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I have an idea how to decreas suicides on hook
I have an idea about killing yourself on hook solution. Most suicides happen early in the gamewhen they down very fast. What if you cannot use 4% in the first 2-3 minutes of the game. After 3 minutes, 1 attempt is given, after 4 -2 attempts and after 5 - 3 attempts (if you have Deliverance you can unhook yourself anytime). Or something like that, you can play around with the numbers. A survivor who quickly fell at the beginning of the match will not be able to kill himself
Another way: You cant unhook yourself if you're the first survivor on hook in a match until another survivor is downed
Comments
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that does sound like a solid solution however one problem, say if a killer manges to slug everyone and hooked them all less than 3 minutes in and none of them are able to have a chance to 4% off hook.
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Variations of this idea get proposed pretty regularly. Unfortunately, BHVR just thinks its an impossible fix. I have no idea why as I've never seen them give a reason why this would be a problem.
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Well, to be honest that sounds more like matchmaking would have to have failed spectacular again for such a lopsided match in the first three minutes.
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Or, you know, don't let people kill themselves on hook. Somehow, that's an unreasonable solution.
Give them a Rubik's cube or something if you're that worried about survivors getting bored on hook.
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Even after playing for over 5 years, I really don't understand why survivors suddenly give up on a match.I can't read the minds of those who would disconnect because they were attacked by the first killer when the game is going on, like Ghostface in Borgo or the trappers in Gideon, thinking that this is the first of three people to escape and they can get out of the game.
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It's one of those annoying problems, where a small section of people create this problem where the rest of us need to be restricted.
The ability to Kobe is something BHVR want to be in the game, and its importance is that there should always be a chance of escape, so that survivors keep trying, otherwise we don't have a game. Killing yourself on hook is also useful for giving hatch... so attempting self unhooks is a basic function available in the game, and placing limitations on it is clunky and awkward.
This solution would be a brute force method of putting a dent in the problem, but it is doing it by completely removing basic functionality from the player... while it would be effective, it's something that doesn't really make sense with our understanding of the game, and whatever timings you set, there is always the risk of an outlier where someone needs to kobe, but can't try. If you try to prevent that you risk the effect being too short to be effective for its intended purpose.
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its importance is that there should always be a chance of escape, so that survivors keep trying, otherwise we don't have a game
Exactly this.
The whole game only functions if the survivors have some hope of escaping, which is also why things like hatch exist. It's a reason to keep playing a lost game. If survivors lose hope of escape, they give up more.
If you really want survivors to stop giving up on hook they need and actual chance to play the match. Ironically, the biggest thing that could be done to combat giving up on hook is to reduce the effectiveness of tunneling. Most of these instances are people who realize that the first player down just doesn't get to play that match at all and it's time to go next.
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So if you remove the ability to maybe pull yourself off hook maybe once every ten games, people will lose all hope and quit the game entirely?
What about the 97.43% chance that if you're sitting there on the hook, one of your teammates is going to unhook you?
Letting people try and unhook themselves doesn't give them hope. It gives them a way to screw over their teammates in a way that they can't get punished for. After you do all the rounding, that's all it does.
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Or, we can start removing all the things which make people suicide on Hook. Yes, this is impossible. But they can start removing the things which are obvious reasons, e.g. Skull Merchant needs a proper Rework. You will have people who will suicide when they are first downed. This cannot be prevented.
But at least the most frustrating things can be solved at some point.
Regarding your idea - wont matter. If someone does not want to play, they wont play. They might just eat the DC-Penalty or will AFK for 5 minutes.
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How about this: You can't 4% in the first 6 minutes, but the number of dead, dying or hooked survivors decreases this by 1 minute per each. So if there are 4 slugs, at 2 minutes you can try for the hail mary, but if you're the only one on hook you gotta wait until 5 minutes before tapping out
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The fix is: make a better game
find out why survivors don't wanna play, and fix it
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People are different. The fix to appease one person isn't going to appease the next. If you look at each member of the killer cast, you will find survivors who can't stand playing against each of them.
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You didn't read my post at all.
Tunneling makes it so people don't get to actually play the game. If you're first hooked, you're very, very likely to be tunneled out, making a lot of players just decide to go next, because they were unlucky enough to be found first and don't actually get to play the game.
I'm addressing the root cause of giving up, which includes hook attempts. If you try to just remove the 4%, people who want to give up will go afk at the base of the hook and you've solved literally nothing.
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This is true, but it is quite clear that there are things which lead to more Hook Suicides or DCs than others.
E.g. Skull Merchant. E.g. Blights who now use all of their OP Add Ons.
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If people dont want to play then they will not play. This solution sounds good in theory, but people will then just afk after the unhook and leave it until the killer comes back to finish them off (which most killers to be fair will) it just simply cannot be fixed if people do not want to play.
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Most of this issue comes from high mobility killers using Lethal Pursuer and getting quick downs. The solution would be to add a downside to lethal which would prevent killer from using power for the duration of the initial aura reading at the start of the game. This would prevent blight, nurse and Wesker from instantly being on you within the first 5 or 6 seconds and getting a free hit.
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A genius thought: nerf killer.
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If people dont want to play then they will not play.This always gets brought up but there a couple of problems with it.
1: The game already has a built in penalty to discourage disconnects. It makes no sense to say 'if you leave the game X way, you get punished because it ruins the game for everyone else, but leave it Y way even though it still ruins the game, no punishment.' If the disconnect system works, either by discouraging disconnects or lessening the amount of times players who do it are in the game, there is no reason to believe that it won't work for hooks.
2: Based on my experience, I don't think its true that they won't play. Sure, sometimes they'll just AFK or go to get the killer, but lots of times when I see a survivor trying to hook suicide early get rescued, they go back to playing the game.
3: Even if BHVR is absolutely convinced that they need to allow an out system on the hook, they could just ban hook suicides early in the game but allow disconnects with no penalty and put a bot into its place.
This is an issue that massively impacts the game and they should at least try something. I could understand the difficulty before we had bots, but now that they are in it seems a relatively easy thing to address if they still want to allow an out for players without it impacting everyone else.
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Again all of this just boils down to, you cannot stop people from leaving. If you do punish a self sacrifice, then people will just afk (I have saved people trying to self sacrifice and they have just stood there). Because people who truly do not want to play that match are not suddenly going to continue after you stop their suicide attempt.
Making it so that you get punished or something, or you cannot self sacrifice early is an attempt at a solution, but people will then just wait and then let go on the hook.
My main point is the reason why BHVR have not done this is because ultimately there is no suggestion which prevents the problem entirely, only one which at most discourages it and you cannot account for context.
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Exactly, the point is that people will always find a way to disengage from the match that they don’t want to be a part of anymore.
If a mechanic is added to prevent players from killing themselves right away, then the obvious issue to follow would be how do we keep players from going afk? Should there be a system in place which would keep track of the amount of time that a given player spent being afk? And after x amount of time has been accumulated then a warning of an eventual ban would be given?
I would say that the tracker would start once the first crow is flying over the player’s character, unless you would like to be lenient and wait for the tracker to start once all the crows have spawned.
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At this point just take away the DC penalty, I'd rather have a bot teammate than no teammate at all.
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Feel like there are corner cases for this.
A simpler solution that would work all the time is : remove the skill checks, remove the perk-less self-unhooks. (Not 4% anymore)
That way, no hook suicide ever.
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Taking away choice is not a solution. If you don't want hook suicides then remove the hook mechanic entirely.
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My main point is the reason why BHVR have not done this is because ultimately there is no suggestion which prevents the problem entirely, only one which at most discourages it and you cannot account for context.Why is preventing the problem entirely relevant? That's a ridiculous standard. Disconnect penalties don't stop disconnects entirely, but that doesn't mean they don't have an effect. If something can help alleviate a problem, that's a good thing.
Yes, you can't literally make a player play a game if they absolutely don't want to. But you definitely can put in design elements to encourage playing or discourage leaving.
This isn't even getting into the proposed solutions to replace a survivor with a bot.
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Another post about this where dbd players vehemently defend a mechanic that pushes a negatively self perpetuating cycle. Just can't see past their own selfishness, no other community would think it's ok.
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For the last time you are just wrong "Regarding your idea - wont matter. If someone does not want to play, they wont play. They might just eat the DC-Penalty or will AFK for 5 minutes."
There are systems you can put in place that don't allow that behavior, you can argue it all you want but that is just fact. Many other games have those systems and all of those aspects can be implemented into dbd just the same, the genre/type of game dbd is changes nothing.
Even if they don't stop people from trolling until they get hooked 3 times in a row the simple act of removing the suicide option deters people from wasting their own time doing essentially nothing. They could just play it out and lose the same amount of time in their own minds.
You delete suicides and the overall trolling rate goes down by default.
Majority of suicides I see from the survivor pov is unwarranted and throwing a game that is survivor favored 65/35 as it stands in the moment they first attempt.
As always I think tunneling and camping should be dealt with properly but that won't do as much as you think it will.
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You cant remove the dc penalty as it'd make killers possible to ragequit too, resulting in a very small chance for survivors to ever finish a game by escaping. If killers are anything like survivors, they'd simply rage the moment the gates are powered, legally.
It'd break the game.
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I am just thinking though, how would a bot work? Say a guy attempts on hook and then lets go, would the bot just spawn on hook and have their hook timer reset?
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One person I spoke with recently made the simplest solution which was to remove unhooking and skill checks entirely, with the exception of Deliverence and the Face-Camp Unhook mechanic.
The problem is that people will still go AFK or run to a Killer to be re-hooked. However, that way it will be easier to tell if someone is trying to ruin it for others, as well as simplify what to do. As a Killer, I'd just slug 'em and let them bleed of they try to ruin it for the other team.
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Remove the option to unhook yourself without perks and instead give an option to give yourself some sort of other buff voluntarily either on your first or second hook stage. All you're trying to do when you unhook is either suicide, self unhook when the game is practically lost or abuse luck mechanic.
tl;dr - Replace self unhook with a mechanic that can be activated that helps teammates save you.
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Disable hook escapes (maybe entire game, maybe first two hooks, maybe first 3 minutes), give the player an option on hook to leave the game either with a reduced or zero penalty, replace with bot.
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You can remove the penalty only for survivors then. While you might say this is unfair for killers, remember that a surv dc'ing does not end the trial, esp. when there's a bot to replace them.
Killer dc'ing stops the game for every player involved, and we have no killer bots (yet), so that type of dc is more "severe" by nature. If we ever have a killer bot replacing the killer player, than we can remove the dc penalty for killer play as well.
But who wants to play the rest of the game against a bot, right? Well, I guess the game needs some vote system then. So when both survivor team (majority vote, bots always vote yes) and killer agree to cancel the rest of the game, it is done so. Players keep their BP earned and progress up to this point.
Such a vote feature would not have to be tied to killer bots, it could be added right away. Might also make sense to have a kick for cheater players.
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Why so complicated?
Just remove the self unhook penalty on failed attempts alltogether, so you cannot speed up the sacrifice process anymore. Reduce the self unhook chance to compensate (something like 0.1%, to lazy to calculate it), so its roughly the same as now, and that's it.
So players can attempt to self unhook the whole first phase, gives them something to do, at least. Maybe even give them some survivor points for failed attempts.
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Reduce the self unhook chance to compensate (something like 0.1%, to lazy to calculate it),I was curious about the math. If I understand DbD's numbers the roughly necessary equivalent would be 0.272% (so 0.3%) chance to have the same likelihood of success if that was allowed.
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or we could just delete 4%.
it's such a cheesy and cheap mechanic
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People will just afk at the base of the hook, or even chase the killer. And you lose things like altruistically giving up on hook to allow your last standing teammate a chance at hatch.
The hilarious thing to me is that reducing tunneling would also cut down on giving up. Whenever tunneling is mentioned, the general sentiment is 'you can't punish killers, you have to incentivize them to tunnel less'. Then we get to something like this and the sentiment is 'oh it's survivors? Punish and perma ban them until it stops'.
Entity forbid that the meta gameplay actually be fun and people get to play the game. If you've designed a game where one team is explicitly designed to lose, and losing also gives a ######### gameplay experience, then I'm sorry but the gameplay is the only thing to look at here and the design sucks.
And for the record, that statement about wanting fun gameplay despite a crappy meta experience applies to both killers and survivors. The designed to lose part is the only thing that applies to only survivors.
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It is a good idea on paper...but forcing survivors to continue in a game they clearly want out of could possibly be far worse. If they don't simply afk at the hook, they will simply find the killer and give them free hooks till they die. Or...what I highly expect to happen....they will become quite petty and make the game horrible for the other survivors. They could go around and throw down every pallet on the map, fail skill checks on purpose and destroy a gens progress, lead the killer to wherever another survivor is, etc. Stopping someone from leaving the game early will just increase the toxicity. The only way to solve this is to find either find out why survivors mainly quit to begin with, and find a way to fix it...or come up with a way to encourage survivors to keep playing despite having a bad start. (No idea how to do that.)
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Did you read my post, they could delete tunneling off the face of the earth and it wouldn't bother me a bit. I literally don't remember the last time I tunneled someone. I'm coming up on my two year anniversary of not kicking gens in a month. I haven't face camped since I played doctor 2 and a half years ago.
Just because I want hook suicides to go away, doesn't mean I'm so killer sided person. That 4% is cool when it happens don't get me wrong but it doesn't warrant leaving a free way to leave the game in for only survivors especially.
Like I said, the simple act of removing the ability the leave the game via self unhook will decrease people wasting their own time not playing the game. If a survivor walks up to me when I'm playing killer in a game I deem winnable for them, they are staying on the ground. If they want out eat the dc penalty.
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AFKing multiple games will get you reported.
Also at some point the person just needs to realize they don't want to play DBD and just stop queueing up.
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rather then making people stop suiciding on hook, rather adress the reason they are jumping. they arent new, they are jumping cause it is a match they dont wanna play. usually caused by a killer tunnelling at 5 gens straight up and just proxycamping the hook at 5 metres to avoid the mechanic. Who wants to play that #########? cause you already know its not gonna be a fun match, its literal trade simulator. So people kill themselves on hook to not waste more time in a match that has that playstyle. And anyone that says tunnelling doesnt exist, never played survivor regularly either. They just a killer main seeing their main playstyle getting attacked.
And jumping off the hook, is the one real thing survivors have against this kind of playstyle. Just get out and find a more decent killer. that wants to have fun chases. And is not playing afk simulator at the hook. I encourage jumping, as a survivor main. I hope everyone does against tunnelling killers. Enjoy!
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I guess that could in theory work. I just think the devs understandably do not want to just take away the ability to attempt on hook.
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I 100% agree with that, people go afk, or give up for the most insane reasons. The problem is people will still queue.
To answer your first point, then people will just run at the killer then instead.
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I sniped someone as slinger at the start of the match and they gave up on hook, should remove slingers capability to snipe, I tagged someone early as singularity and down them because they dropped a pallet on me while overclocked, they gave up on hook, should remove singularitys overclock, I teleported to someone early and downed them as dredge,they gave up on hook, should limit dredges teleport across map, downed someone early as ghostface early, they gave up on hook, ghostface expose should be removed. And so on with the 34 killers until we make a better game.
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aren't they doing you a favour?
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I actually like this
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It's not so much that it's impossible to do something like this, but rather that this wouldn't fix the problem, just shift it. If someone has decided that they absolutely do not care to continue the match, there is nothing we can do to change that. No amount of penalties or preventative measures will suddenly make them want to keep playing. Even if we prevent them from trying to unhook themselves, nothing stops them from then running directly to the Killer to get downed and rehooked as quickly as possible, or from whipping out their phone and watching some videos as they wait for the match to finish. Either way, the end result is the same. You've still got a teammate who isn't doing anything, only now the other Survivors might accidentally waste time saving them and the Killer has an easy way to activate whatever hook-based perks they may be running.
In reality, people letting themselves die on the hook is not the problem, it's a symptom of the problem. Fixing a symptom doesn't make the issue go away, it just resurfaces in a different way (e.g. going AFK, running at the Killer, etc.). The real problem is they don't feel the need to finish the match.
That doesn't mean it's impossible, though. There are likely some creative ways to discourage abandoning a match, but it's not as simple as disabling the ability to unhook yourself.
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Yeah, but there’s a HUGE difference between taking ur phone out to whatch videos and actually abusing a terrible in game mechanic that the developers support, which only promotes selfish gameplay, not to mention how much this may impact on stats such as kill rates etc.
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easy, that's because that'd require effort and thinking, and they'd rather do literally anything else like making more skins...
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Has BHVR ever considered giving frequent ragequitters a higher priority to match with other frequent ragequitters?
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Respectfully, i don't agree. You should know that you will never fix "problem", because there are thousands of reasons for it, and most of them are simply absurd. "Oh, i don't like the map, killer, quick down, perks that killer have, ping or i'm just not in the mood to have chases, i came in to fix some gens and listen to some music". You are really expecting that you can fix something about this "problem"?
I had adept Trapper back in the days and i was lucky to be on worst map for me — Gideon. I had a first hook on 2 gens left and guy kill himself on hook anyway. Even in a nearly won game for them. I don't think there was any real "problem" that guy had. Amount of my matches where potential 1k or 2k game turns out in 4k just because one person stopped struggling on the hook in the middle of the match with no reason is atrocious.
With all respect, people do this only because you allow them to feel that they are free to do it and get almost no punishment for it. Throw all your team to death with 99,9% chance and just have 1 minute penalty for it.
Even if you will fix all the objectively most significant reasons why people might want to leave the match, there will always be new ones, simply because that's how psychology works.
The number of people who don't want to put any effort at all into surviving in SURVIVAL game just drives me crazy. We have to do something about this mentality, and not encourage it further.
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