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How To Fix Made For This
(In my opinion, of course!)
So, we'll start with getting the pure balance changes out of the way, and then we'll move on to a few other elements I think will push MFT into a much healthier niche than it currently occupies:
- Remove the Endurance. I think it's relatively uncontroversial to say that, even though it comes into play less frequently, Made For This having the Endurance effect as a secondary element of its design makes things overtuned. It's not necessary for an already strong perk to have this as a secondary effect, so just straight up remove it. Put it on another perk, maybe; I don't think it's strong enough to be a perk all on its own, but pairing it with a weaker primary effect would work.
- Prevent stacking. Whether this is a survivor-role-wide change to prevent Haste stacking at all, or just a stipulation for Made For This specifically, it should be obvious that pairing MFT with other sources of sustained Haste (most notably Hope, but not exclusively) makes things spiral out of control. If it's the former, MFT should increase your running speed while injured (and not Exhausted) up to 3%, depending on whether you currently have a Haste effect. If what you have is lower than 3% (like Dark Theory), it's raised up to 3%. If it's higher, that higher number applies and MFT doesn't.
Those changes would bring this perk into line, at least in terms of numbers and theory, but I think an additional change should be made to help bring it into line in terms of actual game experience.
- Give survivors under the effect of MFT a unique running animation. Largely inspired by the (admittedly very brief) visual tell for Dramaturgy, I think that survivors who have MFT equipped (and are affected by it, so this would disable while Exhausted and/or healthy, for instance) should have a visual tell so the killer knows to play around it. Holding their arms differently, or something, I'm not a visual designer.
With that, I think the perk would be healthy. A lot of people would drop it anyway because any nerf is seen as killing a perk (looking at you, Iron Will and Circle of Healing), but even disregarding that it'd make the perk actually healthier.
Comments
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MFT: The perk is so powerful that I cannot tell whether the survivor is using it so you need unique running animation.
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survivors who have MFT equipped (and are affected by it, so this would disable while Exhausted and/or healthy, for instance) should have a visual tell so the killer knows to play around it
But the problem is, the perk has no inherent counterplay for the killer.
The only counterplay (I use that word very loosely here) the perk has is equipping add-ons or perks that make survivors Exhausted. But since you cannot alter your build mid-match, there's nothing a killer can actually do about it once they realise it's in play. You could argue that killers should just equip such builds for all games they play, but it's not a viable option considering:
- Not all killers even have Exhaustion add-ons.
- Not all killers can afford to waste perk slots on Exhaustion-inflicting perks.
- Plus, most perks that do this are very bad at it. E.g. Blood Echo has an overly long cooldown, Genetic Limits has a niche activation requirement, Septic Touch is... just terrible in every way, etc.
The only consistent counterplay to MFT being "have foresight of the perks that the survivors will run so you can preemptively equip Exhaustion builds" doesn't sit right with me.
You could argue that giving MFT a visual tell allows the killer to make more informed decisions about which chases to commit to and which to drop. But that also doesn't work in situations where all of the survivors have MFT (in addition to other chase perks like Resilience and WoO). Okay, so the perk has a visual tell, and I now know that the whole team is running MFT. But what exactly am I supposed to do with that information?
Prevent stacking
I see this suggestion a lot, but I don't think it will solve the problem. Haste stacking only exacerbates the problem with MFT, but I honestly believe the 3% on its own is still an issue. Yeah, it sounds like a very small number when you think of it compared to the absolute speed of 100%. But that's not what's relevant in a chase. The length of time it takes for killers to catch survivors is governed by differential speed between the two. Running the numbers (as has been done in this Reddit post, as well as many times here on the forums) reveals that even a small 3% speed boost for the survivor increases the length of time required to catch a survivor by:
- 25% for 4.6 m s^-1 killers.
- 42% for 4.4 m s^-1 killers.
And that's in a vacuum. Not even considering the extra loops around windows, pallets, debris etc. that MFT allows you to get. Slap on Resilience to vault faster, and WoO to plan your pathing better -- and chases are going to last a WHOLE lot longer.
This game has been balanced around survivors running at 100% movement speed. All of the tiles are designed with that speed in mind. Giving survivors a movement speed boost that can last the entire game causes a number of these loops to just become unmanagable for M1 killers. Sure, they'll eventually be able to catch up due to window blockers and Bloodlust. But by the time it happens, all of the generators have popped and the game is as good as over.
The 3% is also impactful in the way that it messes with killer's muscle memory. We've spent 7 years learning the distances our lunges, killer powers, etc. can hit at. And MFT throws that all off just by a narrow margin. It's frustrating.
Another point I see brought up a lot to defend the 3% of MFT, is other Haste perks like Dark Theory or Blood Pact. At first, it seems only logical that if MFT is overtuned these perks must be too. But there's a big difference between them. Dark Theory and Blood Pact grant Haste under strict conditions:
- Dark Theory has to be set up, which wastes survivors' time. Moreover, The Haste effect only applies in a relatively small radius, and the killer can disable it -- forcing survivors to sink more time into searching for and blessing totems if they want the Haste effect again.
- Blood Pact has a niche activation requirement. Someone needs to get injured, lose the killer, find their partner, heal and then stay within 16 metres of each other. That means to get value out of the perk, two survivors have to stay grouped up and get chased together -- which is terribly inefficient.
Compare that to MFT where the only activation requirements are:
- Running,
- and being injured.
Both of which are normal occurences in a chase. There's no requirement to go out of your way to get the perk. It's just there, passively, for the whole game.
In my opinion, MFT is a disaster of a perk that should've never been released. The fact it's now taken over 5 months to rectify is unacceptable really. Playing an M1 killer in the current "4 chase perks" meta is like trying to ride a bicycle with square wheels.
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If the only counter being to completely shut the perk off with Exhaustion were even close to true, you may have a point here, but you'll forgive me for not being convinced on that front.
It is entirely true that the numbers you've been given here for how much longer it takes the killer to catch up are numbers in a vacuum, but you seem to be under the impression the elements that weren't taken into account - loops, where on the map you are, killer powers, other perks in play - would make the numbers worse, and I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. The only way that would be the case, from what I can see, is if a killer is just following the survivor in a completely straightforward manner with no input beyond holding the W key and turning the mouse where necessary.
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If the only counter being to completely shut the perk off with Exhaustion were even close to true
Please expain the counterplay to me then.
you seem to be under the impression the elements that weren't taken into account - loops, where on the map you are, killer powers, other perks in play - would make the numbers worse, and I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion.
Because it's the only logical conclusion:
- Survivors are smaller and can hug loops tighter than the killer, which is the very reason that looping is even possible. Adding a Haste effect on top of this, makes loops even safer. The only way it wouldn't help is if the survivor is completely atrocious.
- MFT is not only helpful at loops, it also helps you to reach them and chain them into one another.
The only way that would be the case, from what I can see, is if a killer is just following the survivor in a completely straightforward manner
Not all killers have a chase power, and some of them that do, have a bad one.The Shape, Ghostface, Onryō, Pig etc. Which means that at some loops, all you can do is follow in a straight line and turn as needed. Garden of Joy main building for instance. The window is incredibly safe, and generally unmindgameable due to how long the wall is. There's also a god pallet right next to it that survivors have to fall back on if they do happen to mess up.
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You'd counter MFT in the same way you'd counter any skilled looper. You mindgame, you improve your pathing where possible, you drop chase and ambush later to give them less of a head start, you use your power (not just in a direct chase way; you cite Ghostface, who is capable of shutting down MFT completely with good play), you chase into deadzones where applicable.
This is generally the context that is missing when people try and talk about MFT in hard numbers. The reality of a trial with skilled players is tossed out the window and only individual chases with all the nuances sanded off are considered.
I think citing Garden of Joy is putting your thumb on the scale a bit. It's not as though MFT is needed to make that a nightmare for a lot of killers.
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But that isn't a specific counter to the perk. "Just be good at chasing" is not a counter.
- "You mindgame": Not all loops are mindgame-able.
- "improve your pathing where possible": And if you're already pathing as efficiently as possible, how does this counter the additional speed MFT provides?
- "you drop chase and ambush later": This is easy to say but doesn't always work out in your favour in a match. If you drop chase, you now have to go and find another survivor and initate a fresh chase with them, only to potentially discover that they have MFT and Resilience too, and are going to waste just as much time as your previous chase. You can't drop chases indefinitely. If everyone is efficient loopers and running perks to extends chases, you're left with no choice but to chase and down one of them.
- "you use your power": Again, not all killers have a power for this. In theory, killers like Shape and Ghostface can bypass MFT. But in actual matches, you're not going to have a chance to proc your power in every single chase you initiate. Sometimes you are forced to chase as an M1 killer. Even if you do bypass MFT by making survivors Exposed, they will still come of the hook injured -- at which point your power is not going to help you much. Obviously Ghostface does have stealth capability, and can ambush injured survivors. But Shape post-Tier 1 doesn't really have that capacity (at least not basekit).
citing Garden of Joy is putting your thumb on the scale a bit. It's not as though MFT is needed to make that a nightmare for a lot of killers.
How so? It's not as if Garden of Joy is the only instance of tough loops made even worse by MFT (and adjacent perks). Badham Preschool main building, Mother's Dwelling main building, various buildings on Haddonfield, the log loop on Backwater Swamp, etc.
Certain loops being problematic even without MFT is not a good defense of the perk either way.
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I'm not sure why it wouldn't be considered a counter, considering it dramatically cuts down the effectiveness of the perk and renders it more than manageable. That sounds like a counter to me!
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In the first place, why do you think "dramatically cuts down the effectiveness of the perk" so much in response to the topic owner's proposal? Could you please provide your rationale?
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the counter-play to any strong perk is not another perk. it is letting user use the perk and downing the survivor despite the perk being active.
i do not see them removing haste stacking because it invalids using perk synergy together. Hope is end game perk design increase escape rates in the end game. it is very similar adrenaline in the sense that if you chase survivors with hope, survivor can waste so much time that they can heal in end game then bodyblock for person who has Hope. A perk that does that exact effect is Adrenaline and it is arguably more annoying to play against then Hope because that exact situation happens way quicker.
I have theory to why perk has endurance. for some reason, the dev wanted the perk to have an endurance trigger condition to synergize 3% haste on-hit SB effect. the idea is that when you hit a healthy survivor, MFT makes take longer to catch-up like a reverse rapid brutality perk. either way, I don't really encounter this effect very often in my killer games. the killer that do complain about the perk exclusively talk about haste effect like @OnryosTapeRentals and nothing else. removing secondary effect will not change complaints of said perk. killer dislike this perk for same reason they dislike original DH and Decisive strike. It is strong anti-tunnel perk that can make you lose the match if you over-chase that scales on survivor's skill-level in chase. I do not think there is any solution to the problem. survivors want a competitive perk that empowers their skill-level in chases so they can 1vs1 the killer but killer dislike the perk because of extend chases for what @OnryosTapeRentals is describing. survivors direct interest is to survive. killer's interest is obviously to kill.
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Stop trying to hide the real issue with MFT please, no one cares about Endurance and stacking.
The real issue is the PERMANENT 3% speed boost, a perk without limits is a problem, you can be injuried in at the beginning of the game and have perma speed boost for the entire match and that's beyond stupid. IF this perk deactivate after 10 seconds no one will complain but, guess why, no one will use it anymore.People are using it not for the endurance effect or the stacking, but for the perma boost that works so well with other similar perks ( and here's the stacking issue )
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It's a worse overcome then, pointless, if I was the devs I'd delete endurance and nerf speed boost to 2% like dark theory, but you all will still cry about it even at 1 or 0.5% speed so it doesn't really matter, it's unfixable until it's gutted, and then you will find some other perks to blame
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thansk for proving my point. Everyone know the issue is the perma 3% speed boost, survivors and killers
No one care about endurance because you're not using that perk for the endurance and, if the perk is toned down you won't use it anymore. So stop hiding the provblem behind "remove endurance" "remove the stacking" and so on, the problem of MTF is the perma speed boost, Period
It can be fixed ? Not really but that's BHVR fault, this perk shouldn't have come to live server, who design this perk and thought it was fine whould be fired, this perk mean the design team has no idea about the game itself ( well i've another idea, this perk is so broken because they needed to sell the chapter ) anyway...the only solution is to nerf this perk but the onky valid nerf is, as said, remove the permanent effect
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This is going to come as a shock to you, so I'd suggest bracing yourself, but sometimes... people actually just have different opinions to you. They're not trying to "hide" something, they don't secretly agree with you but hold the opposite position for some nefarious purpose, they just straight up don't agree with you.
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ok so you truly believe that the endurace part of MFT is the issue with the perk and not the permanent 3% speed boost ?
Oki
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You have literally no reason to believe otherwise considering I've said as much in multiple threads including this one.
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I think if we’re at the point we’re considering adding a unique running animation to a Haste effect just to counterbalance it, something is wrong with that effect. While it would make its use more obvious to killers, it doesn’t change how powerful MFT actually is.
Fwiw, I agree that the Endurance should be removed - it’s overkill, and I’d even go as far as saying Haste stacking should be completely removed for both sides, not just survivors. But MFT’s run speed can’t be fixed just by giving it an obvious tell. While it has counterplay in some situations, there are also a lot of situations where it really doesn’t, or simply provides far too much value even if the killer gets the down eventually. The problem with MFT is that the perk is simply way too easy to activate. Being injured and not exhausted is not nearly restrictive enough for how powerful its effect is. It either needs a more restrictive limit on its use, or it needs to have a time limit, or something. It also should not synergize with Dead Hard as well as it does right now, that basically defeats the point of not being able to use it while exhausted.
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It's not to counterbalance it, it's to give it a tell. A lot of perks would be difficult to track the effect of with no indication, and a lot of those perks give a little popup in the corner of the screen. I think that would work for MFT, though it'd be a bit annoying to remember who has it, but a different running animation would be both cooler and make things a little smoother to track, so I'd prefer to see that.
I have no reason to believe that the 3% Haste, on its own, is actually too strong. It seems, on paper and in practice (from what I've seen), to be balanced enough to not be a problem.
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If gaining 3% haste for losing half a chase is overpowered...
Then play with your food would be the most broken perk this game has ever seen. 3% stacking up to 9%? That's gotta be an instant win button if you believe even a tenth of some of these ridiculous MfT posts.
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Not really wading in on your guys debate, but: -
- PWYF requires messing about dropping chase repeatedly against a specific survivor.
- Is lost when you injure a survivor by any means.
- Haste in general is more valuable on survivors than the killer.
Killer strength: Faster than survivors.
Survivor strength: There are 4 of you.
MFT directly reduces a core strength of the killer... and can be used by 4 players. The comparison of PWYF to MFT is not really a fair comparison, as PWYF doesn't directly affect the core strength of survivors.
Tombstone Piece directly affects the core strength of survivors... so that is a more accurate thing to compare MFT to.
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And yet, if MfT is truly a problem, then a 3% speed boost directly and completely counters it.
In fact, bloodlust is free and more than counters the 3% bonus. So do a large number of killer powers.
I'm just convinced at this point that there are an insane number of killers who have no idea how to use the killer base kit at all and the only 'skill' is bitching for nerfs on the forums.
The sad part is the bitching works to nerf a ton of stuff, and the sadder part is that it never solves the skill issue so the goal post moves every time to the next 'hUgE IsSuE' and the cycle continues.
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Do you know how long it takes for bloodlust to take effect? You are promised to be detained for a long time because it will be released by hitting the survivor or doing certain actions.
I can't bear to see the comments of killer unplayed players.
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this is mostly unrelated, but if all haste stacking was removed would pwyf need to be recoded? right now I think it functions off +5% per token, not +10% for 2 and 15% for 3 if you know what I mean.
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Bloodlust: 5%, takes around 16s per stack, goes away on hit, goes away on kicking pallets, goes away on using power.
MFT: 3% permanently no wind up no deactivation just be injured and chase 20% longer
Im just convinced at this point there are an insane number of survivor players who have no idea how the game functions on a fundamental level and that just because bloodlust is 5% haste doesnt automatically make mft balanced in any way.
There are only 4 or 5 killer powers that counter mft. I'd say nurse, blight, spirit, clown and skull merchant. Nurse blinks dont care how fast you're moving, but mft does double your distance gain. A good blight can use his power anywhere and get a hit. Spirit as well. Clown hinders and hastes making mft relatively irrelevant. SM has built in haste/hinder. Literally anyone else in the roster has nothing. Every killer but the top 3 has areas where their power wont get value from using it, so you dont. Therefore in those scenarios they function as an M1 killer and deal with mft as such.
it baffles me the logical leaps you'll make to call mft balanced.
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Most killer powers have something to deal with MFT, as long as you look at the entire game and not the most boiled-down, nuanceless single chase example you can think of.
For example: Wraith is a stealth killer, on top of having his post-uncloak lunge. These are tools to deal with strong loopers who stay injured, and their respective perks- including MFT.
Ghostface is a stealth killer who has an instadown. A good Ghostface doesn't have to care about MFT; if they stay injured, they get ambushed. If they heal, they get Marked.
Almost all the 110 killers have some kind of range, which means the distance gain on MFT is dramatically less useful. The ones who don't, Hag and Spirit, care about MFT even less.
Killers like Nemesis, Xenomorph, and to a lesser extent Pyramid Head shut down map resources in such a way that reaching them slightly faster doesn't really help in most cases.
So on, and so forth. This list isn't exhaustive, they're just examples.
This on top of the fact that even regular M1 chasing is 100% completely viable with the right decisionmaking and skill expression, so even the very few killers who don't have a direct tool to use have options.
It's a little irritating to see people keep taking extremely specific in-a-vacuum scenarios and act like they represent the entire game. More things happen than already being partway through a single chase.
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Bloodlust 1 takes 15 seconds, and gives 5% move speed.
For reference, the difference that MfT makes in 15 seconds is 1.8m. That's well within lunge range compared to 'base kit', and then you completely overpower MfT speed boost with bloodlust.
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Im just convinced at this point there are an insane number of survivor players who have no idea how the game functions on a fundamental level and that just because bloodlust is 5% haste doesnt automatically make mft balanced in any way.
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Well, if you're good enough MFT is not a problem, really.
My killrate from before mft didnt change at all, almost every game is 4k.
Crying over 3% is actually stupid XD
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You'll notice none of my suggested fixes actually pertain to the 3% Haste, though, so I'm not sure why this is a relevant comment. Unless I'm missing something, of course?
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Yeah I see what you mean, idk which way it’s coded but maybe
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