What do you think is genuinely unfair in this game?
Trying to put ego,entitlement,bias thoughts aside what do you feel is genuinely something that is unfair to play with/against or just unhealthy or anything in that category. For me:
Nurse - Everyone knows she is busted her power ignores pallets, vaults, walls etc. all of which are core mechanics of the game meant to give survivors counterplay against killers and they mean nothing to her
Blight - Really really stupid addons for an already ridiculous power.
Bubba - AoE instadown that grants a speed boost with no real limit is absolutely ridiculous and allows stupid gameplay that basically has no real counterplay. Oni is the only other killer with such a power but it has to be earned and then has a limit, Bubba's power is just straight up unhealthy
Adrenaline - Honestly one of the very few survivor perks that I feel are genuinely problematic (now that MFT is being nerfed) it does way too much for too little effort and I honestly think it should only take effect after the gates are OPEN (or when EGC happens)
Windows - I don't think the perk is unfair but I do think it causes an issue with how survivors play. With it they basically have no reason to pay attention to the map or learn it and are basically just having their hand held the entire time so when they don't have it on they get a false sense of gameplay without having such a handicap. I honestly believe it should get a small cd (like 5-10 sec) after using one of the locations that are revealed (vaulting a window/pallet) just so they have to actually somewhat pay attention instead of having all the info thrown at them like they're toddlers
HUD changes - Hot take but I don't think solo Q needed this. Nothing changed with its additions except for already good players using it to be even more precise in their gameplay. Bad players will still ignore the fact someones in chase and hide in a corner and all the other dumb crap that came before it. BHVR needs to encourage players to learn the very bare minimum instead of just throwing them training wheels the entire time.
I had more but im done for now
Comments
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Bubba has many weaknesses such as windows and lockers. And HUD thing is MUST for soloQ I think.
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I mean high walls and line of sight blockers work against Nurse, which is why indoor maps are significantly harder to play on as her, same goes for main buildings on many maps, for example bedham... So it is not like there is nothing you can do, it is just that different things are more effective against her that provide not much for much other killers.
We are complaining about Bubba? The guy that gets stuck with his chainsaw on every branch on Eyrie or Yamaoka, or garden of joy or red forrest... I mean sure an insta down is strong but Bubba is loopable fairly easily, Sure he shreds through pallets quite fast but you cannot slide along walls like Oni, because you go into tantrum, so I don't really find the comparison on point, besides the AOE of his chainsaw I guess.
Too little Effort? You finished all 5 gens and played without a 4th perk this entire time, I think the perk is alright.
About windows, I thought similar to that as well, but there is one aspect about it that you neglect here, it also shows you which of tiles you might have already known what they are, are still usable... If you play soloq you have no clue what tiles your teammates already used, so just identifiying for example a long wall jungle gym does not really tell you whether or not some other teammate already dropped the pallet there, which is why I somewhat disagree.
The UI was more about closing the gap between soloq and swf (with coms) which I think was a good start with this one, not enough yet though. It is just a question of having a homogenous group of players to balance around that all have somewhat the same tools to use.
As for what I find unfair:
- Maps in general: They vary way too much in strenght and even the same map can spawn completely dry or busted like nothing you've seen before, and then as well maps that just have stupid ideas the community told them about but nothing changes... Maps spawning 20+ safe pallets, every tile connecting along a line, basically infinite windows in main buildings and so on... The map design is just not on spot.
- Addons: Some Killers have completely useless addons that basically add not much to their strenght and others have the most busted stuff you have ever seen... Just compare Nemesis or Freddy with Myers or Blight...
- Matchmaking: It just puts people randomly together on one day you get a literal comp team with 12 k hours each and on the next day you getthe biggest potatoes you've seen in months the inconsistency is really annoying...
- The community is something really annoying, on the one hand they complain when behaviour once again puts something that should be a basic game mechanic behind a perk so that the issue stays but if you don't like it you can use the perk, which is just ridiculous, despite not everyone having all perks at all times it stays annoying, but then they also complain when new base mechanics get introduced, because that is clearly a buff for the other and side and for some reason it is always an us vs them debate as if people only ever played one role and just because they think one thing is busted they need to be x-sided... It is such a kindergarden sometimes... And the real issue of actually going against major gameplay issues and such just gets pushed in the background over such childish things.
- The developers being stubborn about mistakes they made... It is okay to come up with bad takes and even when it is basically your game you can still have a bad take, but so many times after the community told them and over again about bad ideas they still don't learn from it... They give us the same issue ridden maps, change addons or perks in ways that are completely useless or guts killers in a way nobody wants to play them anymore, and despite having a ptb, despite having people telling them that things are a bad idea they still go through it... It just gives away the feeling that they don't really care, it just such a "My way or the high way mentality"... Oh and if they decide to fix something it takes ages... For some reason putting a light in the main building of garden of joy took like half a year or something... Come on man you have a killswitch for that stuff if something does not work like it is supposed to just killswitch it so we don't have to deal with stupid things like that.
- The game is now 7 years old and still misses basic options... You cannot mute specific players in endgame chat but only the entire chat, the graphics options used to be majorly useless for years and people needed to change numbers in files to get basic functionality which every game should have... Come on these are things that used to be standard for over a decade now, and you still haven't managed it..
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Blight
Nurse
Map Offerings
Stacking Four slowdowns against 90% of teams
SWF stacking Endurance
Tunneling against solo queue
I think most things that are actually unfair were removed. There is just a handful more that Behavior stubbornly refuses to change for whatever reason.
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The closest thing to unfair is probably map offerings. Maps can heavily swing the game in favor of one side depending on whos killer, but is still "balanced" by being rng. Offerings throw that to the curb.
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But wouldn't that just make maps the issue and not really the offerings? Because they tend to be heavily one sided it is problematic if you get send to a specific map, otherwise it would not matter... So if maps were balanced map offerings would be just for aesthetic reasons?
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Currently survivors have been and continue to be given basekit buffs, something killers haven't gotten in a long time, or ever afaik. Brutal strength could easily be made basekit and be a fair change.
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With your pretext about bias, entitlement etc, i wouldnt have expected some of your takes.
For example i would list bubbas (and some other killer) camping potential as unhealthy, but listing the power as a whole is biased.
Its similar to artists, knights etc gameplay loop of holding w and leaving loops, where i can understand its unfun for some, but this things dont fall under unfair or unhealthy.
Hud changes: really? If a player cant use it he doesnt want to get better or simply cant. How do you want encourage this players? And its great if good players get closer to swf.
For my points:
Power struggle and Flipflop in a swf. Its funny, but i dont think the killer liked it.
Buckle up and for the people. One of my friends uses it and its great against tunneler and camper, but its so easy to deny a down.
Bloodlust 3 feels unfair for solo que (swf can bodyblock). Killer loses the game but the chased survivor cant do anything.
There are some more (mostly addons), but that would take too long.
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Nurse, blight, spirit, plague, onoryo , skull merchant are unfair
and just solo Q in general, I escape like 20% of the time it's automatically unfair, imagine playing any other game let's say league of legends, but you already know before game start that your chance of winning is 20%
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Typically different killers have maps that they do well against and maps they don't. Myers for example does GREAT on indoor maps where he can be sneaky, but maps like Rotten fields kinda sucks for him. Billy on the other hand is really good on Rotten fields but suffers on indoor maps like Lery's.
It's kind of a tradeoff that SOMETIMES you'll get maps that work well with your power, and sometimes you won't. Map offerings throw that out the window. When you can pick maps that give your killer of choice the advantage and avoid the maps that killer is weak on, it just creates a false impression on how strong something is. Scratched Mirror Myers for example is basically unusable on most maps, but since it's always paired with map offerings... the kill rate is way higher than it would otherwise be.
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Flashbangs...
The fact that it's possible to be blinded by a flashbang tossed behind you is stupid.
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I didn't mean Bubba in general I mean the unhealthy gameplay he can do has no real counterplay. He can still proxy camp very effectively and once a survivor is unhooked there's basically nothing they can do the escape him. Most killers you can trade against and manage hook states to win against bubba you really can't do any of that. A bubba that's out to ruin the game can do it better than pretty much any other killer for basically no effort. Any other insta down killer can only down 1 survivor and has to trade in most cases. I don't think you normal playing Bubba is unfair.
Corrupt punishes you for doing good early and robs you of a snowball if you play really well. I refuse to accept adrenaline rewarding you for doing gens with a free health state and SB ignoring exhaust and working off hook if something like corrupt can't exist how it did it makes no sense to reward doing gens but punish downing survivors this can also be said about perks like NOED, survivors do 5 totems and i'm out of a perk before I can even use it but if I down a hook survivors they still get value out of their adren. Rewards survivors for doing side objectives but punishes the killer for doing main objective. Counterplay should exist on both sides if I down or hook a survivor they shouldn't get adren and it's even worse if everyone has it and you down 3 people then the last one finishes the final gen. I was making a comeback and just lost all my momentum and chance at said comeback because a perk rewarded them for doing down
I personally believe SWF should've just came with slight nerfs to compensate having comms as opposed to solo Q being buffed. If i'm on the hook and everyone is ignoring it because they don't know who is being chased/on a gen/doing nothing etc. that's something that can be avoided with the simple perk kindred (which people STILL ignore btw and will let someone die on hook). If someone needs healing or a protection hit I don't need to know who's in chase I can run empathy and see it for myself. They gave solo Q the tools to be in par with SWF (maybe not as precise due to real time call outs) but people ignored it in order to run the most busted stuff the game had to offer. Anything a SWF can do there are perks to let them do the same and nobody runs them because they aren't busted. That's a player issue not a SWF/Solo issue. Not everyone needs MFT,Adren,Windows,X-exhaustion perk but everyone chooses to do it if that's the risk you want to take fine but we shouldn't reward being lazy/stubborn. (Also for the record I do think survivors should be able to see each others perks in the lobby)
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Expecting forum people to put their bias aside is cray cray and requires divine power!🤠
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Killer side:
I don't personally face strong SWFs all that often (at least I don't think I do), but I think their various strengths, such as the ability to co-ordinate, call out Killer perks, synergise load outs, tell each other where the Killer is and dedicate team members to specific tasks break the way this game works. Ironically, this is down to something that isn't even "in the game" and I know there's not much BHVR can do about players using external comms software to gain an unfair advantage.
Still, they are the main reason why certain aspects of this game will never be properly balanced and they hurt SoloQ tremendously (though I acknowledge that very wide skill differences existing within the player base is also a big factor).
On Survivor side, certain perks, Killers and add ons can feel unfair to go against as a Solo player. Hex: Devour Hope, Sloppy Butcher, anything that applies a blindness effect and everything about Pinhead and his stupid Rubik's cube are a few examples that often destroy the average Solo lobby. And most of all, the fact that tunnelling is such a viable and easy to pull off strat, of course.
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Basically what LordGlint said.
We don't want maps to effectively be the same so we accept some maps will help/harm certain killers as long as it's down to RNG. But the offerings force the map unless another offering fights it.
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Survive with friends. Every problem with perks from survivors that required a nerf or a rework comes from teams using them in the same match. They're the reason the killer loadout had to be hidden until a match is completed, they're the reason Mettle of Man and Circle of Healing were nerfed, they're the reason the hatch spawns when there's only one left and keys don't immediately open hatches anymore, they're the reason the endgame collapse had to be implemented to keep them from holding matches hostage so they can pat themselves on the back. SWF should only be available for tournaments and limit the number to 2 or 4. 3 is a waste of everyone's time.
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I think it's a huge fallacy to say map offerings are unfair but maps themselves are fine.
There's functionally no difference to your game if you end up on a map at random, or via your opponent playing an offering. You can play a sacrificial ward to cancel out someone's offering, but still end up going to the same map through sheer (bad) luck anyway, and the outcome is the same. The only thing that's changed is your perception, of your opponents intentions/attitude.
Ultimately you are spending your one offering slot to give you/your team an advantage, which is the purpose of offerings. Oaks, Reagents, Blueprints, Coins, all exist to give your side an edge. Map offerings are no different.
The balance issues for most maps are very overblown. Most maps are not unplayable for one side, most maps are entirely viable even the the odds are stacked against you. The few that aren't deserve rebalancing. Which just goes to show the issue isn't offerings, but the maps themselves.
What I would like to see though, is more variation of maps within a given Realm, so that any given offerings doesn't only have a single option to send you to. Which would steer them more in the direction of being used aesthetically.
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Skill Based MatchMaking (= solo survivor misery)
Map balance
SWF
Blight's add-ons
Map offerings
Nurse
'Stacked' BNP, Syringe & few survivor perks
Hatch
If you wonder about the order, most problematic to less problematic ones from my view.
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windows, mft, and resilience (especially after the vault buffs)
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nurse and certain blight add ons would be the obvious answers.
most maps so naturally map offerings.
ftp buckle up.
tunnelling.
hittanking with endurance especially with resources survivors get after getting unhooked (bt otr and ds to some degree).
not to complain about boons since they are not very good but spammable blessing, which also is a barrier preventing boon buffs.
perma t3 myers. hot take but tombstones aren't unfair, they are very easy to play around. (facecamping 99% tombstone piece needs a change, like immunity to the mori after unhooking yourself but that's pretty much it)
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Matchmaking
Certain Killers being what they are... mostly PC and Console based cause Nurse on PC is different then Nurse on console (same with Blight)
Gen efficiency not being looked at... we need to have a version on Gens that make it possible to win a match cause the Killer didn't pay much attention to Gens but lose when "no ones doing Gens"
It would be great if both sides can prove they have the overall skill (Both mechanically and gamesense) without "I ran the Killer for 5 Gens but died so where's my MMR"... or "I had to repair all of the Gens (2-3), Get chased, Get hooked so where's my MMR"
Also the Tome's have gotten out of hand... if you have to bring a different build for one node then I don't think that it's worth it
I also believe that most of the issues are in the back end (planning and coding)
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You have to be new I guess, because Killers got decreased attack cooldown and faster pallet kicks a few years ago... We basically already got 10% there.
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Yes which makes them somewhat one sided, which is generally speaking bad map design, unless of course you make it so not every killer can get every map. Even stealth killers can still somewhat work well on most maps if you have some high line of sight blockers.
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Your going to have a hard time making maps equally good for every killer. Some killers due well with LOS Blockers, while some like Huntress or Singularity are the opposite. This doesn't mean The Game should be reworked because Huntress can't throw hatchets at range.
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Two things: SWF and gigantic maps
SWF is unfair, only because BHVR ignores that they exist when they create and balance things. We constantly see new perks/features introduced in PTBs and SWF groups immediately show it to be completely broken (5+ endurance hits, healing faster than the killer can attack, etc).
It's like no one at BHVR realizes SWF is a thing when they're building something and it takes them by surprise EVERY TIME when it's exploitable by SWF to the point of invincibility, and they have to scramble to add a fix.
I don't think SWF should be removed, nor do I think it should have its own queue. Despite the fact that SWF has a clear, objective advantage, they're clearly never going to adjust for it so I just want BHVR to take them into account when they create things, and to add some kind of SWF indicator in the lobby.
As for maps, we've seen BHVR make an effort to shrink maps lately and reduce pallet counts and safe loops, but IMO they haven't gone far enough in either case. Lots of maps are still gigantic, chock full of safe pallets, and have multiple chainable god windows (with an occasional infinite thrown in).
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Things that are unfair in the game?
Windows of Opportunity.
It's not really unfair...
Goes on the list anyway.
*Keeps reading...*
THE HUD?!
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Tunneling and meta players being matched with non-meta players.
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I don't know that I really feel anything is unfair ATM. There are some unfun things to play as and against but I wouldn't say they are unfair anymore. Apart from rng dealing a bad hand on occasion and a few map annoyances, which can go both ways.
Matchmaking and MMR can also feel unfair sometimes but if that were fixed the queue times would seem unfair as well lol.
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I think it is genuinely unfair to players that we don't have separate queues or game modes yet
I think designing killers for certain peripheral inputs like on PC but not controller is unfair
The most unfair thing to me is the poor optimization across consoles, especially for users of a platform like Switch. I would classify Switch treatment as being a step away from cruel and unusual punishment
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The performance on the Switch is fine. As long as you are falling down a flight of stairs whilst playing you won't even notice the frame drops.
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How did I forget about the huge maps? Totally agree. It can be so punishing to play on these maps with a poor mobility Killer. Lately it seems like BHVR have realised this, so the issue should improve a little with any future maps / reworks.
I think it's mostly fine too (outside of the events, anyway). It's better than it was, though a couple of maps here and there are still bad.
But Haunted by Daylight was a pretty rough experience all round.
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I disagree with Bubba, Adrenaline and the HUD.
Bubba offers a lot of counterplay. He can't go through walls, so he still needs to catch up around a loop. There are situations where you just go down because you cannot make it around the loop and drop the pallet before he downs you, but really you have no reason to even be in that position. You reach the loop first and if you know that this won't work, then don't give him the pallet side.
Adrenaline means that survivors play with only 3 perks throughout the match and still make it to end game. That is a big deal, which definitely balances out the strong effect of Adrenaline in my opinion.
The HUD is a great addition. It is very useful and provides information that helps with some of the most common solo mistakes like nobody (or multiple people) going for the unhook and of course it also helps knowing that it's safe to work on certain gens when the killer is off chasing someone else. But this is information that survivors that play with comms have anyway and to a degree solo survivors need to be brought closer to SWFs to balance more fairly.
Tunneling isn't really unfair (I think there are ways to counter it, which just aren't used enough. Though, a few more tools or reverting the DS nerf wouldn't hurt either.) but the second point is definitely true. Both sides have the tools to give themselves huge advantages and if only one side is using them, then that results in a huge inbalance. It doesn't mean it's impossible to win without using anything meta (I certainly win a lot still) but it can feel like your playing against an unbeatable force.
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I don't think there is too much that is genuinely unfair in this game.
Usually its a combination of things that result in exploitative or near unwinnable scenarios - like ol AFK pig. They tend to get patched out.
But for the most part things have a counter if you apply yourself and when something feels kinda biased in one direction it often fits thematically, not always but mostly.
About the only thing that is game breakingly unfair would be external comms.
Sadly a lot of gameplay gets attenuated by communicating in real time.
It also affords a level of coordination that the game doesn't really buffer well against. Attempts to buffer against it often result in highly skewed effects that overly punish players whom aren't using external comms.
So either they make rulesets on the basis that everyone coordinates as if they are on external comms, which doesn't really work... or we accept that occasionally you are going to get games were external comms break the game and you just need to bite the bullet and move on from it.
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😂🤣☠️ That one got me weak lol.
My exaggerations aside, I think a fairer take i'd give on that topic would be fine to play, for the most part, but underperforming compared to console counterparts and PC and (arguably) harder to be competitive against cross-console matchups.
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I disagree with everything expect blight add ons. Nurse is fine, bubba is weak... Adrealine is balanced it would be garbage without good effect as it only work when gens are done. Killer has equal perk as well noed which almost always quarantee extra kill or two if you play right.
Windows is fine it best effect is showing what pallets are used so the perk helps significantly soloQ players. If the effect showing pallet is nerfed that won't affect experienced players but hurt newbies. Hud is not enough for soloQ but it is improvement now we just need basekit kindred.
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Bodyblocking, all it does it promote toxicity.
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The matchmaking probably
I'll be matched up with a full p100 sweat squad with meta perks while I'm a level 10 demogorgan with 2 green perks and no add-ons.
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I really dislike FTP/Buckle up combo and adrenaline.
First thing is just cheap, the other is extremely oppressive. It shouldn't just manifest up to 4 healthstates & self pick ups out of thin air just because survivors gave up healing and prove thyself'ed last gen.
On survivor side I hate Nurse as well, she's too easy for how good she is and her counterplay is incomparably harder.
Otherwise, I utterly despise deathslinger / demo / any other killer with a gameplay of holding their power and cancelling it when survivor is zoned away from vault or hitting survivor midanimation. Xenomorph is the only exception because his power adds extra layer of gameplay and his zoning isn't that good because how short ranged his m2 is. Same thing applies to nemesis to a lesser extent.
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Adrenaline - the perk is a dead slot the entire game, activates once and you need to complete your objective to get value. If the effet was weaker than it is now it would be absolutely worthless.
As for my opinion, not in order of importance
1) NOED - Pretty much the opposite of adrenaline. A perk that activates because your opponents finished their objective (aka you're losing) shouldn't be this strong
2) The fact that solos can't see their teammates loadouts when swf can just tell eachother. Maybe unfair is not the right feeling but it's certainly annoying
3) Survivor noises not being equal. It's a pain that some survivors are harder to play as or against because BHVR lied when they said they would equalize their sounds
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survivors making a faint noise when slow vaulting....What the point of slow vaulting a window if the killer can still hear you with head set?
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God loops/pallets are the most glaring unfair thing to me. It blows my mind that people complain about “uninteractive” killers like Nurse and old DS, yet have no problem with survivors having the most uninteractive thing in the game.
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It's hard to feel something is unfair without a personal belief, yet in your defence bias can be truthful also.
For me, I feel the biggest example of unfairness in the game is the matchmaking. It is a hard obstacle to deal with and - to be reasonable - the devs have made attempts at trying to balance it better. Unfortunately, it still suffers from some very dubious matchups. New players suddenly find themselves in a battlefield of hardened swfs against an omnipotent Nurse. Likewise, a veteran suddenly finds themself leading new recruits against a Myers who hasn't understood how to stalk and yet they all die anyway. It can be problematic.
I'm not saying that BHVR hasn't tried at all. I'd say they've done a decent job of it, but they're balancing the unbalanceable and, by the very nature of the matchmaking and game, it will remain unfair at times.
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It's so funny when people use "camping" argument only when talking about Bubba. Is it a real problem when Bubba can get his 1 kill in the endgame? Bubba has many weakneses like windows & bad hitboxes on the maps. I think Bubba is one of the best balanced Killers in the game. If he makes mistake - 5-8 second Tantrum (against decent Survivors it's gg). If Survivor makes a mistake - he is downed. And Bubba is a very skillful killer at little bit higher level than "W" on the loops with Chainsaw. But 99% just don't know how to play him properly. It's not DBD 2017 when basic stuff works.
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Nerf blight and nurse
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Definitely harder to play, for sure. I know I certainly don't play as well I do on PC as either Killer or Survivor. When I'm frenzying with The Legion, it's much harder to effectively chain hits and it makes me not want to play my main quite so often. Good news for the Survivors that hate them, I guess.
When you consider that the Switch version is essentially the mobile gaming port of the game, it's a little easier to forgive its sins. But it's still the worst version of the game. That said, I would absolutely continue to play and enjoy DBD if I only had a Switch to play it on.
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I'm not sure I would agree with your point about NOED. If the Survivors haven't opened the gates and escaped yet, the game isn't over yet. In other words, their objective isn't finished at all. Or else we might as well say all endgame perks are unfair, for both sides. It's an annoying, somewhat cheesy perk, but I wouldn't go as far as to say it's unfair because like Adren, you're playing the rest of the game with only three perks.
But otherwise, I agree (especially survivor noises).
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I play on switch, and I can confirm it's definitely playable but nobody should ever look at it if they have another console. The frame drops aren't the worst thing ever, I've played other games on switch where the frames are consistently much worse, but the view distance is the real problem. Dude I cannot see anything, I'm already not that good at tracking survivors because of my poor eyesight, but the switch version makes it much worse. I can physically see the pixels on my screen.
It's so bad that when a survivor isn't right in front of my face I genuinely cannot see them, it's like they've drank an invisibility potion or something. Also everything is way too dark, might just be my TV though. The darkness paired with the viewing distance makes for a not so fun experience as killer. And the fov seems really low, it's really easy for somebody to spin and cause me to miss. It just feels clunky a lot of the times, that's why I almost always run shadowborn on all killers. Although, the fov could just be a problem with base dbd in itself.
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Myers' tombstone add-ons. Why tunnel someone when you can instantly delete Survivors with a single click?
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Totally agree with this.
Adrenaline only gives you value if you make to end game and are injured/hooked. at least half the time you get no value. I just can't look at a perk that only gives you value part of the time as being unfair.
And the HUD was huge (maybe vital) for solo queue and almost irrelevant to players in SWF/comms, so it's helping those who need it (which is most of the surv player base), and not so much the survs who were already dominating.
What do I think is really, truly unfair? Not much. Blight's busted add-ons, Nurse's power (I don't even really look at Nurse matches as even being part of the broader game), SWF comms (but that really doesn't matter, since there's nothing to be done for it).
And none of that keeps me up at night or anything.
Now that I think of it, map balance (or lack thereof) is probably the most unfair thing in the game; being immediately screwed by the parameters of the match isn't ideal.
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There is a difference between maps being basically the same and maps being equally balanced but with other tiles... I think there should not be maps that provide an inherent benefit or disadvantage to certain killers, the maps should all be balanced, you can still have variance via the used tiles and how the mpa looks, but you should not be hoping for some maps to just never appear because they are terrible to play on for half the killers in the game.
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The game should be reworked because it is a terrible map with 20+ safe pallets and no reason to ever greed a pallet or to show some form of skill, the map is just atrocious.
Just because it is hard does not mean it should not be done. There just should not be maps that offer no high walls at all and there shouldnt be maps that have nothing else... Because the one side of the coin destroys stealth approaches and the other one is miserable against Range killers and Nurse and many more... It is really not that hard to find a middle ground here.
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