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How do you think the devs should handle the issue of tunneling?
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Devs need to completely cut down tunneling and then have a look on how players would play the game to make further adjustments. But theyre by far to scared to do so.
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IMHO they need to hit the killers where it hurts the most... their blood points and rank. BHVR can code the game in such a way that if the killer downs or hooks someone back to back, or if they go after the unhooked survivor, they will lose either half their blood points when the match is over or if they would have pipped in the match they lose that pip. BHVR CAN do something about the tunneling but they chose not to and it's disgusting.
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They could code that but, more importantly, they can't code a way for you to find a game after no-one wants to play Killer any more.
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Make it not possible and rebalance the game around it.
Tunneling is required against high level survivors because the game simply goes too fast for them. Better would be to make it impossible to "get someone out early" and then balance the game around 4 survivors being in the game longer.
My proposal has always been:
- Scrap the current AFC mechanic (you aren't going to need it)
- Make kindred base kit and make it work through blindness.
- Remove the ability to 4%, all it does is lead to griefing, or RNG causing games to go longer than they should, or for killers to lose due to RNG.
- Rework the luck mechanic now that 4% is removed (maybe tie it to items or skill checks or something)
- All survivors now share the 1st hook state, and only go into second stage after the team's first hook state has been removed.
- Basically, this means that in order to kill a survivor you have to go through 6 hook states minimum before you can eliminate them.
- This also means if you hard tunnel someone, you have to hook them 6 times to kill them
- Camping means you need to wait 6 hook states (a full 6 minutes)
- This basically eliminates camping and tunneling as a strategy to win, because camping for 6 minutes against a team with kindred is going to easily cost you the game. That gives 3 survivors plenty of time to finish 5 gens, 99 the gates, and then go in a for a couple of save attempts
- Only the FIRST hook state is shared, after that survivors each have 2 individual hook states. This means that 1 survivor can't cause you to die on your first hook, you'll always get at least 2 chances.
- Now that camping and tunneling are not effective strategies for winning, now you need to make them not possible for killers who want to be toxic. And you do that by doing this:
- Remove the basekit borrowed time
- Survivors now gain a new status effect called "Ethereal" for 30 seconds after being hooked.
- While a survivor is ethereal:
- They see the aura of all other survivors
- They are invisible to the killer
- They make no noise
- They make no scratch marks
- They have no collision with other players or killer objects (like traps) (no hitbox)
- They are unable to perform any action other that heal or be healed.
- They move at 200% movement speed.
- Basically, they get spirit's power.
- Deactivates in endgame.
- The idea here is that, after being unhooked, you have plenty of time to go run to a teammate away from the killer and get healed so you can get back into the game. The killer CAN'T tunnel you, because they don't know where you went, and you can't abuse that to body block for the person who just saved you. On top of that, the killer now knows that you effectively have a 30 second timeout where you can't be working on gens. This means the killer knows they have a little time to go chase someone else and they KNOW you can't be hard tunneling a gen without getting healed because you can't do anything else anyway.
Then after all that, if facecamping is still a problem (it shouldn't be) but if it is, you add in this mechanic:
- If the killer stands within 8 meters of a hook, the survivor is teleported to a hook that is closest to the teammate that is furthest away from the killer. (Basically, if the killer camps you, you get teleported away, and by the time the killer gets to you, your teammate should have unhooked you, giving you that ethereal status meaning the killer can't tunnel you.
From there, you probably need to buff killers in some way, probably by doing something to gen speeds or an early trial warmup to get the game started. etc.
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Fair point. Probably deactivate it if the unhooked survivor does a conspicuous action similarly to DS or give it a time limit.
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The overall efficiency of each survivor is equal to 25%. Killing a survivor results in 25% less efficiency, as one survivor is worth 25%. The team is 25% less efficient when they are a man down. With 4 people, you can have one in chase, and a 2-1 split on gens. With 3 people, you can have 1 in chase and 2 working gens either separately or together. The team is significantly less likely to escape when they are a man down because they are less efficient.
Your suggestion may indeed alleviate tunneling, but is an equally terrible outcome. You've suggested basekit 4-stack Thana, with the activation condition of Grim Embrace. A 25% reduction is massive for a basekit change. The killrate would go up, while the escape rate would drop. It already takes 90 seconds to complete a generator solo. A 25% reduction increases that by a whole 30 seconds. That's now 2 minutes to complete a generator solo. Assuming my math is correct, it would take around 83 seconds for two survivors to complete a generator together. That is, in no way, balanced.
Thana was just the first perk that came to mind, but there are other perks that reduce the repair efficiency that would stack with this basekit change. The point was never how feasible getting 4 stacks of Thana is, the point was that a basekit action speed penalty debuff stacks with other debuffs.
If I were to flip this and suggest survivors get a buff to action speed if someone is tunneled out of the game, killers would be the first to denounce it as punishing them for playing efficiently.
Rewarding the killer for not tunneling by giving them extra BP or emblem score won't work since they don't care about that. They also aren't going to care about a basekit grim embrace because the payoff just isn't the same as eliminating someone and having permanent slowdown.
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Killer bots.
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they could re-introduce the rift to normal matches in some sense:
with the rifts active, they can be used to enter into a smaller space then emerage at a different rift of your choosing at a different position on the map. Since survivors could enter the rift faster than killers, this would give them a chance to enter, and exit, effectively teleporting to a different position on the map.
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Suicide on hooks and DC are mild signs of ``no one wants to play Survivor.''
The reason is because of the killer's unpleasant tactics such as tunneling and slugging
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In the current game state, we can already tunnel a survivor out and achieve a stronger version of this Thana you're describing. Complaining about the action speed penalty doesn't make sense when a stronger version of it is already in the game, which survivors don't complain about. When survivors complain about tunnelling, they're complaining about dying fast, being unable to play, and not having fun. They're not complaining about the action speed penalty afterwards that results from dying. This is based on comments I've read about tunnelling https://steamcommunity.com/app/381210/discussions/0/3499887039228967158/
Post edited by adsads123123123123 on0 -
At this point I think tunneling is a problem we simply have to live with.
Devs have already done things to mitigate this problem like Borrowed Time basekit, the significant buff to Off the Record, and some killer perks which try to promote not tunneling like Pain Resonance and Grim Embrace.
In my opinion if the devs do more things to adress the problem it would affect the balance, mostly considering that sometimes the tunneling is necessary, for example, only two gens remaining and the four survivors still alive or the endgame.
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Ah, of course. Making one portion of the player-base extinct and replacing them with bots seems like such a great way for Behaviour to make money.
No, it's a significant sign of entitlement. Something doesn't immediately go their way, die on hook and go next. They want to play, they just don't want any kind of challenge. If they didn't want to play, they wouldn't keep re-queuing.
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Just to illustrate: You're suggesting a 25% action speed penalty, which is pretty heavy, and... It's still not enough.
As @Kaitsja mentions, in the general gameplay loop, not all survivors can be on gens. Even if you have only one survivor in chase and the others all on gens, going from 4 to 3 survivors would effectively be going from 3 to 2 survivors on gens, max. That's a 33% cut for 3 hooks, as opposed to a 25% cut for 4 hooks. So the reward is greater, and the cost is lower.
Even with that much of an action speed penalty, tunnelling would still be stronger.
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https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3592820/#Comment_3592820
I think it's silly to think that nothing should be implemented just because it won't stop tunnelling completely. That's like saying they should remove base kit borrowed time because people are still tunnelling.
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Suicides on hook and DCs are a sign of players being babies who need to find something better to do with their time. The vast majority of suicides and DCs happen because you found a survivor at the beginning of the game. That's all it takes in most cases. It happens with every killer no matter how you play. People quit as soon as one thing doesn't go how they want it to.
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I’ve seen Survivors suicide on hook because their team opted to rush gens over saving them.
I guess this is the Killer’s fault too?
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That's not what I'm trying to say.
I'm trying to point out that trying to use incentives to lure killers away from tunnelling is practically impossible without also utterly demolishing game balance. Tunnelling is simply overpowered, so making non-tunnelling the more appealing option would require buffing killers to such a point that survivors have almost no chance of winning.
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Devs need to find a way to make tunneling way less rewarding, and going for different survivors more rewarding. Such as maybe gaining some kind of boost for not hooking the same survivor twice, and maybe I guess they could make it so if a killer hooks the same survivor twice, other survivors gain a boost in completing gens faster.
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I don't think tunnelling is overpowered. It's more like the bare minimum you need to do to compete with strong teams. They also could nerf tunnelling more so that a weaker reward is required to be comparable.
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Alot of the problem seems to be buffs and even nerfs to stats may tend to mess with perks and mechanics maybe consider bringing back the original hatch game. 1 more generator completion than survivors on the field and a purple or better key. It makes the killer focus on scanning for generators and other survivors forcing them to care about the rest of the game. If they don't they risk some1 having a key or finding a key (also bringing back usefulness to searching boxes and perks for such things) also giving survivors motivation to start expanding and using those perks to. Spice the game back up. : )
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People aren't complaining about the reduction in efficiency after someone's been tunneled out because that reduction in efficiency would happen even if the killer didn't tunnel.
But what you're suggesting is that for 1 hook per survivor, the survivors get a 25% debuff to action speed.
Now, let's assume the killer is a standard M1 killer running Gift of Pain and Dying Light. 3 Stacks of Dying Light is 9%. Gift of Pain is 16%. Combined with your idea of 25% for 4 unique hooks, that's a 57.33% penalty or 0.57 charges per second, assuming my math is correct. That's now 157 seconds to complete a generator solo.
To make it clear, the point isn't how feasible this is. The point is that there is no simple fix to tunneling that doesn't remove killer agency, provides sufficient incentive or reward to not tunnel, and is also balanced.
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The longer they tunnel someone fresh off hook the more their vision goes black and once the survivor is a safe distance it comes back.
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Those are terrible perks no one runs. You keep giving me these examples but I already told you that when you tunnel someone out, there is at minimum a 33% reduction in gen speeds, so if someone tunneled and ran the perks you mentioned, it would be a 65% reduction in gen speeds. Yet no one is doing this or complaining about it.
Another solution could be that when you hook 4 different survivors and 4 survivors are alive, a random completed gen is sabotaged undoing all its progress and all generators are blocked for 30 seconds. There are 5 gens. A 25% increase in gen times would be equivalent to 1.25 gens. Note that killing a survivor also reduces action speed.
Also, even if the solution doesn't stop tunnelling completely, I think it's silly to think that nothing should be implemented. That's like saying they should remove base kit borrowed time because people are still tunnelling.
Post edited by adsads123123123123 on0 -
Tunneling is The Nature of The Beast, there is no way to address tuneeling with the current state the game is in. Everytime BHVR tries to address tunneling it gets worse mainly because of core game issues such as gen times, map/killer/perk designs, unnessesary buffs/nerfs to perk etc.
The slowest the gens ever were was back when we had Ruin 1.0 (Red Skill Checks), and killers only tunneled toxic/annoying/attention seeking survivors. But than we entered "The Era of Casuals" because people were gen tapping because apparently red skill checks were too hard to hit even though they were the reason why I got good at skill checks in general.
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Again, you are missing the point. What you are suggesting is not balanced. How much clearer do I need to be?
When someone is tunneled out, it results in the match slowing down because there are less survivors on gens, reducing their efficiency without actually affecting how long it takes to complete a generator.
When someone is tunneled out, it still takes 90 seconds to complete a generator solo. That doesn't change. What changes is the amount of people that can be working on gens. So, no, it doesn't result in a 33% reduction in gen speeds.
Your suggestion is to increase gen times via a debuff. Your second suggestion is extremely unbalanced. A basekit effect for not tunneling that undoes a completed generator, resetting it to zero and blocks all generators for 30 seconds. For either of your suggestions to be balanced, survivors would need something equally strong for not genrushing and even that would destroy the overall balance of the game.
Tunneling needs to be addressed, sure, but it isn't worth destroying the game's balance to do so.
As for basekit BT, that was implemented to address an entirely different issue which was that survivors would get farmed off-hook by their teammates who would go for unsafe rescues without running BT. It was incredibly frustrating to have no agency in the matter. You would get unhooked, immediately get downed again, and put back on the hook.
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I like a good chase, while the one God guy in solo que is far more interesting to chase then the potatoes of solo que
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At this point we can state that the hook system is a failure. Other games similar to DBD may not have succeeded, but they have deal with this situation better giving the survivors a single chance.
My solution is simple, make the survivors endure more hits (let's say 4 hits), limiting the amount they can heal (let's say 3 out of those 4). But when they are hooked they die and are out of the game. No more camping, no more tunneling... if you are not able to win the chase, you die. A flashlight save or taking a hit to prevent a hook will become more impactful and fun. And every hit the killer makes will feel more productive, since you can't fully heal back.
Many perks and powers would need major changes, but this is the only solution. The current system is a fight against the clock, if the survivors have three chances the killer has no reason to not kill one asap.
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In essence, you're arguing that tunnelling in its current form is unbalanced. I don't think it is unbalanced when most killers are doing it and kill rates are near their target of 60%. I've provided solutions that are comparable to tunnelling someone out. Whether tunnelling is balanced is another discussion, which I don't care enough to argue about.
As for basekit BT, that was implemented to address an entirely different issue which was that survivors would get farmed off-hook by their teammates who would go for unsafe rescues without running BT. It was incredibly frustrating to have no agency in the matter. You would get unhooked, immediately get downed again, and put back on the hook.
Nope. In the developer update where they introduced base kit Borrowed Time, they specifically said it was implemented to address camping and tunnelling.
There's also no reason to stop at removing base kit Borrowed Time. Since tunnelling is still happening, we should just remove every anti-tunnel perk, e.g. OTR and DS.
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Don't put words in my mouth. I'm not arguing that tunneling is unbalanced. It's unfun, period. You are arguing that your suggestions are fine because tunneling is stronger. Fixing tunneling by giving the killer a reward for not tunneling that is equal to tunneling someone out just creates a new problem. Your suggestions are unbalanced. Tunneling is not. See the difference?
Being farmed off hook by a teammate was what is known as survivor-induced tunneling. It's still tunneling, but the reason for it was a teammate not running BT and going for unsafe rescues. It's easier to not call it tunneling because the killer is expected to capitalise on survivor mistakes, and not doing so would be tantamount to throwing.
It really doesn't matter what they put in the developer update. Those of us who were around before basekit BT know that being farmed by teammates was one of the top complaints, and basekit BT was implemented as a result of that.
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The only thing that would solve "tunneling" is a respawn ticket pool similar to what the game 'Depth' had. Were that the case, it wouldn't matter how many times the killer went after the same person, because nobody would be eliminated from the match until the ticket pool is empty and by the time the pool became empty, the gens would be long done or the survivors are outplayed by the killer.
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"Don't put words in my mouth. I'm not arguing that tunneling is unbalanced. It's unfun, period. You are arguing that your suggestions are fine because tunneling is stronger. Fixing tunneling by giving the killer a reward for not tunneling that is equal to tunneling someone out just creates a new problem. Your suggestions are unbalanced. Tunneling is not. See the difference?"
No, I don't. If tunnelling is balanced, how is an effect weaker than tunnelling unbalanced?
"Being farmed off hook by a teammate was what is known as survivor-induced tunneling. It's still tunneling, but the reason for it was a teammate not running BT and going for unsafe rescues. It's easier to not call it tunneling because the killer is expected to capitalise on survivor mistakes, and not doing so would be tantamount to throwing."
It really doesn't matter what they put in the developer update. Those of us who were around before basekit BT know that being farmed by teammates was one of the top complaints, and basekit BT was implemented as a result of that."
Tunnelling is going for the same survivor multiple times to kill them fast. You can call it hook farming or w/e but it still falls within the definition of tunnelling.
Back then, most survivors had DS and there was still a high risk of BT. Going for the unhooked survivor was risky. If they did it, they were knowingly tunnelling.
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Tunneling is balanced, but unfun. It comes down to a matter of skill. At an intermediate skill level, you're likely to lose at least 3 gens by time you get your first kill if you're tunneling. It's high-risk, high-reward. Pick the wrong survivor to tunnel, and you're walking away with a 1k at best.
What you're proposing is zero risk, maximum reward. For just four unique hooks, survivors end up with a 25% debuff to action speed. There's no risk here.
Then there's your second suggestion, which is to undo all the progress invested into a completed generator and then block all generators for 30 seconds. Where's the risk? There is none. There's only maximum reward. Even with all of that, you can still choose to tunnel.
I don't think you're understanding just how terrible those suggestions are. You have zero consideration for the other side and only think about how best to incentivise killers to not tunnel. There is no simple solution. The solution to tunneling needs to be something that is fair for both sides. There needs to be appropriate counterplay, and it can't be too strong. That's what it means for something to be balanced.
When someone is tunneled out, the action speed doesn't change. What changes is the number of people that can be on generators at any given time. With four people, the most that can realistically be on generators is three. Minus one survivor, now it's two. Minus one, now it's one. I cannot make it any easier to understand than that.
Tunneling is intentionally going for the same survivor repeatedly. While hook farming technically fit the definition of tunneling, people didn't call it out as tunneling because it's not the killer's fault you had dumb teammates. DS was common, sure, but people liked to save their DS for the endgame. BT was also common, but given that this was before SBMM was implemented, you could have several games where you had dumb teammates.
If you still don't get it by this point, I'll sum it up for you. Tunneling = Balanced, but unfun. Your suggestions = Unbalanced, unfun, overpowered.
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So you're saying you won't lose 3 gens by the time you hook 4 unique survivors against a good team? So wrong. Otz tested Grim Embrace on every killer and on average it activated with 0-2 gens left. In most of the games where it activated earlier, he already won and Grim Embrace didn't influence the outcome significantly. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUWTCtrvfb8.
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Otz is high MMR. The average player isn't high MMR. At high MMR, survivors rarely make mistakes which is why tunneling is necessary. The average player isn't high MMR and makes plenty of mistakes.
I never stated that you wouldn't lose 3 gens by time you get four unique hooks against a good a team. Against a "good team", you're likely to lose all your gens if you don't tunnel, but unless you're at high mmr (which you won't be as a casual player) you're about as likely to go against a "good team" as the casual survivor is to go against a god nurse. While it does happen, it doesn't happen often enough to really matter.
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I think the video is representative of how long it would take to activate Grim Embrace. Otz is high mmr but it doesn't mean he will face high mmr opponents. Due to the mmr soft cap and fact that matchmaking is very lax, the odds of facing a strong team is 10-20%. Most matches as a high mmr player are against mediocre players. Otz actually has a very large advantage due to the lax matchmaking since it allows him to face far less skilled opponents.
Going for the no tunnel route also has risks:
- you might get 4 hooks too late. The difference with my suggestion is that it requires enough remaining gens to get value from it whereas with tunnelling, killing a survivor gives value at all stages of the game.
- you might never achieve 4 unique hooks. If Grim Embrace becomes base kit, the survivors 100% know about the effect, so it's possible for the last survivor to hide and play very safe to avoid activating the effect.
- you might accidentally tunnel and fail the activation conditions.
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It's not fun to be tunneled just as it's not fun to be gen rushed. Both sides are doing their primary objective, regardless of whether or not it's "unfair".
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I think survivors should try and run and escape from the killer kinda like the game demands. Rather than look to BHVR to attenuate the game so they don't have to run and escape from the killer.
I mean you have all the tools you need to escape from a "tunneling" killer.
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Remove the notification killer receives when someone is unhooked.
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Just pointing out that, beside the fact it's a valid strategy, it's also something some survivors like.
When offered the choice between playing QTE and playing something exciting, some choose the challenge and the excitement.
Some aren't here for the snooze fest.
Shocking, I know.
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