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If both Survivors and Killer play perfectly, who wins?
Hypothetically, if both the Survivor team and the Killer play to their absolute theoretical best, what is the outcome of a match? 4E? 4K? 2K since 60% kill rate is the average?
I understand realistically it may be impossible but for the sake of discussion assume both sides play to the max peak ability possible.
Comments
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Mmm, considering both sides at max peak ability the game should be decided by the build they use and the map they ended up playing.
14 -
If both the killer and all four survs play perfectly, I think that ends in a 4E.
Now the massive disclaimer here is that almost never happens. Essentially never. You need all four survs to be the same skill and play flawlessly. Getting four evenly paired survs is a rarity in and of itself. Having all four play totally optimally and mistake free? Not at all likely.
All players are human and 4v1 also means the surv team has 4x the opportunity for a misplay. It's much more common for a killer to play a "perfect" game than four survs in combination.
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Survivors
Ive seen killers lose with quick down against survivors making multiple chase mistakes, as long as gen are in constant repair just trading hooks will get everyone out the gate.
14 -
There is no such thing as a "perfect game" since there are too many factors that matter independent of how either side plays.
E.g. the Killer, the map, perks, loop location and density, pallet spawns (or lack there of), etc, etc.
8 -
The Nurse.
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Depends on the killer, map, loadouts, etc. No simple to that question.
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survivors. not many factors change that unless the killer is one of the top 3.
Post edited by NerfDHalready on14 -
There are far too many variables to call it decisively one way or another.
Contrary to what some people believe, this isn't 2017 DBD
11 -
Well, if it is a "perfect" game then the survivors as 4 minds can always best a 5th.
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Contrary to what some people believe, this isn't 2017 DBD
:(
Send me there, PLEASE.
2 -
Depends on the killer and map. Hypothetically if both sides played like perfect robots, we feel it comes down to the map and killer in question.
1 -
Would depend on the map and killer, but in most cases survivors would win.
6 -
In a hypothetically perfectly played game, I think it goes to the survivors. Dunno how close it would be, though.
It's an unstoppable force meets inmovable object kinda deal, though.
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It's a dumb fantasy scenario because even comp teams do not play perfect matches. Getting four people to play perfectly in a game is not something that ever happens in a real match. Then there is the Nurse/Blight factor as well. Every argument about survivors being stronger is always based on these fantasy scenarios that don't actually happen. There's always a big IF at the start of it.
4 -
Nurse due to her entire counterplay being human error
10 -
It would be very much reliant on rng and luck.
However, I'd guess it may be the Killer who wins. The reason is we currently have a massive winning streak by a Blight player (was it above 2,000?). He must have played a swf who played as close to perfect or competitively, so the results are there as some loose but plausable evidence.
However, with each rng this will always play a strong factor if both sides are equally "perfect", so any result could happen on any given day. There is no solid answer to this. Fortunately, this is something I doubt will ever happen, not possible.
1 -
Survivors. 95%
7 -
Depends if you include perks and items since its ultimately an arms race for time, and in this context I assume perfect play means perfect information on both sides as well
No perks nothing its just killer hands down, nurse easily reaches a survivor and downs them in 10 seconds then slugs them because assuming they have perfect info and no perks the slug can't pick themselves up and ends the match with 4 slugs after a bit of juggling in ~2 minutes with peak efficiency on all sides
Survivors benefit more from the items and addons than a killer does because their objective time easily goes from 450 to 354 (assuming 1 survivor chased first never gets to use their toolbox), and the optimal speed tactic of no hook slugging now has to deal with unbreakable or even no mither / 4 luck offerings and slippery meat + up the ante to counter hooking. Survivors can last a very long time but likely they would still lose, but the map could be the tipping point
4 -
Depends on a lot of factors, but in most cases it would be survivors who win in a hypothetical mistake-less game.
however no game is ever gonna be free of mistakes, so it's kind of a moot point
4 -
A Nurse that plays perfectly cannot be beaten.
7 -
I think there can't be "perfect plays", because there are many 50/50 situations in this game. But if both sides play at their best, I'm pretty sure survivors will win in most cases, because maps is also important part of this theory. Only exception is Nurse.
2 -
There is little to no factors to take into account. Survivors will 100% win, You have built in Haste, BT, and Deliverance. Stacked with second chance perks and medkits. Survivors would clearly win
4 -
lol
4 -
"there is little to no factors to take into accoount, if you simply take [all these factors for the survivor side only] into account survivors win every time"
6 -
9/10 it would probably be Survivors as its already difficult enough to keep up with a coordinated team. Human error is a determining factor, take that away and you got yourself a whole different game.
Reason why Im saying 9/10 is because of what others have mentioned, the variables. Killers, maps, perks, etc
7 -
Survivor. Survivors playing perfectly means no time is wasted. Killers are reliant on delaying gen progress by keeping survivors busy with other tasks. Even if the killer slugs, perfect plays mean survivors are spread out and only get picked up when ready and safe.
7 -
If the killer plays perfectly, brings their best, and is a Nurse, Blight or Skull Merchant? Killer. If the killer is not one of those three probably survivor.
3 -
4 Survivors on Discord all using perks that fit their playstyle (Not going to say the 4 strongest perks)
And 1 Killer playing their best Killer with 4 perks that fit their playstyle
So offerings will say the most Map Offerings to say the least... with hook Offerings being next
1 -
Survivors, easily.
4 -
Any reason why?
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If the idea is that both sides are playing perfectly then neither side wins in a proper way. Instead the server closes out which counts as a killing scenario for the Killer.
Meme answer aside, if both sides are playing at the highest level of skill then usually survivors should win as they have numbers advantage and less mechanically demanding objective and gameplan. Survivors can snowball the game in their favor during the early game when most every killer is at their weakest. It's hard to make a comeback when survivors burn through gens without resorting to something like slugging.
That said if the killer does gain control of the game then survivors are in for an uphill battle. Late game resources theoretically should be low and the killer should be fairly setup if they've managed to slow the game down. At that point it just becomes forcing that first kill to get the game into a 3v1 scenario which lets the killer start to really snowball due to massive amount of pressure losing a teammate generates.
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Perfectly in general or perfectly in solo q vs in a swf
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I would love to see 100% alch-ring/green speed vs 100% efficiency survivors. Nurse really does come down to human error so that is probably sided with her but blight would be interesting.
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4 escapes in equal conditions and / or 1-2k depending on the tier of the killer.
3 -
I'd say it would be a tough match for both sides but the survivors would win as they will have the ability to pick the map if we take offerings to account as I'm 99% sure 4 map offerings guarantees the map when going against the one
Although this type of thing could go either way and not guaranteed as there's too many variables at play
2 -
It depends what you mean by perfect. Even before we get to 50/50 in chases, there are lots of decisions that are made without knowledge. As killer at the start of the game or off the hook you are faced with very simple decisions like 'left or right' to determine the direction you go. One of those choices is almost certainly better than the other, but sometimes its just a pure guess, though often its an educated guess on what players are probably doing, but at best you have probably.
Then there are 50/50s in chase where both sides are just making a guess at the other player's move. There's a psychology to that, but no way to say what the perfect play is.
Generally though, the survivors have an edge over anything but an S tier killer without mistakes. DbD is a chase game (tag) with perfect predictability. If the survivor plays it perfectly he would know whether he could beat the killer to a window or pallet with 100% certainty. Unlike humans playing tag, where every person runs at slight variations, the computer models move at perfectly predictable speeds, so if the survivor player is able to instantly (perfectly) calculate the distance between himself and the killer and the distance to a pallet, he'll know exactly which one to go to.
On the other hand, its far more likely for the killer to play in this hypothetical perfect. The killer has the chase roll, if the survivor makes a mistake on the distance the killer capitalizes easily, and with four survivors, even communicating on comms, there are just more people to make mistakes.
2 -
If it’s Nurse, they’ll win.
If it’s Blight, they’ll win if they have the best add ons and good map RNG. Even without all that they’ll probably still do pretty well.
Against any other killer the survivors will most likely win.
3 -
I would say in general but optimal would have to be a 4-person swf. So maybe a swf with 4 survivors.
0 -
IMO it comes down to game design.
The vast majority of the killer cast is basically completely reliant on survivors making mistakes in order to get hits. Only very few, like nurse and maybe blight, can really proactively attack survivors. Everyone else has to wait for survivors to loop something badly, fall for a mindgame, run into a deadzone, etc. This is mitigated somewhat by bloodlust and the fact that killers are faster than survivors, but IMO in a scenario where survivors are playing perfectly, it will not be enough. Combine that with there being only 1 killer and 4 survivors, and the killers simply cannot be in enough places at once to apply enough pressure.
If survivors are playing perfectly, they never fall for mindgames. They always play loops completely perfectly at 100% efficiency and waste exactly as much of the killer's time as they can. They never drop a pallet too early or too late. They never run into a deadzone. They never accidentally bring the killer to a gen being repaired. They always leave a generator when they have to when a killer is coming and also never leave a generator too early out of too much caution. They never 3-gen themselves. They never waste time cleansing dull totems, opening chests, goofing around with event items. They never trigger any traps. They (almost) never get hit by any killer powers except when it's a literal guessing game.
In those scenarios, most of the killer cast can simply never do anything to catch up to survivors fast enough, even when they're also playing perfectly. The gens will be done very quickly, and anyone being chased will have have wasted the maximum amount of the killer's time. For most of the killers, it's just a sheer numbers game: 3 survivors cranking out gens as quickly as possible while 1 has the most perfect chase they can. Even if they drop chase with the 1 survivor who's looping them around the map, that survivor will instantly start repairing and another survivor instantly takes up the same perfect chase.
Do I think this scenario is likely to happen in real world game conditions? Absolutely not. Even comp teams don't play perfectly, though I think the fact that comp teams, playing under highly restricted conditions, can still force the killer into only 1k scenarios a lot of the time is getting close to what I'm talking about. But in the "everyone plays perfectly" hypothetical, survivors win and it's not even close.
I could be wrong about this, for sure. That's just my perception of it, but I'm just some ding dong on the internet. :P
8 -
If both parties play perfectly than everything is relied on rng
map, perks, add-ons, item, pallets spawn etc
Killers have the edge
1 -
You could also say the same about Killers playing perfectly
They NEVER get out mindgamed, they never lose Survivors. They never allow the 3-gen to break. Etc etc
3 -
Atp same, take me back.
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Difference is survivors can realistically not get mindgamed with the use of checkspots, while killers aside from chucky cannot do this. Mindgames are only good if survivors have them awful NA checkspots. Chucky is the exception as he creates actual 50/50s where both sides get the same info, which is strong af because he is essentially the only killer that can trully mindgame even if survivors are good, that in of itself is a power, now add slice and dice, he is a beast.
7 -
Yes, my friend, we both know this feeling.
I want the game I loved back. I don't wanna stay here with maps that I do not enjoy, powers that I don't recognize, and my beloved Freddy being gutted.
2 -
Read that they aren't gonna get mindgamed then.
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I guess ultimately I just see those scenarios as more in survivors’ control by default. But I could certainly be wrong! And I could see it swinging the other way, especially for very strong killers like nurse and blight.
But also it’s a totally unrealistic hypothetical because no one ever plays perfectly 😄. A fun thought experiment but nothing more than that.
2 -
This is true.
The game would be rather boring if everyone were perfect.
3 -
A survivor playing it perfectly is neight impossible to catch, they get their fast vaults, know all the tiles in an out, greed pallets to the absolute max and wait at all the check points, mitigating most mind games, relegating the killer to more of a reactive role, then a proactive, while the other three survivors slam gens.
The killer can also mindgame, for example by moonwalking and thus hiding their red stain, but this is much harder then waiting at a check point, due to the nature of moonwalking, ie going in blind and not knowing what the situation will be.
All this accumulates much more favorably for the survivors side, which is why high level play for killers is so stressful (or at least to a high slice of the killer demographic), while many great survivors are utterly fearless and even seek the killer out in order to bait them into a pointless and fruitless chase.
Yes, the killer player also plays it perfectly in this scenario, but still, the survivors have ways of manipulation things in a way that they don't have to rely on the throw of a die on a 50/50, because they can wait and see and then react, while the killers mindgames often require blind faith and a prayer that the survivor messes up or plays along.
4 -
4 survs escape since the killer needs to catch a surv in a mistake to capitalize on it to gain an advantage for a hit.
so that means a surv would be required to make a mistake, but as the title suggest they played perfectly so it's and easy 4 person escape with no hooks.
2 -
Against the Trapper? Survivors win.
Against Nurse or Blight? 3 gens is the best surivivors can hope for.
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