Is it Time to Basekit NOED?
Ok the title is more of an attention grabber, and to check who actually will read the body here, so let me list the pre-req first before I've lost your attention. Basekit NOED when there are no dead Survivors going into endgame. I'll get into the nitty gritty details below.
I've off-handedly mentioned this in other threads on various topics, but I've finally decided to make it a thread on its own. Many people complain about the gens going to fast, so they feel like they have to tunnel someone out, or gen speeds need to be adjusted solo or coop, or their wife left them because they've spent too much time in the game, so nerf Survivor. Ok maybe not that last one, but still, complaints about the Killer experience / game speed are plenty common. So I tried to think of something that would help Killers that TRULY need the help, but not needlessly hurt the Survivor experience at the same time. So I figured, maybe basekitting NOED would help.
Now for a basekit NOED to not just be utter bull schenanigans, it would need to hurt genrushers, but not impact normal matches. So with that, what do we need? Well first, all Survivors would probably need to be alive. Also, to not simply give the Killer a free win, we likely would need to have some disabling circumstances. A Killer shouldn't be able to bring 4 other endgame perks and get NOED for a free 5th perk. So basekit NOED would be active in endgame only while there are 4 standing Survivors. If 1 Survivor is downed/on hook/dead, the basekit version will not be active, and death will disable the totem altogether like Ruin. The totem would still be active, but the perk effects would not be.
Now assuming someone says something along the lines of "I'm just a normal Survivor player, I shouldn't be punished for a Killer being bad at the game", then I agree, you can cleanse all 5 totems if you fear a basekit NOED. Hopefully this will give the Killer more time to actually hunt down the Survivors and feel like they had a fighting chance. If Survivors 'HAVE' to pre-cleanse all the totems, that takes 70s on the totems, and lets underestimate 20s to search and walk over to reach all 5. That gives the weaker Killers who need extra time essentially a 6th gen. But even if the Survivors see the Killer is turbo tunneling the Meg out of the game, they can bypass the totems and purposely only pump gens instead. This way, spreading the pressure (the desired gameplay) encourages cleansing totems to waste essentially an extra gen's worth of time.
Now what if the Killer decided to also bring the perk NOED? Well we have a few paths to take here. One is to have it function like an Undying, and both totems work as a full power perk NOED. Another path is have the perk and basekit function independently and stack. The final path is the perk overrides the basekit and is always a single perk going into endgame. (There could also be in-betweens for these that others might come up with.)
Just to lay out the rules again, here is just basekit NOED's rules.
Basekit NOED: When no Survivors are dead going into endgame, basekit NOED spawns. While a Survivor is in the dying state or on hook, the totem is lit, but inactive. If basekit NOED was active, then a Survivor dies by any means, then the totem disables like Ruin.
Comments
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Absolutely horrible idea.
1, pentimento exists
2, you are padding kill rate for no good reason. If killer got screwed up by matchmaking, it's better he gets 4-outed so that his MMR quickly normalizes
3, this is definition of a clutch. Killer lost the game, but you want to hand him free kill regardless
4, kill rate is still above 50%. Why do you ask to buff killers? SoloQ needs help much more
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Giving killers basekit NOED is like giving survivors basekit Hope.
But even then basekit Hope makes more sense. Because you're rewarding survivors for repairing all gens and surviving until end-game vs. rewarding killer for their lack of ability to sacrifice all survivors before all gens were done and just existing until end-game which doesn't require you to do anything but fail.
I'm not advocating for basekit Hope. I just know the reaction it would get to suggest such a thing and try to show a different point of view where even having basekit Hope (which is absurd) would be fairer and more logical than basekit NOED.
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Well tunneling isn't a thing during end-game so I'm not sure how this would help. If anyone is complaining about getting tunneled when all gens are done, it's their problem. We don't need basekit NOED. This would do nothing but destroy solo Q even more and widen the gap between solo and SWF since they'll be more coordinated and have the luxury of communicating where NOED is located at etc.
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I rather let NOED be a gamble for Survivors.
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Absolutely unrelated.
Killers are weak early game, and survivors are strong. Killers are strong during endgame, but survivors are weak.
Doing all generators doesn't give you a win, so why should it be rewarded? You're still in the game so long as you're not through the gates.
This is like saying the killer should be rewarded for each person that is dead on hook. Which, would be an interesting incentive to prevent tunneling actually.
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Once in a while I entertain the idea of NOED or something NOED-like during endgame. -- And as far as giving it thought I do think your base-description is probably the best I've seen so far / better than the ideas that came to mind. --- However, it has one (and a half) issues that usually make me abandon the idea when I give it a thought and which is why I'm ultimately not convinced basekit NOED (or something NOED-like) is the way to go to go.
The full issue I have is that every killer benefits from it - and the ones who need it the least benefit from it just as much, if not more, than those who need something to help them. That's a bit of a crux with basekit changes to killers: they're very different from each other so there very rarely is a one-size-fits-all kinda thing. (For survivor it's different: they all have the same basekit so whatever changes are made are just one size. There isn't even a fits all part.)
The half issue is that it does feel incredibly iffy as a basekit thing - more like a basekit UB (which has, as far as I can tell, been abandoned after that PTB) than basekit BT. That's not exactly tangible, so just half an issue.
Instead of making things basekit I think bringing killer to the same level is the much more promising way to achieve a dynamic endgame; by virtue of the match staying dynamic all the way to endgame. (just look at the Trapper buff; if you want to play chase Trapper you absolutely can now, since the right addons allow you to catch up to pretty much any survivor regardless of the perks they have - even someone with SB can be hit if you time correctly. You can carry two traps; that's really all the Killer-SB-On-Demand you need to down a surv and I'm near certain that if people continue to complain about Trapper being weak in the future, it's actually a skilissue and not just a meme phrase.)
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Most killers don't care about "playing nice" so this won't magically make them drop tunneling. It's going to be present in the game no matter what. If we care that much about discouraging tunneling give survivors basekit DS which would be a direct way of doing it.
Most people forget the value of haste NOED provides and so did you. I compared them based on Haste so it's not "absolutely unrelated". Survivors worked to reach end-game and get value from Hope meanwhile for Killer existing and not getting a 4k was enough (if basekit NOED was a thing).
"Why should doing all generators be rewarded?" Perks like Adrenaline(health state+sprint), Hope(permanent haste), No One Left Behind(permanent aura+altruistic bonus), Plot Twist(one more use) already do this. Survivors get a reward if they complete all gens and reach end-game. So I don't understand why or how that could be debated?
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- Fair with Pentimento, but I think in general you would only cleanse AFTER 3-4 gens are done in case a Killer turbo-tunnels, so this wouldn't hurt normal gameplay too much.
- I think the kill rates already 'assume' 1k minimum, that's why they target 60% (as endgame facecamps done correctly always will result in a kill). If the Kill is already gotten, basekit NOED won't spawn in endgame anyways as I suggest it. If BHVR's 60% isn't based around the concept of a rough 1k minimum, then I think this point is fair.
- I think you mean crutch, but yeah, I would want the dumb fun party game to have comeback mechanics for both sides in order to minimize the entirely negative experiences. I wouldn't consider this a free kill, because if the Survivors were dominating a Killer so harshly as to reach endgame without a death, they can easily have the time to cleanse 5 totems as well. If the Killer gets a kill, they don't get basekit NOED, nor does it function while anyone isn't standing. Did you not read the full rules for my proposed version? I laid them out quite cleanly at the end, and a preface in the opening paragraph mentioning the details were found below. Just as 6.1.0 basekitted T1 Brutal Strength and 2 stacks of STBFL, this would basekit a lesser version of proper full on perk NOED.
- I don't disagree that soloq needs help, but baby Killers need love too. I encourage soloq buffs as well, and buffs to the bottom 90% of perks for both sides, so I don't see this impeding that goal. This would hardly alter my (Killer) matches, as I typically win long before the gens pop, but baby Killers often express dissatisfaction with current gen timers, and I find nothing wrong with those. As far as kill rates are concerned, again, I believe BHVR balances around 60% assuming a 1k rough minimum. That is a fair position if you would want 50% to be the true fair balancing number, but my understanding is BHVR has it higher for other reasons.
I don't quite agree, as I see endgame as Killers final chance to get kills. I see Hope as a earned and deserved personal 'free-win' perk, because it only works in endgame, setting you behind a perk during the vast majority of the game. This basekit NOED doesn't function if the Killer has a single kill, so I don't think you've read the post. In particular you said "... rewarding Killer for their lack of ability to sacrifice ALL (emphasis mine) Survivors before all gens were done...". Again, this proposed basekit NOED does not function if there is a single kill going into endgame.
That's fair, I just wanted something to help weaker Killers who complain 90s is too short for gens, when I didn't even have a problem with 80s gens. This weaker basekit NOED is just meant to help the weakest of Killers who reach endgame without a kill, while not impacting what I consider 'normal' matches, which typically do have at least 1 kill before endgame.
Every Killer benefits - While this is true, I feel like it moreso helps players than Killers if you know what I mean. Also a Nurse would make far different use out of this than a Spirit for example, so I totally get Spirit doesn't need the same level of assistance the normal M1 variety would need. I feel like this mostly evens itself out though. Stronger Killers are far more likely to end up with a kill before endgame, so they rarely if ever would get to use it. Weaker Killers on the other hand would be less likely to end up with a kill before endgame, so they might get some use out of it. I'm of the opinion Spirit's hits that give the score event should count as a power hit (not a basic M1), and Blight and Artist should be 4.4 though, so some of what makes this proposal a good idea is the hope in the back of my mind that those changes would also come to fruition.
Iffy as basekit - Yeah the haste + exposed might be too much, and I'd be willing to drop the basekit version's haste and only give the Killer exposed as an effect. The idea being in endgame everyone is 1 hit from death until someone is 'secured'. I think the 45s basekit UB was a good idea, it was only the fact it was tied to the endgame Mori system that I found distasteful. The main reason being even the classical Oni slugging example allowed for downing all 4 Survs and hooking each sequentially against basekit UB without a self-pickup happening, so it was only BM that was punished (for the most part).
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Idk... I respect your design and opinion but this still doesn't sound more than "let's gift killers 1 more kill each game" or a "pity kill"... which would end up dropping escape rates and bloat kill rates even more, forcing BHVR to come up with a new concept to not make that gap so wide. Also as I mentioned this would only hurt solo Q more since SWF can be more coordinated and have the luxury of communicating where NOED is located at etc.
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NOED is in the top 10 my guy.
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I think it does not need something so drastic as base kit Noed, especially since it would affect strong and weak killers the same... So Spirit gets basically the same out of it as Trapper...
I however would like there to be a base mechanic in the game that incentives survivors to do totems, besides Noed... When the boon meta was strong people got really angry if you did dulls, which was somewhat fair but now where you hardly see any boons you have once again not really a good reason to do a totem, unless it is a hex... I think they should either make it so that hex perks stay in the game as long as a certain amount of totems are still up, and then increase the totem number by a lot so you don't have to find this one totem inside a bush in the middle of nowhere for 5 min. It would give some great game delay without the killer being able to camp the damn thing and make it impossible to cleanse, and it would prevent the Noed scenario where someone is hooked right next to Noed... So to throw out some random numbers... Let's say every map has 10 totems, all of them glow with the same intensity that let's you know how many hex perks are in the game, there is however no difference between 0 and 1 hex perk, so you can never risk free ignore them unless the killer showed you all 4 perks already . Hex perks would get weaker if more totems are cleansed, and if somewhere between 5 and 7 totems are cleansed then their effect vanishes. If it is then still a problem with finding a totem they might as well add a special map that highlights totem positions but takes like 30-40 seconds to aquire, so you don't have to search for minutes... Ofc this would not be possible to aquire from the start, but only after some totems have been cleansed.
This would require a rework of basically all hex perks in the game, however I think it would be not too hard to do. In general I'd be a huge fan of more base mechanics for both sides so you have more to do than gens, because let's be honest doing chests and dulls is a waste of time... So side objectives should at least have some value to them...
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1 more kill each game? At the bare minimum assuming the game was nothing but 50-50 4ks and 0ks, this would only make the half that are 0ks up to 1ks (assuming the Survivors only massively misplay). I guess I'm not understanding how this guarantees a kill when it doesn't even function if someone is on hook/on the floor, and disables/doesn't even spawn in the case of a Survivor death.
The aura portion of NOED would still apply to this basekit NOED, (once revealed as per the perk, but a fair argument could be made for basekit NOED always having the 24m aura range up in endgame, just as I mentioned in a separate reply how the Haste might not even be needed for basekit NOED) so even if someone goes down in endgame, you can cleanse then coordinate the unhook (even in soloq, although not all soloq teams are built the same to understand the person who takes the hit DOESN'T rescue afterwards).
In general though as Survivor, I've seen far more Survivors tank their escape rates to 0 or 1 total by attempting endgame saves, than increase it to a 4 out. This theoretically could increase escape rates because soloq teammates wouldn't be bothered to even attempt an endgame save, because finding the totem is too much work before the hook save.
I do get the 'pity kill' aspect though, and honestly, that kinda is what it is meant to be. A pity kill to shut up whiners to put it in a mean spirited way. I think of it more generously though, as a comeback mechanic for newer Killers to learn to overcome, and get kills without using it. Like I said in a different reply, this wouldn't affect my Killer matches in any meaningful capacity, as I most often win before all gens pop, or at the very least have a kill already under my belt by then.
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Sure, but its useless to say that about perks that are in the good end of used perks.
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Just say you don't care about tunneling then instead of hiding behind "It's going to stop tunneling😇" as a façade and reason for you to push basekit NOED and buff all Killers. You don't care about it because once I mentioned something that would actually discourage tunneling that doesn't involve buffing killers you became hostile right away LOL... Have a nice day.
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Well yes, that it because doing totems is incredibly boring. I would also not make it mandatory.
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I don't quite think this would make doing all 5 totems mandatory. Most matches result in a kill before endgame, so you don't even need to tap a totem if you saw Blight returning to hook, just keep it in the back of your mind while walking past. Even then, if they still don't manage to get a kill, the basekit NOED would arguably only grant a single hook. After that, the team can collectively search both the maps and their memory for totems, cleanse, and attempt the rescue for the 4 escape if they so desire. Even then, if the search isn't taking as short as expected, a low hook Survivor can hook trade instead (since the basekit NOED exposed is inactive while someone is on hook or in the dying state, so they can't prevent a trade), and start back at square 1 with partial map coverage already done.
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I think too many endgame perks would make it a problem.
Best I could recommend is it only activates when gates are opened and perks like Bloodwarden deactivate it during it's activation time.
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This lesser basekit NOED doesn't function when ANYONE is downed/on hook/dead. So assuming you knew that from my suggestion the below follows.
Ok so you're saying if a Killer intentionally doesn't kill anyone and just brings NWO+Bloodwarden+Remember Me it might be a problem? I'm not sure I entirely follow.
In circumstance 1: The Killer opens the gate and goes for a Bloodwarden play, the team has no basekit NOED active in play while the first person is downed. They can risk leaving when they (likely) know the Killer opened the gate, especially since the soloq HUD shows gate touching. If it takes too long risking the search, the slugged player can crawl to the exit anyways, so the Killer is largely on a ticking clock as well. If the Killer tries to open the gate before getting their down, they risk players stealthing past.
In circumstance 2: The Killer gets their down (whether or not they hook), but now the totem is cleanseable and inactive, and the team has all the time in the world to fight their way through NWO and Remember Me without the risk of exposed because their teammate already 'disabled' it.
I guess if the Killer was a Knockout bleedout Killer, and went for 4 slug Bleedout kill from the start they could have a slight advantage if they went into endgame without a slug, but I feel like getting that first instadown wouldn't necessarily secure the final 3 after that. Even then most bleedout Killers secure either 1 bleedout kill before endgame, or get all Survs down long before endgame becomes a factor (at least in my soloq matches).
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1, that works for SWF. But it makes soloQ even that much more problematic. Because in SWF, you can communicate totem spawns. In soloQ this is nightmare. You would also have no way to indicate "I know 2 totem spots and I will clear them - do not bother with them and search in other parts of map" - making pentimento that much stronger especially in soloQ (not that it wouldn't be really strong now as most matches would have at least some totem destroyed).
2, it most definitely isn't the case. If you even open nightlight, you would see that on average 0K happens more often (22,89%) then 1K (18,14%) - hence minimum 1 kill is just not a thing (for it to be true 0K would need to happen very rarely). Also I don't think it should ever be the case - we are talking about multiplayer game so being selected for random unfair kill (just because) does not sound fair one bit. This would be the same as having hatch/gate for last person substantially buffed so that at least 1 survivor always gets out (why would you ever do that?).
3, yes I meant crutch and I did read your whole post :) As for comeback mechanisms - we already have those. It's very much possible that killer get 0 hooks until endgame and then via successful slug and big blunder on survivor's side he can still get 4K (and with your version it would be that much easier - because basekit disables with kill - who said that all 4 survivors won't be slugged by that point?). It does not happen often, but IMO it shouldn't happen often. Same thing for the other side - every survivor gets downed and killer won. Except survivors can have unbreakable, deliverance or just pure damn luck with 4% mechanics and come back to game. Sure enough if there are 4 gens left to repair and 2 survivors are dead there's no coming back to game - but at that point I don't think we want to introduce some real comeback (just leave the hatch in game so there's a reason for survivors to not go fully AFK).
Also - I don't really want to have more comebacks then we already have, because it basically means that your actions during match are that much less meaningful, because there's always something that can turn things around making your effort until that point meaningless. But sure enough - this one is a matter of taste and I acknowledge you have different idea about that one (and that's valid).
And as for if all 4 of them had time to finish gens before everyone died - so that means they had enough time to do totems too. That's not true at all. I have a lot of games where I get to endgame with our team having 6-8 hooks already - and it's not because of killer tried to play nice, it's rather because we didn't let killer tunnel (bodyblocks, chain flashlight blinds and doing "false" scratchmarks/sounds, flashlight saves/sabo saves, etc). Especially in these cases the match can very quickly end up in all 4 survivors got to end game but none of them got out alive. This of course happens more in SWF, but it's not limited to it. At least I personally play like this also in soloQ - and if I somehow get same-minded survivors in my team, then somehow killer will swear we are SWF group.
4, I agree on all points (but 1K minimum which results in 60% kill rate).
This sounds interesting. It could make the game more spicy. But it could spoil the game just as much. As you said basically all hex perks (and boons and other perks - like inner healing) will need to be adjusted. All the maps would require a lot more totem spawn points (which means most if not all maps would need to be adjusted - like to be fair this would be nice thing regardless of this change as some maps have easy spawns, but it's still a lot of work). That's too many "moving parts". It would be too easy to make the game unplayable. But as a concept this would be very interesting and nice if done right.
Well I almost never do that since pentimento exists (there are certain cases when you are pretty sure killer has NOED so there are exceptions). Why would you spend a lot of time risking pentimento just to prevent NOED? When pentimento is arguably stronger then NOED?
Yes. Most hex perks should get buff (but say plaything is already fine. So is dhope and I am pretty much convinced also NOED is fine right now).
I say NOED is fine, because before it's last nerf best indication of killer having NOED was how good he played. If he was clearly bad for your MMR - you better do all totems because otherwise you are not getting out... NOED used to inflate kill rate (and by proxy MMR) very much. I know we could basically always tell existence of NOED by killer's looping skill by very very high significance (it was noteworthy to mention when this was not the case and said killer was just mismatched because of matchmaking fail).
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I don't necessarily think the maps would need to be readjusted for my idea, since the maps have more possible totem spawns than totems, so there would just spawn some more. As for boons yes maybe, but you could also just add something like shrines 3-4 on each map that could give boon effects. But overall it is not a small thing but a rather big update, but I really do think it is time for some new game mechanics...
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Suppose the number increases to 10 - that would basically mean all or almost all the totem spawns in maps like saloon will be used. In some cases totems would be very close to each other (1 in windmill and another one behind the rock next to road that's closest to windmill). No I think we would need way more totem spawns to mitigate problem of totems not being random at all but fixed position instead.
Overall it might be worth a shot. I just don't know if it's really feasible as it would be a lot lot of work.
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Yes I mean some maps would have close spawns together but since you don't need to do all the totems to get rid of hex effects it should still be fine... It is more about the time investment, because let's be honest running around the map for 3 minutes trying to find a totem is just boring.
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that sounds reasonable. I would probably like your idea if it got implemented (but sure devil is in details and perk adjustments would absolutely have to happen so it depends)
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I mean most perks could just decrease in strenght the more totems get cleansed for other that give you absolute things it is rather hard, like what are you going to do about haunted ground, NOED or Devour?
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- While yes, SWF would have an advantage, I don't think the advantage is insurmountable of a difference. Especially since in soloq my teammates tend to get tunneled out or otherwise get themselves killed in other ways.
- As far as 'unfairness', the game is already riddled with it. Why did the Killer give the Feng who killed us all Hatch? Why did my Devour spawn on all 4 of them on Mother's Dwelling? You have to have a certain tolerance for nuisances to play this game, and I feel this is quite tame of an ask. As far as a 'free kill', I don't consider this to guarantee a kill in the vast majority of circumstances. The only time I would think it would give a free kill, is if the Killer had 8 hooks and no one dead yet. At that point, the Killer coulda easily won (3k/4k) by toggle-tunneling instead, so I don't think that would be too egregious of a circumstance given the alternative.
- 4 Slug would require 4 injured or 3 injured 1 healthy. The basekit version would stay lit, but not give the effects while someone is downed/on hook, and completely disable when someone fully dies. I kinda feel like if the Survivors gave the Killer a 4 slug they kinda deserved to lose there. I just had a soloq against Blight match the other day, and he only killed us because my 3 soloq teammates greedily attempted flashy saves against an Agi Blight, and I was altruistic (aka stupid) enough to attempt to save them. It was a free 3 escape, and a coordinated 4 escape, but it turned into a 3k from their tomfoolery, and a 4k from me wanting to have a hero moment.
- Yeah that was my working theory (alongside 1/5 hatch escapes to bring down the average from 62.5% to 60%). I haven't heard why they decided to balance around 60%, but I have usually used it for a framework for my suggestions in general. If my ideas for the game are too far from the dev intentions, then I figure there is 0 change they could get implemented. So I gotta work within the framework allotted.
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This would make solo Q even more miserable. Also as the first post said, pentimento would break this. Your logic of "just do all the bones" falters massively because people could legit just slap penti on so if you got a team who somehow could find all the bones in time then you can unleash another wave of totems which have to be cleansed. Also I agree with the idea of a conditionless basekit no ed is unhealthy for the game because it literally only rewards killers who did bad and a good killer who got even just a kill or two will have ZERO benefit from the perk.
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As I mentioned in the other reply, you would wait until the final gen or 2 to start cleansing in order to hard counter it, so Penti wouldn't get enough mileage. Also if the Killer is turbo tunneling, you wouldn't want to waste time from the onset.
Also I didn't recommend a conditionless basekit NOED, I recommended a heavily restricted NOED to help ease weaker Killers or outmatched due to autofill Killers feel like they had a greater chance. It intentionally is only meant to rewards Killers who did bad, because it is only meant to give a couple extra hooks and minor slowdown for the Killers that need it. Skilled Killers don't need such a feature, so I had the limitations based around something most Killers wouldn't even get to use. Basically the only way this would give a free kill is when the Killer intentionally 8 hooked without a kill, and at that point, they could have placed those 8 hooks like 3/3/2/0 instead of intentionally 'playing nice' by going for 2/2/2/2. The Killer getting a free kill, could have easily won long before should they have taken their 2 free kills long before endgame, and forced the 2 Survivors to finish the remaining gens.
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We would argue for everyone becoming exposed until someone gets hit if no one is dead or on hook. No totem, a 1 time use that can help turn a match or push greed. It's still possible for survivors to outplay and can't be (horribly) abused that we can tell. Then again, we only spent 10ish min thinking about it.
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Killers are already handed free kills in the endgame, given that many anti-tunnel/camp effects are disabled during that time. Not to mention the fact that most survivors won't leave if they have a fair chance to save teammates, which often leads to additional kills. I just don't think the solution to gen-rushing is to give killers an even stronger endgame.
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Even though this would only spawn if no one is dead, and is only active while no one is on hook/in the dying state, and fully despawn after a death? I feel like a NOED cleanse (or pre-cleanse at 1 gen remaining) isn't the most difficult task to ask for a 4 escape.
As far as the 'handed free kills in endgame', that still only most commonly affects a single Survivor, as it is very rare to have 2-3 Survs running around with OTR/DS, especially going into endgame. When multiple people are on hook, it generally is a better idea to 99 the gen and have someone tap it strategically on a down, just in case they have Adren.
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This is offtopic, but I really should correct you just in case. If you finish gen right as the person with adrenaline goes down, you are just wasting his perk slot. There's a down animation and adrenaline will get postponed long enough so, that killer can hit same survivor again - which means you just robbed him of perk slot. It's better to pop the gen before the survivor goes down or once he is already on hook (so that he will be healthy on unhook).
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If you pop the gen the second someone gets downed (before the Killer finishes their hit recovery), they can run instantly. I've seen people do it in the past, and coordinated Adren on down pops with friends as well. To be fair, maybe they changed something somewhat recently, but if they haven't, then the person's perk isn't wasted because now they are back up with a 5s Sprint Burst while the Killer is still in hit recovery. I haven't done it recently so I'm not in the know, because I've been fun coordinating back to back Blast Mines instead with friends, or just normal tomfoolery. Essentially I thought (last I used it in this specific circumstance) Adrenaline bypasses the down animation, and you can run instantly even if you were falling over.
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I swapped adrenaline for breakout since 7.1.0 (to counter new hook density) so that's how fresh my information is. But talking about things from 7.0.0 - if survivor finishes gen right as you go down, you will be stuck in down animation and then a moment later killer will always be able to down you again. If killer does not expect adren, he will actually miss the timing and you will escape (but you will only get like 2.5s of your 5s sprint). But if he notices in HUD or expects it, you will be unable to get away and he can down you. 100% sure of this.
However, there is possibility to slightly postpone fixing the generator (fix gen in about 1,5-2s after survivor got downed). If you fix it like this, then survivor will not be stuck in down animation and will get adrenaline immediately where killer won't be able to abuse it. Another possibility survivor can do when he knows what's going to happen is to point as you go down - this will also skip down animation and you will get adrenaline immediately.
But I am 100% sure that before 7.1.0 (and I presume they didn't change it) if someone fixes gen immediately after killer downs someone AND killer is aware, then adrenaline is wasted perk slot as it buys just 1 more hit cooldown animation's worth of time.
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Fair enough, I'll take your word for it that you can't Adren to bypass the Dying fall anymore. (I swear you used to be able to at one point in time though, but I could be misremembering, I've played this game too long it all tends to blur together.)
Even assuming it 'hard deletes' Adren value in 4 people alive circumstances without pre-cleanses, I think its still a fair enough tickle nerf to Adrenaline. Overall I think Adrenaline is an unhealthy perk, but still a fair perk, and not OP by any stretch of the imagination. An edge case proxy nerf like this I don't think would be too much of an issue, and would hopefully draw off cries for its nerf with this mechanic as a soft-defense.
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Many people complain about the gens going to fast, so they feel like they have to tunnel someone out, or gen speeds need to be adjusted solo or coop
If you need to tunnel someone out, you need to tunnel someone out. Do what is necessary to win the game, the survivor will go next regardless of how badly you have hurt their feelings.
Now for a basekit NOED to not just be utter bull schenanigans, it would need to hurt genrushers, but not impact normal matches.
"Genrushing" is entirely an issue of the killer being incapable of properly managing pressure, which is a failing of the killer, not an admonition of the survivors.
So with that, what do we need... ...if 1 Survivor is downed/on hook/dead, the basekit version will not be active, and death will disable the totem altogether like Ruin. The totem would still be active, but the perk effects would not be.
The counterplay here, then, would be Plot Twist - something a SWF can guarantee that a team of solos cannot, which partially mitigates the intended benefits, no? A SWF is more likely to spread out their hooks to prevent anyone from dying whereas Solos are rarely that altruistic.
Now assuming someone says something along the lines of "I'm just a normal Survivor player, I shouldn't be punished for a Killer being bad at the game", then I agree, you can cleanse all 5 totems if you fear a basekit NOED. If Survivors 'HAVE' to pre-cleanse all the totems, that takes 70s on the totems, and lets underestimate 20s to search and walk over to reach all 5. That gives the weaker Killers who need extra time essentially a 6th gen.
So let's make this clear: If you're doing well in the game you need to entirely pause your last generator at 99 to cleanse five dulls so that the killer has a chance to bring back a game that they have already deservedly lost by mismanaging pressure. And that's to say nothing of... just off the top of my head lockdown killers guarding a free fifth perk by way of keeping one difficult-to-cleanse totem up the entire match instead of playing the game normally.
It also says nothing of how this would change survivor behaviour - if youre the only one on death hook the optimal play would now be to force a tunnel to guarantee the 3 out, a feat that is likely easier than a five-dull cleanse extending the game out even further.
Neither side should be punished for pursuing their objective - something that the discussions surrounding MFT would seem to show that the playerbase wholeheartedly agrees with.
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I feel like a mechanic which just rewards bad killers in anyway is not healthy. It discourages learning that people get from loosing a match, since this can allow a bad player to get extra hooks kills whatever which they fundamentally did not deserve.
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The first aspect of genrush means 'skill dif git gud' I agree with, this is meant to help weaker Killers (read players) without impacting more effective Killer's (read player's) matches.
The counterplay is Plot Twist - I mean if you want to say the counterplay to Corrupt is Plot Twist+No Mither instead of realizing how counter-productive that is, then sure, we can say it counters everything. The thing with Plot Twist is you have to pick yourself up eventually, and on the ground you provide no value to your team.
Lockdown Killers guarding the totem - I don't think you've read the post. The basekit NOED totem remains lit, but inactive if anyone is in the dying state, on hook, and fully snuffs itself out if someone dies. How do you propose a Killer snowballs 4 slugs/hooks in endgame from only a single exposed down that they weren't capable of doing previously? Also you can still soak a hook on someone to force the aura reveal portion for an easy search if you don't want to pre-cleanse. Now if you are saying hook the Survivor on the NOED totem, that's fair, I would recommend swapping totem spots in that case ala Pyramid Head Cages being camped get swapped spots. Maybe only swap the totem location for basekit NOED, and allow it to Pentimento styled replace an already broken totem. Another alternative would be basekit NOED must spawn in 2 totems, and either being cleansed (or 4 pre-cleansed) destroys the totem.
Neither side should be punished for pursuing their objective - At what point is the opposition pursuing their objective 'punishing' players for pursuing theirs? Anti-tunnel does this exact thing, but we consider it healthy for the game because it achieves the goal of promoting spreading the pressure instead of focus firing. This basekit NOED does a similar concept, where spreading pressure is rewarded more so than focus fire.
As long as matchmaking is based on kills and not hooks, and this gives free hooks and not kills (plural being the important factor here), then I would have to disagree. More hooks softens the blow of a loss for a weaker player, which makes them play more, which makes them learn more. If matchmaking made more sense with it being hook (action) based, or even a different better system, then I would most certainly agree. Sadly we live in a world of Kill/Escape based matchmaking, so my suggestion is centered around BHVR's logic in that regard. Similarly BHVR balances around 60% kill rates, so i try to keep my suggestions to stray not too far from that realm.
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The first aspect of genrush means 'skill dif git gud' I agree with, this is meant to help weaker Killers (read players) without impacting more effective Killer's (read player's) matches.
Weaker players should go against weaker players, that's the way in which they're helped - the fact that this doesn't always happen is evidence the MMR system is broken and needs fixing, rather than trying to rebalance the game around said broken system.
The counterplay is Plot Twist - I mean if you want to say the counterplay to Corrupt is Plot Twist+No Mither instead of realizing how counter-productive that is, then sure, we can say it counters everything. The thing with Plot Twist is you have to pick yourself up eventually, and on the ground you provide no value to your team.
Playing a 3* man endgame without NOED is easier than playing a 4 man endgame with NOED, and the second another survivor goes down the Plot Twist player can pick themselves back up at full health and with a speed boost, partially nulifying the benefit of downing that survivor at all. The value provided by putting yourself on the ground is denying the NOED.
Lockdown Killers guarding the totem - I don't think you've read the post. The basekit NOED totem remains lit, but inactive if anyone is in the dying state, on hook, and fully snuffs itself out if someone dies. How do you propose a Killer snowballs 4 slugs/hooks in endgame from only a single exposed down that they weren't capable of doing previously?
You yourself were suggesting this addition to the game as a means of giving the Killer an easier time in games that were difficult. If you now state that it's not capable of giving the killer a genuine chance I think that puts us back at square 1 to the necessity of adding a limited-scope basekit NOED, no? It's either useful or it isn't, you can't have it both ways.
But beyond this, you know what the strategy to snowball here would be? To abuse altruism. The second an unhook happens, the criteria of nobody being dying, hooked or dead is met and every survivor is exposed again - meaning the unhooker is now instadownable, monstrously dissuading the survivors from playing the endgame for a 4 man escape instead of just letting the killer have their free 1k.
Also you can still soak a hook on someone to force the aura reveal portion for an easy search if you don't want to pre-cleanse. Now if you are saying hook the Survivor on the NOED totem, that's fair, I would recommend swapping totem spots in that case ala Pyramid Head Cages being camped get swapped spots. Maybe only swap the totem location for basekit NOED, and allow it to Pentimento styled replace an already broken totem. Another alternative would be basekit NOED must spawn in 2 totems, and either being cleansed (or 4 pre-cleansed) destroys the totem.
I've been an advocate for 2-totem NOED for as long as I've been playing the game, but I don't think it would encourage survivors to play endgames altruistically, something I'll cover in more depth on your next point.
Neither side should be punished for pursuing their objective - At what point is the opposition pursuing their objective 'punishing' players for pursuing theirs? Anti-tunnel does this exact thing, but we consider it healthy for the game because it achieves the goal of promoting spreading the pressure instead of focus firing. This basekit NOED does a similar concept, where spreading pressure is rewarded more so than focus fire.
Tunnelling isn't particularly comparable because it is the optimal strategy in any given game. Removing someone from the match applies permanent, uncounterable pressure - anti-tunneling exists to mitigate this both in the name of balance and fun - furthering the engagement of the tunneled survivor past "you went down straight off the unhook, enjoy spending the next minute doing nothing".
Basekit NOED doesn't achieve this - in fact, it achieves the opposite. The optimal strategy under basekit NOED would be to simply leave- sacrifice whoever takes the chase if they cant run him for long enough to get themselves out and accepting that a 4 man out is simply too time-consuming to bother with anymore, especially given other endgame perks still function as normal, and are boosted by these changes - even just one instadown makes Blood Warden stronger, as a singular example.
Your alternative to picking a lamb for the slaughter is to bring a plot twist user, and neither of those are engaging imo (especially for the lamb or the plot twister) - if anything, they're monstrously unfun for the survivors and a hollow free kill for killers - the game giving you a 1k out of pity can't feel that great, I'd imagine.
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When I say weaker players, I typically mean in relation to their opposition. The problem with 'top-MMR' is how if you are at the bottom of that list, you only fight better opponents. So when I recommend this weaker basekit NOED, it is intended to help the outmatched weaker player. Essentially people matched against the 'correct MMR', but simply don't have the hours to match.
Even if we were to assume this absolute madlad response of Plot Twisting against basekit NOED, they need to be injured, they likely already used this in midgame making it known they have the perk going into endgame, and the team still needs to cleanse the totem while pressuring the gates. I think that's enough hoops to consider that fine counterplay.
Basekit NOED should be enough to soften a loss, but not enough to win games for free. That's the delicate balance, so I don't believe it to be contradictory to want it to do something, and also do little. It just needs to hit a Goldilocks styled 'just-right'.
As far as endgame altuism, that largely changes nothing. Survivors who screw up end up with a hook trade, Survivors who colossally screw up give a free 4k, and Survivors who play very well get a 4 escape. Each of those have degrees of success in between ranging X kills and Y escapes. The 'correct play' for Survivor is to cleanse the basekit NOED, and hook trade if you need the extra minute for searching/cleansing. Then as normal, Survivors coordinate the heals and unhooks until they get the amount of escapes that match their collective competence in relation to the Killer's. In the case of Bloodwarden, either the Killer telegraphs BW by opening the gates, or the Survivors misplay horribly by giving a hook AFTER they opened the gates themselves. That isn't really different Live from proposed.
With tunneling, it isn't always the optimal strategy, but people tend to mistake it to be. Just like pumping the gens, it isn't always the optimal strategy, but people tend to mistake it to be. That seems comparable to me. As far as a 4 man out, I feel like we must play in vastly different cultural regions. People near always try for the last minute rescues going for the hero moment, no matter how hopeless, at least on my server.
(Edit: To clarify circumstances of Tunneling not helping and pumping gens not helping I'll include some examples. 3 Survivors are pumping the final gen, and the Killer willfully ignores them to tunnel the Survivor because they 'need a kill'. [I've seen this often in my soloq matches.] The other circumstance is 'well let me just finish this gen before I go for the hook rescue', then the Survivor has 10s on hook by the time they arrive, and the Killer proxy-camps out an extra hook state. [I've seen this often in my Killer matches.] -end edit)
The max 1k that basekit NOED would grant you is meant to be a pity reward, not a full free swing back around in the Killer's favor. It is meant to soften a loss, not entirely remove a deserved one. The Survivor team can then choose do they like Mission Complete or MISSION ACCOMPLISHED, and can play accordingly.
Post edited by mizark3 on0 -
So one guy of the survivor team who basically didn't do anything wrong, but in the end was just guy getting hit by Noed (or unhooked against, which as a base kit mechanic would just not happen, because why would he risk going down) has to die and somewhat loose so the killer who lost the game doesn't feel so bad about getting trashed? Come on man that cannot be the goal here... So now this guy feels bad because he didn't do anything wrong in particular but still died to this... That does not really improve the overall happiness of people...
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Also this is a game for adults, this is not some game for little children who need pity awards for not quitting right away... If you cannot deal with loosing in a video game as a grown up then so be it, but I don't think it is a good reason to ruin another players win just to feel better about yourself, which honestly you shouldn't even as killer in that example, because you didn't earn the victory, you just got lucky...
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Ok thats fair I get the point, some kind of comeback mechanic a bit like a devour hope in a way based on how well you did could be cool. The only issue with that logic is giving free hooks can lead to kills (say your free hook happens to be to a guy on death hook). This would then lead to increases in MMR and free kills which said player did not deserve.
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Since the guy can still be rescued, and the guy could have pre-cleansed, yeah, seems fine to me. Half the time the final chase person is injured anyways, so this doesn't get them downed significantly faster to have the injured person be exposed, especially if we decide the Haste is too much for basekit NOED, a concession I am willing to make. This could be a fair point though if you were to make the argument people would instead, or increase the rate at which they stay injured going into endgame instead, backfiring on the intended results. That would be a horrible failing of the entire goal of the change.
While I don't disagree with this notion, a huge chunk of the playerbase are under the M-17/PEGI-18 suggestions provided. I know I played the Halo trilogy, Mortal Kombat, and OG Doom when I was a kid, and certainly was under 18 when that happened. That is a fair sub-argument to determine whether we balance around the presence of 'illegal' kids or not.
Even then, if you were to scan the forums for Killer player complaints, the common factor is 'I lose because my games go too fast', so this is an attempt to help people whose games actually are 'going too fast' without impacting the norm. The logic of ruin another person's day can be also compared to bringing a meta Killer loadout on Blight/Nurse, or a giga-toolbox in a SWF, yet we aren't deleting those from the game. I would tune those down as well, but for now, I think comeback mechanics (that don't affect normal matches) are a good attempt.
I can understand the counterargument (Free hooks can be free kills), but in most circumstances I'd say it was a 'healthy' kill. If the person intentionally 6-8 hooked, then got a basekit NOED kill, they had a free 7-9th hook. They could have placed their hooks more efficiently like 3/3/0-2/0 and gotten 2 kills and likely ended the game much sooner. Giving that person a free kill, I don't find offensive. On the other hand, the person who only has 2 hooks on 1 person, given their 'free hook' on that same person, would be an unenjoyable 'free kill', especially if the team saw the 4th Surv getting tunneled, and they pumped the gens in response, expecting them to die and disable the totem. That would be a fair thing to worry about.
So with those 2 above cases, I think at that point we would want to consider the frequency of the 6-8 hook free kill vs the 2 hook free kill, and if the 1 kill is enough of an MMR adjustment to matter in the long run.
From my matches (as Killer), I end up in the 6-8 hook scenario running into endgame more often. From my soloq matches, I end up in a tunneled kill + 2 spread/tunneled hooks circumstance more often heading into endgame, so the basekit NOED wouldn't even spawn. But, this would need more info with other people to determine the accuracy.
As far as the MMR, the free kill would slow the MMR loss, but not prevent it. (Assuming Kills positive) +5-5-5-5 (1K3E) is still net -10, so the Killer still lost the match MMR wise, and goes down in MMR. Compared to -5-5-5-5 (4E) being net -20, so if it were truly a fully free kill, it would half the rate of MMR loss. Since both still cause a loss in MMR, I don't quite think this would cause an 'increase' in MMR. No to be fair, if they camped the skilled person (in relation to the Killer), it could shift the numbers to something like +20-5-5-5, (1K3E) which is net +5, so the free facecamp gave the Killer 1 kill, and an MMR win. My counter to that specific circumstance is that assuming that player would be that much more skilled than the Killer, they would know the mechanics of basekit NOED to be able to utilize the remaining resources (pallets and windows) to extend chase long enough to allow for the team to cleanse it. As such, the odds of the Killer catching them significantly drop, so that only say ~20% of the time does the Killer catch them. With those odds, the effective value of the MMR win drops to +4-5-5-5 (adjusted 20% 1K3E) at net -11, so an MMR loss. In this particular example, it remains an MMR loss as long as it the skill differential is enough to cause the Killer to catch them any amount less than 75% of the time.
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Based on WHAT? Stats from nearly a year ago? Or the stat websites that grasp at Straws?
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Gandor has expressed a desire for kill rates being balanced around 50%, and BHVR's stated intention is to hover around 60%. I think it is a fair assertion that kill rates are likely currently above 50%, but below 60%.
For one, when BHVR revealed perk stats, they didn't reveal kill stats. That leads me to believe the kill stats are NOT currently hovering around 60%, or any desired range.
Two, Survivor is getting QoL mechanics that will negatively impact kill rates. That leads me to believe the kill stats are above 50%, because otherwise BHVR would be scrambling to pump the numbers.
Three, while i also devalue sweatlords self-reporting (Nightlight), it can be fair to say their numbers are often enough, somewhat in the ballpark, with exceptions existing. (see the recent thread comparing BHVR perk stats and Nightlight's stats, with Self-Care being the most notable exception that I can recall) As a result, Nightlight's aggregate ballpark of above 50 and less than 60 could support points 1 and 2.
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The implication that in one year the average kill rate statistic can drop over 10% especially given that, on the whole, Killers became more potent in 2023 (Chess Merchant, the Sadako Rework, nerfs to Dead Hard, removal of Lightburning, etc etc), is at best unrealistic.
Realistically, the Kill Rate is probably exactly where it was a year ago - hovering the 60% figure. If your experiences are different, I'd be interested to know which killers you play.
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Apoligies if this double posts, sometimes clicking Post Comment sends my posts to a void? Regardless:
The implication that the kill rate has dropped more than 10% in a year where, on the whole, killers became more potent (Chess Merchant, Sadako's Rework, removal of Lightburning, nerfs to Dead Hard, etc etc) is at best unrealistic.
If I had to guess, I'd say the kill rate is still hovering around the 60% figure that it was in Sep. 2022.
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exactly. Thanks. You saved me a few letters
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Those who oppose this idea mistakenly believe that they are required to destroy all five totems.
Even if you destroy the totem after the existence of NOED is discovered, it will not be too late. After all, are you just helpless sheep when faced with a killer who actually has NOED? It's different.
It would be outrageous for four people to be alive and all to be overrun by NOED, but that rarely happens. At least if the survivors are dominant enough for the gate to conduct electricity.
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I feel like in that respect should we not just introduce less complex and potentially controversial ways of rewarding killers for hooking multiple survivors? You wrote a lot and I think I get the basic idea, but whilst your intent is good and if this was to in theory happen and MMR did align this way then yes it would be better. But as I read this I just realised it can be boiled down to a much simpler: "why dont we just rewarding hooking multiple survivors more and change mmr to better reflect this?".
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