The Trickster Rework Issues That Need to Be Talked About

they need revert his throwing-rate back to from 3.0->4.0.

the predict problem with their changes is that trickster's throwing-rate will be too slow for his 8 knife limit. the survivor is going to be able face-tank knives and then LOS which will result in all your knives regressing. It means you will have to constantly farm main event for that 33% throwing-rate just to get 1 health-state than do that all over again. That is way too slow of a 1vs1.

you can use these add-on to bring laceration decay to old 15 seconds. you mention that as being a problem. it is just that using add-on to fix drawback = weak killer.

Console Noob Here, from my layman's perspective this looks like a very good analysis, I was able to follow very well. I do have a few questions, since chances to talk to high level Trickster players don't come by often...

From what I've heard in discussions around Trickster, a lot of Survivor's get frustrated playing against Trickster because of his ability to churn through health states from camping and mowing down the unhooking and the unhooked player, and also how breaking LoS and using pallets doesn't tend to save you cause he keeps chipping you down once he's on you. From your concerns about his lost strengths these critiques/frustrations seem to be justified?

Assuming so, you talk a lot about him being an altruism stomper, someone who can cut down survivors going for unhooks, especially hard punishing basement saves by chewing through player health states off hook. Would it be preferable to be pushed away from this style of play?

You also mention how the new 10 second decay hurts him a lot because it means he has to respect pallets more and has to be very accurate with his Main Event in order secure downs due to the slow rate he fires daggers at base, combined with the number of daggers it takes to down. Doesn't having to be accurate with your knives and knowing exactly when to pull them up at specific loops to maintain you laceration (easier at 4.6m/s) require skill expression?

Lastly does the fast charge of Main Event give a strong anti loop by virtue of the mind games having it on hand provides? Surely the constant threat of it does something to influence survivor behaviour at loops?

Not all critiquing the analysis, just asking because I believe the goal of BHVRs rework was to: -

• Help Tricksters map traversal and chase at loops with 4.6m/s (Pretty clear cut, but I'd assume to make him less reliant on hook camping/tunneling).
• Bring up his Main Event to occur more naturally. (I'd assume to free up Trickster players to use their knives when then want to, instead of having to constantly count around their proc of Main Event)
• Encourage a more machine gun rapid fire style of gameplay (as having to dodge knives constantly, which the rapid main event charge, no recoil, higher laceration count, and faster recovery from laceration all supports)

Are you against these tenets?

Apologies for the wall!

Then there's me...

The weirdo who loved release Trickster enough to P3 him under the old system and pilot exclusively him to my first Iri 1 rank (pre mmr). Who instantly dropped him when his post launch changes came out. Who is also now super excited about these new changes because they seem like a return to release but better... except the laceration decay.

Thanks! That clears up a lot of the gaps in my knowledge when reading through the doc!

I actually like the 4.4 version you propose more... get naturally encouraged to land knives more often, and from a newbie perspective, the shorter ME is harder to capitalise with, but also less punishing for screwing it up.

I would imagine these changes would struggle to incentivise many new players to pick him up though 🤔

The 4.6 version seems more radical and enticing to the less informed.

Listen…BHVR. Look….

I appreciate the attempt to address areas that made Trickster frustrating to play. But this is not it…it misses the mark completely. It is so far removed from the strength he had in PTB, and is so unfun to play and overall more weak. He has lost his uniqueness to his special ability Main Event as a showstopping, crowd controlling, multiple survivor threatening power to…”take a hit so he wastes it, or just go behind a rock” and that works…against his “special” ability. It is not just underwhelming it literally killed what made this a threatening killer special.

The lack of build up to 4 blades p/s to static 3, and the whatever slow-motion blades p/s of Main Event, ESPECIALLY ON CONSOLE completely overshadows no recoil, makes him feel bad to use, makes main event feel bad to use on top of it being useless because of its short duration and laceration meter. Not to mention shorter duration means you can only use it one way, it feels stale and lack luster. Its mechanical, and rigid. Its no longer exciting to use Main Event especially not being a reward from achieving it in the first place. Its just a dime a dozen. It was the heart of the character....not just a way to spam a survivor.

You can no longer use main event in different ways or creatively, whether moonwalking at a tile to surprise a survivor, long shots (for faster throw rate) to down a single survivor at a distance, nor can you use it to secure a down or securing a hook as effectively against altruistic swfs (ESPECIALLY end game with the survivor 99 a gate tactic to swarm a hook, and if you though hook grabbing was awkward...) its less effective against sabo/breakout squads, overly alriutistic plays/hookfarming, or against multiple people greeding 1 gen at a time. His Main Event being weaker and less threatening means survivors don’t have to play strategically against him and this makes him boring to go against…it also takes AWAY from his map pressure now, because Main Event can easily be countered, this is a real concern in Medium to High MMR...

The laceration meter to “counter balance” this Main Event you were so afraid would be op from PTB….has nerfed him tremendously, for a Main Event that doesn’t help secure downs when it counts….Main Event is too short and too often. This nerfs Trickster for the exact players you were hoping it would help appeal to, beginner and intermediate Trickster players who are no longer in low MMR. He was already fine at MMR, he decimates lower MMR. The goal was retention wasn’t it?

He feels less fun to play because this Trickster makes me only focus on securing a down quickly by any means necessary opposed to having more room for creatively using his knives without worrying about the punishing laceration meter. This New Main Event and ALL the nerfs to make it feel “fair” for the people who never play him, hardly go against him and refuse to learn to counter him and DC, have made him mechanical and tedious to play now. He has lost his soul and energy that I got from getting good shots, or using Main Event at a clutch time.

4.6 and no recoil were meant to help bring newer Tricksters in and make him feel less frustrating, as well as thinking about console players who refused to touch Trickster because the recoil on top of joystick was incredibly hard. And I don’t want this to come off like Im not grateful for that. I do appreciate your consideration….I do appreciate 4.6 and no recoil….HOWEVER….You have completely overshadowed that with his New Main Event duration, his throw rate, and laceration decay. 4.6 was never going to make this killer op….it was just an update that I felt he just needed in general, not even a buff, just an update to the endless amount of endurance and haste perks in the game, for ascending beyond low MMR, and tackling SWFS who take good control of gen pressure across the map…….For the average Trickster. But these changes make it feel like you seriously overestimated the average Trickster player at 4.6, with average aim, which is the majority. You made things worse while offering something I think was just needed in general in return. If 4.6 is so scary to give without nerfing his strengths into the ground, gutting an entire playstyle and addons, nerfing his laceration, or throw rate. Then make him the 4.4 again, or the first 4.5 killer. Meet in the middle….Lose the nerfs, change Main Event to be an rewarding showstopper. It doesn't have to be 30 knives to build but it didn't have to be 6 or 8 knives either.

Speaking of meeting in the middle, why go to the extreme for Main Event and the nerfs to “balance” it? THAT feels like back pedaling and panic nerfing because of backlash from people who rarely play Trickster, and RARELY go against him. If newer Tricksters struggle with aim, and have trouble building main event up fast enough to be fun for them….then why not have made Main Event 15 or even 20 knives to build up main event. Hell even the 25 OP suggested is good because it usually is about 5 or less knives away from Main Event that I usually realize Im out of knives. Then you wouldn’t feel the need to have to “counter balance” with all that was taken away.

Keep Main Event longer and less often triggered, so you don’t have to nerf him into the ground, alienate an entire player base of Tricksters who play him for accuracy and skill. If the cost of new Main Event is making him unfun to play and boring, then what is the point of all of this? Trickster felt good in PTB because he was overall strong. He wasn’t OP, just very strong. Yet that was too scary? Meanwhile, Blight and Nurse get a pass? What was wrong with making him go up a Tier in strength? This Trickster feels terrible and I would prefer the prePTB and I am on console if that says anything. I am 700hr Trickster (not quite intermediate)….I have decent aim on GOOD DAYS, I struggle at higher mmr, I get gen rushed, my ankles get broken at tiles and loops, all the time... The play style of going for accuracy is difficult for me and the perks I use are to make up for his slower speed nothing aura revealing, or super oppressive. So believe me I understand the people who say Trickster is painful to play sometimes. I truly understand. But at least he feels good to use, it feels good to use Main Event and his knives, you could play him in different ways. You had the option to make it harder to play or easier to play (with the right perks and using Basic attack more). You had the option to use Main Event by just popping it whenever, to secure an injure, or 1 down, or strategically. With Trickster before this update, you could play to hit experimental shots without being severely punished (laceration decay) you could afford it because of the laceration decay. Now I feel like I cant do that, and if I want to get kills I just need to basic attack more, use main event less. And that’s so sad for such a unique killer.

This Trickster has lost his versatility and what made him threatening to swfs. Which is mostly what you are going to see as you go up MMR. I don’t want to wait for the newer Tricksters to realize this after the honeymoon phase in lower MMR with this update. But Im not sure who BHVR is listening to if not the people who have hours on this character both playing him and playing against him. I personally feel terrible about all of this because I was on PTB Trickster hype train. I was also a huge advocate for 4.6, no recoil, and giving us stronger variety of add ons. But if I knew BHVR was going to backpedal so hard from PTB, and gut my playstyle I am aiming for and rip the joy out of playing Trickster which is throwing knives not spamming them, I would have said pls just don’t attempt it then. But I know BHVR can make this right. Pls, make this right.