Trickster update is masterful
Best killer changes I've seen in a long time. he might actually be an A tier killer now. With a 33% faster base throw rate, a pseudo always avaliable main event, BEING 115%, and getting some addon updates hes looking good. What do the trickster mains think?
edit: some comments have definitely outlined a few issues I didnt notice before. If these major buffs are to go to live, then they should probably make missing knives much more punishing. Maybe low his speed while throwing or something now that he downs faster+115% and/or lower his clip since main event is so common.
Comments
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It's masterful if your sole measurement is "did this killer get stronger?" From the survivor perspective he's going to be absolutely miserable to face, and he was already frustrating to deal with before.
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I like the changes but to me the most interesting changes are the removal of recoil and the change to main event.
I admit I'm worried about the 4.6 ms change but I'll see how it plays out. I think it's interesting we have a 4.6ms range killer now.
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It’s a pretty bad change imo. It excemplifies his current design flaws and leaves survivors with next to no counterplay
At a low wall loop? Either just take the knives or try to dodge and lose distance for an M1 or more knives
At high wall loop? Take 3-4 knives per rotation thanks to throw speed buff until you get injured or predrop if the pallet is safe and try to make distance
It’s a bad set of changes imo that will need a considerable look over if they even want to change him at all
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The 4.6m/s change doesn't change his speed while throwing knives. It simply helps him out at tiles where his power is difficult to use, because unlike other killers he has to hit his power several times to do anything.
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They'll definitely be fun to play as, which I'm kinda looking forward to. On the other hand they look absolutely miserable to play against. A lot of the changes are pretty good but the 4.6 will likely force a lot more lose lose situations on survivors at certain tiles. Have to wait and see though.
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He's going to be extremely fun to play as and absolutely ######### to play against.
I'm really not sure what his counterplay is because you can't realistically dodge knives in a loop consistently. Factor in no recoil (blessed console buff) and faster MS? I don't think these changes are good.
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I know - I am worried about it though because I feel a lot of people are going to underestimate the movement speed change. It will allow him to reposition better for throws though which I worry about the situation of "back rev'ing" syndrome.
Other changes are insanely good though and I admit I wasn't expecting all of these things to happen to Trickster at once. To be honest I didn't even consider Trickster would be the next killer to get a huge sweep of changes. Was more expecting Myers. I know Twins isn't getting touched for a while but I know Twins is planned.
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Trickster suffers slowdown from his power far more than other killers, so I don't see the 4.6m/s really being a huge issue.
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Not only that but they are changing maps for the worse on survivor side. Making certain tiles more unsafe, adding clutters in dead zones.
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Yeah and his power is also really easy to hit since he has barely any windup, he is just a less skillfull huntress...
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Holy hell, this was unexpected. All I ever really wanted was the movement speed change, but I will happily take everything else. Photocard is potentially going to be ridiculous.
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Trickster was already one of my least favorite killers to go against before this rework. This change will boost him up that even more. He is such horrible design.
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You can use even less skill to hold w around tall walls and counter both.
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I really don’t know how to feel about the Trickster changes, gonna have to wait and see on the PTB for this one.
One thing is for sure and it’s that he’s going to be a lot stronger now, which is fine since he was pretty bad before. But I’m concerned whether it leaves enough counterplay for survivors. Main Event will be a lot more common now too even if it doesn’t last as long (though you can get it back up to 10 seconds with his new addons).
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So what? Just shows he is bad design, that's my whole point, he is a terrible killer. Huntress can still get hits in jungle gyms and such despite them having high walls so what exactly is your point?
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The same non-existent point you are trying to make.
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I mean Trickster did need a buff since he's a fairly weak killer and also a very unpopular killer to play. Which is weird since his skins seem to sell well but then people just don't actually play him, he's easily in the bottom 5 killers I see as survivor.
He's also really unfun to play against for most survivors. Even though he's inconsistant and overall not that good, when he -is- in a good chase location, there's not much survivors can actually do against him. It basically comes down to, are you near a high-wall loop/building? Yes - He's bad, No - You're going down really fast.
My main concern with these changes though, besides the fact I'll end up going against more Tricksters which isn't great, is that it's a LOT of big buffs coming at the same time. The movement speed buff is already huge and add to that the much more fequent Main Event AND no recoil or windup time for his knives? It's a lot.
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That statement alone doesn't make sense but whatever dude.
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Even with this much upper adjustment, he will not become a Tier 1 killer as he still requires high play skill and aim. Still, I'm very happy that the design is such that I want to use it from time to time and want to improve my playing skills and master it.
Well, there are as many killers as there are stars that have not been adjusted or have been revised downward through the PTB, so I don't know yet.
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His core issue of not being fun to go against at all just does not get adressed... Like the issue is dodging knives basically means nothing because there is so many of them, and instead of realising that they cannot fix this core concept for him they just go down the same path of giving him more knives, but he also needs more to get a health state, that does not adress the issue in the slightest, how can they not realise that. Ok great now he needs more knives for a health state, but the gameplay stays the same and is still not any better, I'm just afraid that killers who are actually more fun to go against, like Huntress, become less played because Trickster might be stronger for the casual player and does not require much skill, you don't even need to counter the recoil now. It is kind of sad.
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awful changes, he should stay at 4.4 ms
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Except main event changes, I think he's okay.
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It feels like they missed the mark. Having to hit 8 times instead of 6 is a big deal. They made him nastier but how much stronger he'll get is hard to say. They could have removed the recoil, maybe have a look at some of his addons and be done with it. Instead, they had to make a lot of changes and compensate to bring him into an even more disgusting spot.
Also, I know I must sound like a broken record but Twins rework?! 1 1/2 years have passed and they were supposed to be the next killer after Legion and Ghostface to get a rework. But now we've had Knight (they changed him so much I'll consider it a rework from his original state), Skull Merchant - twice, Sadako and now quite a few changes to Trickster. Is the Twins rework still coming, or was it cancelled? I'm a bit confused.
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Could console players do well with him now? I have prayed for this.
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Like I said in another thread, just make him have unlimited knives. At this point, why not? Or make one knife just down survivors.
He's easy to kite and dodge, but he's the most annoying killer to go against. I absolutely hate him.
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I kind of get the 115% change since he has esencially no way of getting long range shots unlike Huntress and Deathslinger, but WHY on earth would they buff just about anything else? He literally has a close range machine gun that will barely slows him down. Who thought this was a good idea?
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i think he will be easier to play against because at surface level, he is going hit you with 4-5 knives and then knifes decay in 10 seconds so your going heal in-chase vs his ability after turning any long-wall corner. 6->8 knives is big deal. after that, he is nothing more than m1 killer. people that have played trickster in the past know what 10 second decay felt like on killer side and 8 knives is worse then before he had malicious murder(green usb stick) add-on that reduced it to 7.
Post edited by Devil_hit11 on0 -
He pretty much will have unlimited knives because they didn't change the irl compilation addon. Everytime u waste your main event u get all your knives back. Giving how easy it will be to trigger main event you're never have to reload via locker.
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Those changes are pretty wild if they give him all of that and not just like 2.
trickster's biggest problem was map design and mft put him in a coffin, but that's getting nerfed.
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The issue I have with the changes is that they don't really address any of his counterplay issues at all. The question was never whether or not dodging knives felt consequential. I guess maybe that might be the case if you were playing against an MMR 10 Trickster who couldn't aim. His counterplay issue has always been: low wall tile or open space = death, and high wall tile = predrop to deny throwing angles. His counterplay has always been very binary and non-interactive. If the killer is any good, you go down almost instantly if it's a map asset he can hit over. If you can actually get to a jungle gym or rock filler, just predrop it and safe vault it until he breaks it or bloodlusts it.
These buffs don't really change any of that. The exact same problems will be present. And really, the problems will be exacerbated with more frequent Main Events and faster throwing speed along with a lack of recoil. If the killer player is any good at the game, there is no counterplay to this in an open space. You are not dodging enough knives before he empties his clip. This rework seems to be tuned around really bad Trickster players. The good ones are going to be insufferable. The counterplay to a power can't be "hope you load into a favorable map".
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4 blades per sec, 8 blades to injure. Which means 2sec.
If within 8m radius around a survivor dont have a meaningful obstacle to cover, its a guarantee hit/down. And we all know how much death zone in new maps recently
Leaving a loop will never be an option for survivors either. Usually between gym/loop titles are a blank one, which is 8m distance. You know what I mean.
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your not meant to loop killer for 5 gens. you have unrealistic expectation of counter-play to never go down to trickster. high-wall loops are effective strategy to delay downs from trickster. you only need hold-w against trickster enough to deny throwing angles. as long you do not get hit by 8 knives, the knives will decay. using knives as a health-resource for distance is how your suppose loop trickster.
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I'll have to play him over slinger at this point if I want an actually decent ranged killer.
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Hope you load into a favorable map has been this game for so long. I enter garden, lerys, haddonfield. There's more once you factor in ranged killers(110).
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trickster was always miserable to face, and always will be as long as his power works the way it does. this is probably the best they could have done without fully reworking him. He down faster but it takes more knives so more reloading, too. I could definitely see new main event being a problem though.
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Only if you ignore the part where he gets main event super fast and does not use knives during that buddy... You might wanna rethink that.
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Correction: you're not meant to loop an equally skilled killer for 5 gens
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I never really understood why he had 4.4ms, it's not like he can damage with 1 hit like huntress. Good decisions by devs, I didn't like that speed buildup reseting because some maps just force you to throw 1-2 daggers.
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is this sentence suppose to indirectly say that trickster takes no skill? The skill in looping(delaying) trickster is what I outlined. high-walls are your friend towards his slow throwing movement speed. use knives hits as a life resource to make distance. The further away you are from him, the more likely you are to find pieces of debris that block his line of sight. avoid low-wall loops. you can still use low-wall loops but only if you have made the trickster spend a lot of knives prior to going to a low loop with the objective that you empty his knives reserves. I am not saying you have to count his knives as he throws them in exact ratio but rough estimation is all you need.
all this will be easier for survivor with 8 knives and 10 second decay. these are same reasons to why he does not stack up against other ranged options. that is why I do not understand the logic behind weakening throwing mode when the killer already has not good 1vs1.
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Casual trickster main here and am very very happy lol. I understand the outcry people feel about him but in scenarios where you are rarely going to see trickster anyway - I think his buffs are fine.
I am happy to just be able to use main event more often now. I rarely get value with it so it's a nice change. And just overall being a regular speed killer is nice. It was so demoralizing when people would just hold to the next loop and you were punished trying to throw knives and track at the same time.
Not to say playing him should be easy, it's just nice to have regular movement speed and being able to use his power in chase more.
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No, it's meant to say that the update will make an already extremely uninteractive killer to go against even easier to play, further lowering his skill floor (already not that high anyway). I didn't say it takes *no* skill, but it doesn't take *much* skill anyway
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your entitled to your own opinion but as far killer player go. he is very unpopular killer and almost nobody has ever considered trickster to be a strong killer. Otz for example rates trickster as C-tier killer which is trending to be among weakest killer in the game. For the most part, I tend to agree. long chases from easy to use counter-play.
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It's fine for a killer not to be strong, especially if they're extremely dull and too rewarding for the amount of effort taken.
Hasn't bhvr learned anything from Freddy?
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according generic statistics at all mmr. he had 2nd worst kill-rate only 1% behind nurse. He was 53% kill-rate and Nurse was 52%. So when you say he is easy to play. 95% of player-base severely under-performs with him. When a top 5% MMR player plays him, he gets nominal kill-rate with other ranged killers. only one-trick trickster player perform optimally with him. this proves he is not an easy killer because only people that main him do well with trickster. these stats are 1 year old from 2022 september but trickster has no changed since then so it is safe to say that nothing has really changed for trickster.
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I don't think that is how it works... I would rather say that people that currently play him only do it for dailys or what not and barely put any effort in, sure there is some stuff you need to learn, for example when to pull out the knives and such, but there is really not much to him... He is a fairly simple killer with not much to get good at.
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I do not agree with your statement on players barely putting any effort in. most of killer in dbd are can be played with like 2 buttons. hold-W and m1. A lot of killer in the game have a very low mechanical skill-floor to use the power effectively. it is like set a trap, ring a bell, run fast with legion and press m1, you know? trickster's blades requires mechanical aim. the average player is not doing well with him. as a result, the public opinion of trickster is very low.
if you want my opinion from playing vs him as survivor, I find him easy to loop because he is extremely slow and his weaknesses towards LOS are easily exploitable so much so that I am pretty sure given a decent map layout, I think you can easily do 60 second chases with his current form even on your worst chases. The player that say he has no counter-play and that you cannot loop him is severe learn to play problem on survivor in my opinion. trickster deserves whatever buffs he gets because he is not good from my survivor point of view. Looking at numbers I don't really see much improvement from him other than him being a better m1 killer but I guess we will just need to play PTB to see.
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The threat he'll pose is real enough to be respected, that's a good thing.
Being able to easily tool killers around with endurance and strong loops is one of the main reasons why the game isn't scary.
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First of all Wraith is a bad example since using his increased lunge around loops requires some skill. For Trickster hitting the knives is not that hard because you throw like 50 of them anyway... You can correct your aim while throwing, not like Huntress.
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taking more knives to down is drawback. your conflating adjusting aim as advantage when there is little to no advantage to adjusting aim. it is always better to throw 1 projectile and get a quick down from killer time efficiency stand-point. secondly, wraith is basic m1 killer at loops. learning wraith makes you good at like half the killer. the depth in killers comes in knowledge and experience, not mechanical skill. he requires both. that is why the average does poorly as trickster and only people that main him consistent do well with him. with wraith, anyone can do well with him. he is often a common killer suggestion to begin learning dbd. no hard feeling to Mr. Trapper.
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It is anything but masterful.
New trickster is going to be extremely oppressive in chase and very miserable to face, despite still not being able to outperform gen efficient teams because he has map control of a walking killer.
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