Remove the anti-facecamp mechanic.
Before anyone says that I just want to be toxic, that's not why I want it removed.
It's become very clear that this addition has achieved nothing. Killers who want to camp still camp, killers who didn't before still don't. The only difference is that they either
- Stand ever so slightly further away than they used to.
- Face-camp with tombstone to entirely bypass endurance.
A near-useless feature that adds yet-another bar new survivors have to ascertain the meaning of (and new killers have to learn the existence of) is the definiton of bloat. So remove it.
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Stand ever so slightly further away than they used to.
If they’re standing further away, then survivors have a much better chance of pulling of a save. Sounds like the system is a success to me 🤷♂️
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Against the killers that were adept at facecamping, they can still prevent unhooks.
Bubba you still trade at best, Slinger can still hold a would-be unhooker on-harpoon to buy extra hook time. Against killers that were bad at it before, they're still bad at it. So nothing has changed.
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Oh yeah the feature is absolutely useless unless the killer is stupid enough to breathe on your face. I've had many campers just going in and out of the zone so the bar doesn't fill all the way before you die, and if survivors try to save it pauses the bar so the killer can just proper facecamp.
However, it doesn't hurt to keep it even if it's only very rarely useful.
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The feature got rid of facecamping, so it did what it was supposed to do... What exactly is the problem here?
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The damage has already been done
removing AFC will have so much negative effects in the aftermath of the removal so that’s a big no
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The system was never meant to prevent all camping as a whole. It just punishes killers who stand next to the hook the entire time which was heavily complained about.
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what is wrong with trading now? what is the Killer even allowed to do?
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Nothing. I'm just saying that anti facecamp hasnt meaningfully changed the way killers camp nor the way you resolve it.
I know. It just doesn't punsih that because they stand slightly away from the hook instead whilst still achieving what a facecamp did.
Sure, if you consider the problem of facecamping just that the killer was stood right next to you and consider no further implications with facecamping as a whole (which were not resolved).
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The whole point of facecamping was that it made trades too difficult for uncoordinated teams. When the killer is farther away, being able to perform a hook trade is significantly easier because the killer has to move closer first while the unhook is being done.
Killers are allowed to defend hooks and not every hook is going to be a free unhook for the survivor.
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Face camping is by definition the act of standing right in your face, like this close. Whereas camping as a whole from further distance is something else, either camping or proxy camping...
So the goal of anti face camping (standing like 20cm away from the hook) has been achieved. Sure there are still other problems but the one this thing was designed for was reached so.... where is the issue?
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The change was never meant to address camping as a whole; only face-camping. Do you feel like in your experience it doesn't address face-camping well enough?
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It works to well, uhooking has never been safer. Bad saves get bad results.
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Face camping was already long gone when they implemented that you can unhook from all angles.
With this new „Anti-Face-Camp“ feature you can just guard the hook from a safe distance and when you see a survivor going for the unhook you can get closer and still get your trade, just like before.
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Literal face camping was never a big issue to begin with. In the maybe 5 games out of 100 it did happen, if the killer was stupid enough to sit on me for 2 whole minutes then he just lost 3 gens.
Unfortunately I don't get the option to waste a stupid killers time anymore.
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agree 100%, the mechanic changed nothing. ive been hook camped alot since the update and killers just proxy.
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Facecamping was always a losing strategy. If you noticed no change, that's because you were already playing against decent killers.
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I have not seen a single facecamper since it was introduced. I'd say it was a resounding success in that regard.
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Doctor can just shock threrap and prevent the unhook. You can still camp at least 11s from close and even longer if there is survivor trying to save. So anticamping barely does anything to those who adapted to it. I think the range is not enough and it should fill faster. Doctor facecamping power should be nerfed.
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Just bring two survivors and approach in a way that the shock cannot hit both, when the first one gets interrupted by the shock you walk in and unhook. It is really not that hard man.
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Don't expect that ramdom solos can pull that off until it's too late. Doctor needs nerf in this he is in a way better facecamper than bubba and that should not be the case. What I mean that bubba at least takes skill to facecamp.
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I agree with OP. There are flaws. I think this was to prevent the basement camps but there have been plenty of games were the killers lurked in the corners and were able to camp. Otherwise the former face campers just weave in and out and it has made tunneling easier for them.
This was supposed to make the killers patrol more and it hasn't per the interview and it hasn't. It either needs to be deleted to tweeked.
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As this thread and many others before it have shown, people are using the term face camping but really meaning proxy camping or just keeping an eye on the hook from a distance.
BHVR addressed literal face camping, which was a negligible issue at best and a good way for killers to waste their time. Proxy camping is not going to be addressed since it has been acknowledged as a valid killer tactic by BHVR multiple times.
The face camping mechanic can stay or go, it doesnt matter to good killers anymore than it did before it existed.
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My experience is that it doesn't really address face camping at all, and only adds another bar to the game that would confuse new players on both sides.
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Killers are allowed to defend hooks and not every hook is going to be a free unhook for the survivor.
I know. I feel like i'm having to say this 20 thousand times because y'all are inferring that I'm advocating for something I'm not.
That the issue of face camping was not just "oh no the killer is stood right next to me" it was "the killer has made unhooking genuinely impossible outside of a very coordinated SWF and against Bubba not even then", which it has not fixed. So why bother keeping the mechanic in the game? Who's only mad about the killer being stood 20cm from their face and no other aspect of face camping?
This is quite literally my point. "just like before."
Step 1: Get two survivors that know they're both needed for the unhook.
Step 2: Get them to correctly, without comms, position themselves so they can get the unhook.
Get this consistently in SoloQ and I'll stop complaining about the difference between SoloQ and SWF.
How people define face camping and proxy camping is entirely arbitrary. I'd consider a bubba stood just outside of the anti-camp radius but ready to shove forward and facecamp the second a survivor shows up to pause the timer still face camping. Wouldn't you?
Fundamentally, I think people have misunderstood my point by filling in my motives for why I want it to be changed. I care equally if the killer camps me at 20cm or 8m. It's camping either way. But the anti-facecamp mechanic just adds yet another layer of unexplained complexity to playing matches that new players *are not taught*, and if it's not even making getting face-camped easier to deal with then what's the point in keeping it in the game?
More broadly, I'd appreciate not being condascended to by a dozen people with the cookie cutter response whenever someone complains about anti face camp. I know it wasn't meant to fix a killer just checking in - referred to as proxy camping. My argument is that killers still undertake actions that I would regard as face camping (sitting unmoving just outside the radius until a survivor shows up and then moves in to blatantly face camp), so the mechanic achieves nothing and should be removed.
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Considering the number of complaints i still see about Killers saying AFC is too strong, the idea that it does nothing is ridiculous. Yes, if you know what you're doing you can work around it, but where this actually matters (at low mmr) killers generally don't know how to effectively camp from a distance.
Secondly, you cant define the changes in gameplay this has had out of existence. The changes are real, no matter how much you want to reject them. Yes, there are still issues with the system, the solution is to modify it, not to get rid of it. Devs have already said they are going to make changes so that tombstone doesn't go through endurance, and i'm sure they will consider other changes. The fact you decide to ignore all of this kinda comes off as you being dishonest.
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Considering the number of complaints i still see about Killers saying AFC is too strong, the idea that it does nothing is ridiculous. Yes, if you know what you're doing you can work around it, but where this actually matters (at low mmr) killers generally don't know how to effectively camp from a distance.
Given your accusation of dishonesty, I'll be blunt:
...that adds yet-another bar new survivors have to ascertain the meaning of (and new killers have to learn the existence of)
I outright state that I think this is at it's most potent in low MMR, but due to a lack of knowledge on the part of the survivors. I literally say the thing you're accusing me of not saying, and express my belief that it's a bad thing - that a mechanic that does very little punishes people simply for the act of not knowing it is bad.
Secondly, you cant define the changes in gameplay this has had out of existence. The changes are real, no matter how much you want to reject them. Yes, there are still issues with the system, the solution is to modify it, not to get rid of it.
Once again, I'll be blunt:
Name them. Name the changes. Becuase I named changes. That killers stand a teensy bit further away than they did before. Besides this, I knew that any suggestion to modify the AFC mechanic would be met with swathes of criticism an accusations that I'm an entitled [role] depending on what changes I wanted to see - and lots of condascension. It appears that suggesting to outright remove it was no better.
Devs have already said they are going to make changes so that tombstone doesn't go through endurance, and i'm sure they will consider other changes. The fact you decide to ignore all of this kinda comes off as you being dishonest.
I haven't seen this statement from the devs, but the presumption that I am omniscient when it comes to this game and it's correspondence and am therefore intentionally withholding information is flattering, to say the least.
But I'd ask that you presume a lack of malintent next time? People are allowed to not know things.
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The mechanic is not supposed to bridge the gap between solo and swf though Sooooo... You re barking up the wrong tree here.
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How does Bubba need skill to facecamp but doctor doesn't? ^^ One needs to time his shock the other has an ibsta down xD
Well then that I'd a skill issue on the survivor side isn't it?
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I miss face camping as a killer. It was a strong strategy to secure kills.
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Its not made to counter camping or to stop killers prevent unhooks. Its made to stop facecamping, and it does.
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It was absolutely skill less and somewhat even stupid, because proxy camping has always been the stronger strategy.
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Maybe my reply was a bit terse but it's a personal annoyance when I see one thing talked about and meaning another. I work in IT so it happens a lot. It wasn't aimed at you personally, I've seen face camping and proxy camping used interchangeably for a while now.
For the purposes of objective discussion and how BHVR balances things, face camping cant be an arbitrary definition. BHVR themselves seem to have defined it at 16m, and while I don't personally agree with that, I imagine it has a lot to do with the basement area.
Running with that, I will define camping as standing still outside of the 16m range and proxy camping as moving around outside the 16m range.
Proxy camping has the green light from BHVR so that just leaves regular camping.
Is it boring to be stuck on a hook? Yes. Can that be used to your teams advantage? Also yes. If the killer is dumb enough to sit there unmoving waiting for you to die, you can waste as much of their time as possible by not trying to kobe and your team can crank out 3 gens easy if they split up. Is that an acceptable answer to all survivors? No, I'm sure it's not but realistically what can they do that wont punish the killers that don't play that way? I will always be opposed to actions that punish the majority for the actions of a minority.
The other point being discussed here is the value of the AFC. From my point of view it's worthless because literal face camping was barely an issue. From your point of view it's worthless because it's not taught to new players and killers just stand outside the radius. End point, we both agree it's worthless.
If it stays(and let's not kid ourselves, it will) I propose a visible radius for both killer and survivors during that 7 second ramp up time. In addition, the tutorial needs to be updated where it thoroughly explains the new mechanics added since all new players have to go through that first.
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The fun part is body blocking pathways to secure a kill. In some maps, particularly RPD, you could body block the pathways so survivors couldn't unhook. For proxy camping, it's still a nerf when camping basement since you can't just stand at the basement entrance anymore.
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You actually can still do that, since the meter does not work vertically as much as horicontally... Which makes this issue quite problematic tbh.
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From my experience I have seen possibly 2 games where I have been clearly facecamped. Maybe roughly 30 games where the killer has camped the hook subtly. But there has been a clear decline in facecamping as a whole since the update.
I will say however that if a killer does want you dead then you won't be leaving that game alive regardless lol. I feel like it should stay as somewhat of a deterrent to stop the awful facecamping/tunnelling that was witnessed in the game before because let me tell you, it really was open season on survivors.
Edit: it's actually funny, not even an hour after posting this I did get a trapper face camping me. Maybe it's slowly on the rise once again.
Post edited by MoNosEmpire on0 -
After a month and a half break? I would say that the anti face camp mechanic is pretty good at what it does. The main problem I have with it is that newer players won't even know what it means. They should be taught about it. At least in the tutorial.
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Doctor does not have to time anything just spawn it mindlessly bubba on other hand has to time his chainsaw perfectly to prevent unhook. Bubba chainsaw takes much more skill than doctor even small obstacle can make it tantrum.
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Ofc he has to time it, if you don't get a survivor that is close enough with your shock he will just unhook during the the time it takes you to shock plus the shock delay... Bubba has an ibsta down and can just charge the saw if you get to close with much of an issue...
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I barely ever saw face camping in games when i did it was funny (before the feature). Proxy camping is the real problem especially with certain killer powers: ranged killers, 99 stealth killers, stb4l perk, etc. Killers are barley punished on the emblem system for camping (have to facecamp the whole game for it to be detrimental).
A very simple thing to try is to severely punish bp and the emblem for camping (amongst other cheap sh*t used vs soloq). As survivor if I do the easiest thing possible as survivor, only hide and escape, i won't pip in basically every scenario. As killer you will get rewarded for doing the easiest stuff possible (proxy camping, tunneling,sligging).
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I don't think anybody cares about BP or the emblems at that point... Your emblems are completely ruined regardless... So I don't think this would help much if at all...
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well i knew if i suggested any in game mechanic i'd make people cry. And how they punish survivor for doing easy compared to rewarding killer for doing ez, shows bhvrs true bias.
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