinguished Oni player around, I'll admit, but that is kind of how you're meant to play him from what I can gather. You hit someone early on, follow them to get a few orbs, and then peel away to hit someone else and build up your power that way if an easy opportunity for a down doesn't present itself.
I don't think Oni is meant to be going for M1 downs unless he has to. Default M1 chasing may be where MFT would help more here, but Oni already doesn't really want to do that specifically because his power is that strong when he has it.
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Sure. M1 someone, chase until you get a down, then snowball with power. But what happens when that first chase takes 4 gens and everyone stealths out your power? What happens when the injured person all of a sudden runs at 103% and you're forced to pick between either chasing as an M1 killer eating pallet after pallet or popping your power over an injured survivor for your first hook?
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