The Trickster Feedback
Comments
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I think this rework missed the mark - he feels worse to play and isn't at all stronger (and potentially might even be weaker than he was prior)
3 knives/sec with 8 knives to take a health state (so 2.66s to injure with pinpoint accuracy, about in the middle of a Huntress pull-up without Addons) feels awful, and in many cases it's objectively better to just play the tile and basic them like an M1 killer. The lack of speed-up also makes the knives feel totally unrewarding to use.
Main Event on PTB was too oppressive, but it's new iteration on live feels like a complete non-addition to his kit. The idea that you can get an injure and then clean up with a Main Event I like, but it just doesn't feel powerful enough to justify being its own state of commitment. Maybe buffing it but also making it less often would help lean it back into what it's supposed to feel like - *a Main Event*.
As for the lack of recoil and 115, those are fine. Thanks for reading, and I hope you can make good use of these thoughts!
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After playing several games with Trickster in the new patch, I can safely give some feedback. There are things that I love about the rework and things that I do not like about the rework.
Let's start with the positives.
First off, please keep the 115% movement speed for Trickster as he really needs it for when he is in tall tiles/loops where he cannot use his power effectively (or at all for that matter). That was one of the two issues I had with Trickster before his changes.
Second, while this didn't greatly effect me as a PC player, I'm glad that you removed recoil as it will make him accessible to controller players.
Third, the other issue that I had with Trickster before is now fixed in that his Main Event comes online much more frequently. I don't even mind reducing how long Main Event is active since that can be modified with add-ons.
So those are what I really like about the Trickster rework.
Onto the negatives.
The biggest change that I noticed and disliked was the reduced fire rate. I don't even care if the Laceration Meter now takes 8 blades to injure a survivor and decays much faster than before. I think it is good since it gives survivors more of a chance to break line of sight to avoid Trickster's wrath.
However, the current fire rate makes it really slow to quickly injure a survivor. 3 blades per second and 8 to injure means it takes almost 3 seconds to fully damage a survivor. And that is if you manage to hit all of your blades and, let's be honest, that doesn't happen a lot of the time unless you are just cracked at the game.
Also, why is Main Event nearly the same fire rate as his current throw rate? Apparently there has been talk that this is not intentional and that it might get patched in the near future, but I never saw anywhere in the 7.4.0 patch notes that they would change the fire rate in Main Event as well. If we are keeping the three blades per second in his normal state, his Main Event NEEDS to be faster. If the goal of Main Event is to make a MAJOR threat to survivors, then quite frankly, it is not good right now. Right now, it feels super lackluster with the current fire rate that it has. I'm hoping that it is a bug and it will be fixed soon.
If you guys are taking the route of keeping Trickster at three blades per second in his normal state, then please buff Main Event.
So, depending on the goal of what you want to do with Trickster you could either
a.) Increase his fire rate to four blades per second (therefore taking only 2 seconds per health state) and reduce the effectiveness of Main Event as to not make him super oppressive.
OR
b.) Keep his current fire rate in his normal state, but make Main Event fire rate much faster than what it is currently.
And yeah, that's about it. Some hits and misses with Trickster but I think most of the issues that come with his changes can just be some number tweaks. I think the core of what he has right now is solid, but it does need a little bit more work.
I do want to say thank you for attempting to make Trickster a better killer to play as and against. He is my favorite killer in the game and any attempt to make him a healthier addition to the game is always welcome.
Cheers!
Post edited by Capa on5 -
The slower Throw Rate combined reduced Decay pretty much ruined the rework for me.
The movement speed was good, but his power feels weaker than before, main event is basically useless.
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The funny and sad thing is I think Plague already serves the 'machinegun ranged attack' niche better than Trickster, with far better macro benefits on top of it. Green puke 'damages' the Survivor by filling an infection meter, has numerous projectiles to hit with, and instead of decaying over time it builds up over time. On top of all of that you can spread the pain with no effort on your part with infected gens (also causing immense soloq slowdown since people refuse to touch infected gens), no ammo count, less slowdown (4.4 held puke), and probably the most busted part, no injury speedboost with Plague. Then, on top of all of that, you can get Red puke and have the first 'machinegun bullet' from a spray cause an injury/down.
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Why didn't you just make him 115% and remove recoil...
I hope Freddy rework will be handled better than this.
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Hi! I don't have any specific opinions on the changes but I reported a bug with both the Waiting For You Watch and Lucky Blade add-ons
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What is the bug?
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Freddy-Rework? Isnt he The Forgotten Killer, that one dude no one knows he exist at BHVR? 😅
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I haven't tested the addons, mostly just base trickster.
I like the 115, recoil removal and removal of slowdown when throwing blades, those changes feel good.
I think it's fine that you need 8 blades to down, but the new throw rate of 3 blades per second (bps) is too slow and feels weak. But 4 bps is too fast. I'd say a good middle ground is giving him his old ramp-up back, starting at 3bps and going up to 4bps. No change to knives needed to injure, that can stay as 8.
Main Event only being 4 blades per second also feels quite weak considering you're locked in throw mode, and it has a startup and ending animation. At the same time, getting Main Event after 8 blades feels way too early. So now it's this somewhat useless ability you constantly have ready. I'd like it more if it was more powerful, but took longer to charge.
Here's what I'd change:
- Throw rate improved to 3bps ramping up to 4bps, like before the rework
- Main Event throw rate improved to 5bps
- Blades required to access Main Event increased to 12
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hat if you made it so Trickster didn't injure with his knives, but instead built up enough knives to be the equivalent to two health states and insta-downed with his power instead?
That's way stronger and way more annoying to play against. Also harder to balance.
You realize survivors won't get speed boost, right? That's kinda Plague on steroids.
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I'll be honest here... I think the ball was dropped on this one. The recoil removal feels great, but everything else... at this point just give trickster 5 knives and make them do one health state like huntress. You get little to no value out of the knives at most loops and the decay rate means that you are constantly losing pressure. The only time I got injures/downs using the knives was when the survivor was in animation lock. Personally, you should just revert the main event changes and give trickster back his faster throwing rate. Main event isn't important enough for this slow style of gameplay. I thought you wanted trickster to keep up his fast paced gameplay?
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You have two choices.
- Revert to version 7.3.3.
- Revert to PTB.
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There are 2 options, the first is to make the knife throwing speed faster and give him a few more knives or leave it as it is now but reduce the number of knives needed to wound by 6 and giving him 12 seconds before his knives start to fire. lower
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Also his Fizz Spin Soda and Ji Woon Autograph add-ons are horrible. No one cares about "combos" and most will already max the combo anyway without the need of the add-ons.
Change it so we have an increased window to use Main Event before it expires.
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As a Trickster main since day 1 I will say right off the bat he feels much better to play as.
The 4.6 m/s feels great. If you’re in a rock loop or high wall, or an indoor map like Lery’s, being able to keep up with survivors like a normal killer is just a great fall back.
Not having recoil on console makes all the difference, it’s still sometimes difficult due to the bumper sensitivity but when at medium high loops and hitting the right height and consistently getting hits was not possible before but now it is thanks to the consistent accuracy. It also allows for MUCH farther away hits as long as you get the timing right since now you can count on your throws going where you aim them at and not getting thrown off even more due to the recoil.
the static 3 blades per second does feel sluggish, I wish there was a compromise at 3.5 blades per second from the PTB but it’s alright. Although it feels like if you throw blades for a long time, (like 15+) it feels like his throw rate slows, or that may just be my brain.
Having main event basically every chase makes the 8 blade laceration requirement while not having received additional base count blades almost feels no different. This might also be due to the A good balance, maybe too good, I almost feel the need to not reload all the time anymore because I look at my remaining blade count and feel confident I can reach main event again in the next chase before running out of my remaining blades. I feel the slower main event throw speed is fair compensation for the many repeated uses of it.
the pocket watch add on to me almost feels broken. As long as you hit 2-3 knives every second or so you basically have infinite main event as long as you have survivors to keep hitting, and with the throw speed of main event it’s easy to land 2-3 blades in a row. I’ve burned through 3 plus health states on survivors and still have nearly full main event because of the consistent hits and additional time added due to the add on. I think those add ons could be reduced to .3 and .2 second’s additional. But at the same time it’s rewarding players for accurate throws but still.
Overall, I say as a console player much of a step up thanks to the removal of the random recoil and 4.6 m/s. Having main event so much more is awesome but somethings like the pocket watch feel too strong, as well as he can be quite unrelenting even if survivors have cover and loops against him due to his consistent main event giving him so many more blades per chase. Would like to see some sort of throw speed increase up to 3.5 instead of just 3 blades per second. But as a Trickster main, I am very happy.
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raise bullet to kill but reduce fire rate this patch made trickster weaker than before buff more slow to kill, more bullet to kill player always feels lack of bullet
main event is nothing meaning in game. we can call this skill 'thrown entity's knife to save my knife' past main event is quite strong skill but skill has many penalty. main event's only strength is strong fire power!
but, now hmm.... dbd dev buff skill cycle to more frequently and nerf duration....... are you serious? you nerf duration. and duration is close relation with fire power.. so. dev nerf main event's only strength. fire power is the most important thing of main event..! low fire power main event? not any worth.. yes, really really nothing
4.6 movement is meaningless buff. 4.6 movement can,t affect anything in trickster ability using. ability speed same slow, ability mounting is same slow, but btk is raised, fire rate is decreased, laceration duration nerf
every nerf thing affect huge huge huge! but buff thing is not effecitve.
i think this patch is failed. trickster being none ability 4.6 killer. he lost uniqueness, attractiveness, performance concept. if he come stronger, we will happy.. but imagine is just imagine. In cruel reality, trickster not only lost his concept but also be weaker.
plz rollback and re-buff
-increase movement speed in mounting ability knife
-increase ability mounting speed
-increase possessed knife number
-increase fire rate and deleate recoil
thank to read and please rollback, re buff! now trickster is not trickster
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PTB was alright imo, ppl was over reacting too early. Some tweaks were good like 8 blades for main event, maybe even more if it go back to good old main event, and fizz soda and Iri disk combo. But everything else, was good. Trickster was performing way better, but ppl was thinking way better= OP, which is not. On Reddit you can see console are liking the change due to recoil, but pc fell it like a 100%nerf.
I think they should go back to PTB version but also:
- Keep 8 blades for main event, or even 10 idk. But bring it back to old main event
- Keep the fizz cola change to avoid the combo, but bring back Old Iri add-ons (BOTH OF THEM)
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Throw late feels so sluggish right now... i was really excited about throw rate buff because it feeled so great on the ptb.
I think throw rate nerf should be reverted, trickster simply feels worst after the update.
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As it turns out, this new trickster is stronger without a knife. His abilities have been nerfed to such a level that I can no longer understand why he carries a knife.
He became just an incompetent killer.
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i think old trickster is stronger and more attractive killer..
please rollback and rebuff in 4.4
do not change movement.. but plz buff ability performance
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The only thing that feels bad about the new Trickster is the reduced fire rate. Increase the normal rate to 4 and Main Event to 5. Other than that, Trickster will feel much better to play.
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It feels awful. The slow throw rate is terrible. I liked the ramp up in speed as you throw as it encourages you to spam out knives which is fun. You have stripped the fun elements from the killer and compensated it with a basic movement speed increase (as if trickster players are going for M1s??) and a faster to obtain main event. It being quicker to use main event doesn't even matter since you've also made that useless since he throws at the same speed as usual and when it ends there is a long recovery, so unless i happen to have just ran out of knives and earned a main event around the same time there's no point in using it. So you decided to make him less fun AND less powerful when he was already not particularly strong against experienced survivors. Terrible update.
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the 4.6 ms is in my opinion problematic. Ranged killers are balanced around the fact that they can injure survivors from a distance, so having a ranged killer with 4.6 ms makes trickster really unfun to play against. On short wall loops, he still just downs you with blades with little to no counterplay and on the previously somewhat safe high wall loops he just chases like a normal m1 killer to force a quick pallet drop and hit the survivor with blades while they're moving to the next tile.
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I think artists and nurses are stronger.
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If it makes you feel better, he's not fun to play as now either.
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I've been playing Trickster for quite some time and I was loving it, got him to P100 because of how fun he was to play, so I wanted to see how Trickster felt after the changes. Sadly the magic just isn't quite there anymore, and I have a few concerns.
- For one, the new throw rate feels awful paired with having to hit survivors 8 times. I feel that if the throw rate was set back to 4 blades a second it'd be fine. The throw rate for Main event also feels slower than it should be.
- I feel he doesn't need 4.6 m/s, he was just fine with 4.4 m/s, I feel.
- His Main Event Combo should have an indicator so you can know exactly how much you're getting for your next Main Event.
There's also a few good things I really like, though!
- No recoil!
- Main Event only being 8 blades
- Main Event having a system that rewards you for landing good shots consistently
- The Iridescent Photocard being changed to something like the PTB Death Throes, where if you miss a knife you lose all of the benefits, but if you land consistent knives you build up that benefit.
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I appreciate that you guys had a go at making him less frustrating to play against, but the experience is still very much the same. If he finds you in an area without tall cover, you're going down. The lack of counterplay that made him obnoxious to play against is still there.
I don't think he should be able to stack haste with the use of an add-on. Even if it's an iri. He's now 115 with the added bonus of being able to down survivors from range and over loops (many of which have zero counterplay for the survivor). Building more haste on top of that is overkill.
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Post edited by XenRedspike on5
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You've missed a trick (😁) by not making his main event do something fun like bouncy knives as basekit, as it would make it make it mean something. You'd still need to fix his throw speed and laceration timer though.
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I think 115 Trickster may just not be a feasible idea. It made him much stronger but required nerfs in many other areas of his power in order to balance that strength, to the point where he doesn’t feel good to play anymore.
I was hoping some nerfs from the PTB (which he got) would put him in a good state since he was too strong on the PTB, but he just feels kind of sluggish now. Facing him is about as unfun as it was before and playing him feels overall worse, with the exception of the recoil removal (which was a good change). I don't think he is actually weak since he is a 115 killer with a ranged ability, he just feels bad to use because in order to give him that, so much had to be taken away from him to make him not overpowered, which makes me question whether making him 115 was actually a good idea or not. That's just my two cents.
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I'm gonna start off by saying that I feel like it's genuinely best to revert Trickster and rethink this entire rework. Because right now, he is not fun to play or play against.
Trickster, rn, just feels like a glorified M1 killer like many have said. As much as alot of people disagree, I think this can never be fixed if he is not reverted back to 110%. Balancing a range killer around 115% is so hard, unless there is an insane cooldown between getting out the bat after using blades.
Trickster is my second most used killer, and he was just loads more fun before the change. Was he better? Probably not, but I think most Trickster mains agree they're rather have fun that play him in his current, sluggish state. There is of course the huge issue with him being hard to loop on certain maps, but that should be resolved in a different way.
I personally enjoy the fact recoil is taken away, but I'm curious if he would be more fun to play and play against if his blade speed increase when throwing(instead of it always being 3 or 4 blades a second) would return, yet also add more and more recoil the faster you throw. It would reward playing him more patiently, but also allow people to have fun and use him as an SMG while it's less frustrating for the surv since more recoil means he'd be easier to dodge.
Also, the laceration meter decaying slower when you hit longer ranged blades is something I'd love to see.
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As someone who plays trickster primarily on console I appreciate the removal of recoil, and his upgraded movement speed has been helpful, but the bizarre change of increasing the laceration meter and reducing his fire-rate at the same time has made his power feel far more useless, and in all my testing on Xbox since the new update released I feel like my power has been useless and I've gotten most my damage in with basic attacks. Most loops have too much cover to pepper enough knives at the survivor in between corners effectively at this rate. It has put him back in the same clunky position as before but now for different reasons. He's close to being in a good spot, but the fire rate being reverted would help greatly for base and main event, requiring him to still hit the target 8 times, but giving him the opportunity to realistically do so
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The 115% feels great, there were some loops where he couldn't use his power at all but that's less of an issue now. The removal of recoil is good too.
As others have said though, the increased knife requirement, alongside his reduced throw rate, makes removing health states much slower.
I'd prefer reducing the laceration meter back to 6 (so that singular knives matter more, and chases take less knives so there's less pressure to reload), but increasing the throw rate instead would also make him feel better.
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He feels extremely bad to play, his throw rate should have remained at 4 per second
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He feels bad.
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is too weak.
Killers need to be profound, not mediocre.
3 knife/s、4.4 m/s、need 6 hit , 50% accuracy need 4s=12knife. if don't use main event it spend 24 knife(54.55% knifeload)
3 knife/s 、4.6m/s、need 8 hit , 50% accuracy need 5.3s=16knife.if don't use main event it spend 32 knife(72.73% knifeload)
4s survivor can move 16m , 5.3s can move 21.2m.
It is true that the 4.6m/s Trickster can activate the main event with 8 knife, but it is difficult get A combo level.
so the main event is 5.5~7s.
even get S combo , two survivor can Use obstacles to dodge , because killer hold the knife too long.
plague can injured survovir with infect, and vomit not an attack. survivor don't get the runboost.
so, why not the knife be it?
knife don't injured survivor it not an attack, the Laceration do and not give the run boost, just like plague.
that will be good. if not change other thing.
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So...
Bit of backstory. I loved release Trickster. He felt like a very interesting and fun hybrid killer who would do a mix of damage with his knives and bat. I actually really liked how unrelenting Trickster could be in comparison to Huntress or Slinger. I actually dropped him completely when his post launch changes happened because I didn't like how the changes pushed him far more towards knives and also made him worse in high wall loops.
I was actually very excited for these Trickster changes because it looked like he was returning to being more of a hybrid killer like he used to be.
He isn't. His M1 game is better than ever with the speed boost which I do honestly like. Love even. But you've made his knives even worse than they were on release. I thought that some of the people posting here were exaggerating that he was basically just an M1 killer now... but... yeah he kinda is.
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You somehow made this killer worse than he ever was.
4.6m speed feels good, but his throw rate and the 8 hits required to injure someone is so stupid. just go M1 at this point. you somehow made this killer worse to use. it's so easy to counter in high MMR matches. please revert his knives throw rate and make it requiring 6 hits to injure someone.
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The nerf from the PTB to live was needed, but a bit harsh. His throw rate is sluggish and I have 3 suggested changes to make him more viable and rewarding.
- The blades throw rate accelerates from 3-4 again
- Ji-Woon's Autograph and Fizz-Spin Soda are reverted to their previous effects
- Waiting For You Watch and Lucky Blade are each nerfed by 0.1 seconds per blade.
Additionally, if there are concerns about the power being used for camping/tunneling, the throw rate could be restricted to 3 blades per second when within 12 meters of a hooked survivor.
The combo functionality is also unnecessary and can just be kept as a score event as it somewhat defeats the purpose shortening the main event duration.
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I enjoyed playing as Trickster because of his knives. It was fun. But after the update it's not fun anymore, it's even horrible. He throws knives very slowly, and his main event does not give any advantage. For me now he is like an M1 killer, because it is easier not to bother with these knives. This update killed his whole vibe, he's like a retired idol now with that knife throwing speed.
Please rebuff him, or at least roll it back to how it was before this update.
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No matter how you look at it, this Trickster is the weakest ever.
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Well you killed him most likely feels boring to play and pain , i shoud suggest #RevertTrickster and just do maybe the doc says https://docs.google.com/document/d/1B3OeGX7G2z7QHvSBepa0RfFWU9fPAam7tLvmtRnZ-Us/edit
I mean being 4.6 is nice ,but not being able to use ur power cause the laceration is going so fast and the time you hit 5 knives and they do loop * boop * laceration is going down.
Main event Throw rate is so bad can't even punish survivors that are doing mistakes.The basic throw rate is bad as well and again can't punish survivors that doing specific actions. I would love you guys to make Trickster maybe more for accuracy instead of spamming knives. His current kit is boring, but the PTB was ok.
So increase basic throw rare and the main event throw rate am feeling like am playing with a handicap. Rework the Fizz-Spin- Soda and Autograph. Inscrease the laceration decaying 10 seconds is awful and can't even use my knives. Let's stop the Trickster M1 STBFL it's not funny. Most likely revert him 4.4 Trickster was almost perfect.
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Did you actually intend to weaken the Trickster from the beginning?
Even though the usage rate and kill rate are originally low.
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Worse lethality, worse main event, nerf of an addon that wasn't the problem (it was the unnecessary main event changes), the removal of 5 knifing, worse ammo economy.
I don't really understand why he was changed honestly, it feels like BHVR just made him worse overall and its a genuine shame.
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I don't even think removing recoil actually helps him, because with 8 blade 10 decay laceration (this was tried in the past and reverted, why is it being tried again?), he's just forced to machine gun blades rather than take his time and have that balance of tap, burst and spray firing.
I'd have kept recoil but made the pattern a standard learnable thing because a rapid fire killer in DBD needs a downside like that to balance out his extremely fast attack playstyle.
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Death Throes is now almost entirely useless also.
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Waiting For You Watch and Lucky Blade also seem to be bugged in a very weird way. They apply to a number thats the division of your charges required to get into main event, and the duration its lasts or 8/5, and then the duration increase per blade, or 0.7, is multiplied by 1.6.
8/5=1.6
0.7x1.6=1.12 seconds per knife hit added back on which is roughly 22.4% of 5 seconds
tldr: formula is main event charge/main event duration
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Whereas the way i believe it SHOULD work is 0.7/5 which is roughly 0.14 or 14% or so of your duration recharged.
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Final comment on this unless a dev or someone else wants or needs more information: I think the idea of death throes pre rework could honestly be made into a basekit function where you have a 1:1 or 1:2 ratio of blades hit in main event granting you some back after you leave main event.
I also do not believe the main event extension mechanic (hitting blades to get extra main event duration whether done during main event or outside of it) actually has a purpose since ME has such a slow throw rate, and this mechanic is also not communicated at all in game anywhere on the HUD or power description, only within patch notes.
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Please revert the changes. That's all.
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