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Balance, Camping and Fun: A Misdiagnosed Problem

Leatherbilly
Leatherbilly Member Posts: 384
edited December 2023 in Feedback and Suggestions

Introduction

Hello everyone. I'm here to address the fundamental problems of DBD's current design. The primary issue is not and has never been camping, and this misdiagnosis of the problem has been a significant red herring for a long time. I plan to address why the balance is so bad, what the Killer meta's response has been, and how to improve things.


In this post, I have created titles that explain the argument each paragraph makes. I invite you to read them all, but if you ever find a paragraph whose title seems so obvious as to be axiomatic, feel free to skip it.


Dead By Imbalance


All Killers Aren't Created Equally

The first fundamental problem is the disparity between killers. I won't spend much time on this, as it is axiomatic that Nurse, Blight and the like are leagues superior to Freddy, Trapper and the like. Far more important is the why underlying this imbalance. For a Killer to be viable, they must combine short chases with either mobility for map pressure/defense or stall. Many killers simply lack the toolkits to do this and thus lack any agency in chase.


Lack of Agency in Chases

If a Survivor is running towards Crotus Prenn main, that represents over a thirty second chase for a killer whose power doesn't shut off safe pallets or the main building window loops. Instead, such killers are required to run Bamboozle full time as a band-aid fix, as many windows just lack mindgames without it altogether. Specifically, many killers completely lack agency in chase and cannot control anything about the flow. If survivors run to Crotus main, you just have to eat the time penalty and likely lose two to three generators in the process.


Another example is the flashlight: if a survivor is going for a save and you're Nurse, Blight, Deathslinger or the like, it will take no investment nor commitment to chase to punish the flashlighter. Now imagine you're a Myers: what can you really do? The answer is unfortunately not much, because to injure them you have to fully commit to a chase and let your slug escape. It's just another problem that only low tiers really need to deal with.


Fundamentally, these killers are predictable, and they have to slowly walk up to you to pose any real threat, which means they have to invest significant time, sometimes dozens of seconds, to actually injure someone.


Disparate Objective Times

All of this wastes precious time that killers do not have, because all five generators can be done in under six minutes. If your Killer cannot secure a hit, catch up and secure another hit in under thirty seconds, you're relying on survivor misplays to succeed.


Additionally, poorly designed mechanics such as toolboxes are still in the game. Generators are essentially a Killer's health state, and simply by equipping an item, Killer now has less time to play the game. Their "health states" just start immediately reduced and there's nothing they can do about it. It's akin to the original Moris in DBD which used to ignore hook states and kill you on your first down.


Fundamentally, the Killer needs to get 9 hook states to win. If a game only lasts six minutes, you need 1.5 hooks per minute. Assuming you are using a 115% M1 killer, this means every sixty seconds you need to get three hits, plus the time to transport a survivor to hook and the time to patrol and find another survivor. That means you have spent less than 20 seconds per hit or you're losing chase.


Perks Make the Gap Wider

On top of all of this and likely having to run Bamboozle full time as a concession to map design, survivors get a free, massive gap opener with Exhaustion perks. Think of how long it takes to catch up to a Survivor who just used Sprint Burst: maybe 10, 15 seconds? Remember that this means once you catch up, you need to get a hit in 5 seconds to keep pace, and once you do, they will hold W key again with their speed boost as your attack cools down.


The kicker? Since every single Survivor is running these exhaustion perks, every single chase will start with you wasting 10 seconds to catch up, and remember, you need to secure at minimum 9 hooks to win as Killer. That means you are spending a minute and a half every game just catching up to a perk being activated, and again, you only have six minutes to start with. There is, again, no agency for the killer in this situation.


Add onto this perks that annihilate your momentum (Deliverance, Dead Hard, MFT, Unbreakabill, etc.) and all that progress you had is gone. When you're on such razor thin margins as needing a hit in under 20 seconds, you cannot afford to also deal with these perks.

Map Design

Map design exasperates the issue by having unavoidable god loops that are guaranteed to just waste your time. Multiple windows next to each other are a safe zone if you didn't bring Bamboozle, and loops such as the main building of most maps tend to have safe, unavoidable pallets. In the most egregious of cases, these safe loops also involve a window, such as Garden of Joy.


The issue is, again, if you only have 6 minutes to get 9 hooks, even if a god loop only wastes thirty seconds, you've lost almost 10% of your total game time to something that was completely unavoidable and outside of your control.


So on top of losing 25% of your perk slots to map design by needing Bamboozle, even with Bamboozle you're losing a big chunk of time automatically.


The Killer Meta

What is the Killer's response to all this? The answer is not and has never been camping. The optimal meta for Killer is and has always been TUNNELING. Kill a Survivor as quickly as possible, and they lose 25% of their repair efficiency. This is one half of the problem of why Killers tunnel: we simply don't have time to get 12 hooks.


BHVR Incentivizes Tunneling

The second half of the problem is that there is zero reason to ever switch targets once someone has been hooked once. Here's the math on Killer decision making:


If I hook a Survivor, they're now a third of the way dead. Once they're unhooked, it takes two hits to down them again due to the Endurance state. Then, they're 2/3rds dead. If I chase the savior, it will take two hits to down them because they're healthy. Then, they're 1/3rd dead.


It's plain to see what the optimal play is: once someone is hooked, target them relentlessly until they die, because being hooked has absolutely no penalty until it's the third time. Until a Survivor dies, you get nothing for hooking them, and their repair efficiency is still 100% once the Survivor is unhooked.


Put more succinctly, I can choose to get a kill after 9 hooks or after 3 hooks depending on who I target: which one do you think I'm going to pick?


The Solution

Firstly, know that this change would have to come with nerfs to Nurse and Blight at the very least, and potentially other top tier killers. However, the solution is evident: introduce a reward for hooking new survivors as an incentive to switch targets. We don't currently have time to switch targets, so give us time for hooking someone new.


It can be as simple and inelegant as a baseline painres effect for each survivor the first time they're hooked in a Trial. But until there is an incentive, the gameplay loop of DBD will forever be the same: find someone, tunnel them out, rinse repeat.


it's a boring, tedious and frustrating meta, and it has destroyed the enjoyment of both sides. These changes would diversity the Killer meta as well as remove some of the most toxic and frustrating moments of DBD.


TL;DR

Nerf Nurse/Blight, then add a baseline stall mechanic to reward the killer for switching targets

Post edited by Rizzo on

Comments

  • Leatherbilly
    Leatherbilly Member Posts: 384


    There isn't a better solution is the problem. If you just gut tunneling, many killers will just be completely unable to keep pace with gen times. You can't just increase gen times, as it'd hurt low elo more. One easy solution, like I mentioned, is a baseline painres effect for your first hook on each Survivor.


    Like I said, I can get a kill in 9 hooks or in 3: which do you think people are going to pick? It's not a fun gameplay loop for either side to just get tunneled into Oblivion because killer has no other choice.

  • Leatherbilly
    Leatherbilly Member Posts: 384

    That's just nerfing low tier killers even more because the Killer meta is annoying.


    The Killer response would just be to spam the top tier killers even more and never bother with 2/3rds of the killers in the game.

  • Leatherbilly
    Leatherbilly Member Posts: 384
    edited December 2023

    I'd be fine with also gutting tunneling if it came with a buff that gives killers more time to play with when they don't tunnel.


    I'm just saying that just gutting tunneling isn't the best solution because it'll leave a lot of killers with absolutely nothing to deal with gen times. If it weren't essential anymore, sure, get this toxic playstyle the Hell out of DBD.

  • GeneralV
    GeneralV Member Posts: 11,715

    That, I believe, is another problem entirely. Killers certainly didn't ask for STBFL to go to the chopping block, for BBQ to lose its bloodpoint gains, for Nurse's Calling to fall from grace, for Ruin to get reworked and nerfed... and so on. The perks that make the killer meta have to be reverted / adjusted individually to give killers more options.

    And people played plenty of killers while Decisive Strike was here to prevent tunneling. I don't see why that would change if the perk was brought back to its former glory.

  • Leatherbilly
    Leatherbilly Member Posts: 384
    edited December 2023

    I just wrote a huge essay on all of the reasons it actually is necessary as a low tier killer against equally skilled survivors.


    Also, the gen kick meta was nuclear waste level of toxic.

  • Leatherbilly
    Leatherbilly Member Posts: 384

    Survivors have gotten significantly better over the years. Recall that survivors used to get killed back when there were true and actual infinites in the game, and before window blockers every window basically was an infinite because Killer vaulted way slower back then.


    Also, recall the Depip Squad that had some ridiculous triple digit win streak back in that era of DBD, and that was even including good killers like Nurse and Huntress (Blight having not been released yet).

  • Pulsar
    Pulsar Member Posts: 20,909

    It was also extremely strong and yet, we saw an extremely high amount of tunneling.

  • Raconteurminator
    Raconteurminator Member Posts: 618

    What is tunnelling? I mean, fundamentally. It's a player choosing who to chase and when; it's basic player agency. To "gut" this "toxic" play-style as some have suggested would ultimately come down to either punishing people for exercising a choice or simply removing that choice by making it for them. I don't like the sound of either.

  • GeneralV
    GeneralV Member Posts: 11,715

    Well, I am indeed the most old-fashioned DBD player you will ever see, but that is not the era of DBD I'm talking about.

    I'm talking about Decisive Strike being an anti-tunnel perk that actually worked, so that would be from patch 2.6.3 until patch 4.6.0 when they added the deactivation conditions. Before patch 2.6.0 DS wasn't an anti-tunnel perk, it was an anti-momentum perk.

    But I think its presence is required to help fight against tunneling, and I doubt bringing it back would have bad consequences. Certainly better than leaving the situation as it currently is.

  • Leatherbilly
    Leatherbilly Member Posts: 384

    As I said, I'd be more than happy with giga-nerfs to tunneling as soon as it isn't necessary for these lower tier killers to compete.

  • Marc_go_solo
    Marc_go_solo Member Posts: 5,347

    One thing to mention is players who want to tunnel will tunnel, no matter what incentive or punishment is laid out before them. Some may change, but those who want the win and are heavily reliant on tunnelling to achieve this won't change their tactics.

    Rewarding a Killer for not spreading the hooks between Survivors whilst also boosting anti-tunnel mechanics significantly may be a good way about it. However, there are many nuances to consider. It's a tricky fix to get it done right.

  • Leatherbilly
    Leatherbilly Member Posts: 384
  • HerInfernalMajesty
    HerInfernalMajesty Member Posts: 1,976

    You’ve summed up very well how I feel about what’s going on with the game. I do feel that the Killer doesn’t have enough ways of slowing the game down enough.

  • Pulsar
    Pulsar Member Posts: 20,909

    Yes.

    You are suggesting we buff Killers who are doing well based off of your feelings.

    The stats show that Killers, as a whole, are doing just fine. We do not know what will happen if we change things significantly. Someone like Artist may need some minor changes whilst someone like Myers, well, might need much more.

    You cannot buff Killers right now. They are doing well. You also cannot buff them without knowing what exactly will be done to them if you remove tunneling.


    You are basing your argument off of completely anecdotal evidence.

  • Xernoton
    Xernoton Member Posts: 5,887

    Could you elaborate a bit further what you mean by "gutting"?

    I am all for nerfing tunneling and camping and then pushing towards a more pleasant gameplay loop but I do not like the idea of completely removing them as it would remove agency over the killer's play style, which then makes the game more repetitive and predictable. I would like to see these strategies to be way more situational but still effective when done correctly.

    For example: When 3 survivors run around their hooked team mate, then camping should be a valid strategy. Or when a survivor runs up to the killer, after they were recently unhooked, then the killer should be able to punish them.

  • Pulsar
    Pulsar Member Posts: 20,909

    Make them completely intangible until they perform a rushed or conspicuous action or until another Survivor is hooked.

  • Xernoton
    Xernoton Member Posts: 5,887
    edited December 2023

    As long as there is only one at a time, they don't have collision, can't drop pallets or use flashlights during that time, I am fine with that suggestion. Also, this should have a max time limit. Otherwise you'd have 1 survivor that doesn't do anything and just waits for their guaranteed hatch escape.

    We don't need an invincible survivor running after the killer and making it completely impossible for them to progress. Much less multiple survivors like that.

  • Pulsar
    Pulsar Member Posts: 20,909
    edited December 2023

    There can't be more than one due to the "other Survivor being hooked deactivates it" thing. Niche scenarios where multiple Survivors are hooked would be an issue. Put it on a 45 second timer? Plenty long enough to make tunneling inefficient but not long enough to be an issue, I think. I suppose you could add a condition for being killed as well, that would be wise. Difficult to balance the interactions with flashlights but honestly they could use a buff, just not sure that's the one I want to give them.

    Disabled during EndGame, of course. No collision, dropping pallets or fast actions disable it. Anything that would disable BT or DS applies as well.

  • Raptorrotas
    Raptorrotas Member Posts: 3,253

    Wow what a nicely flourished nerf nurse thread.

    • Problem: "Many killers except [Top killer name hete] have problems"
    • Solution: "nerf [Top killer name here] so they have that problem too."


    Just buiff the weaker killers to be on par with the other charactets on their side. Whys it so hard to use this logic for killers? Theres real game mechanics to rweak compared to the survivors' solo/swf discourse where its a matter of third party apps and player agency.

  • Xernoton
    Xernoton Member Posts: 5,887

    Seems reasonable. But I was mostly thinking about what would happen, if an invincible survivor followed the killer around to pallet or flashlight save their team mate with absolutely nothing the killer could do to avoid it. As long as they would be able to do any of that, you'd just punish killers all around for hooking, which in turn would lead to slugging becoming the go to strategy. Then we'd have the same discussion again with base kit Unbreakable.

    Buffing flashlights is one thing (something I don't necessarily disagree with) but this is not the way to go.

    If it was that easy, don't you think we'd have more discussions about that? The truth is you can't just buff Trapper, Wraith, Clown and the likes to be on par with A tier killers without them becoming atrocious to play against. And I don't know about you but I kind of like playing survivor every once in a while and not feeling like I want to dc in the first 15 seconds as well as my killer queue times not being an hour long.

    The idea is to close the gap between high and low tier killers as far as possible and then rebalance the game around that.

  • Rulebreaker
    Rulebreaker Member Posts: 2,119

    Well, this is a nice change of pace being extremely organized.

    All Killers Aren't Created Equally

    This isn't as inherent a problem as this creates verity in killers and their powers (how would you make Myers equal to Nurse while keeping their identities unique?). That said this is more our opinion on the matter. Each killer is viable, all its dependent on is how hard they're going to work for victory.

    Lack of Agency in Chases

    This is an odd one for us to explain so please bear with us. Killers always have some form of agency in that they can choose who to chase and dont have to chase someone into areas they do not want to baring the last survivor. For example, should we as Ghostface see a survivor run into the Ward, we can simply chose to go harass their teammates instead and create some presure elsewhere. Some maps killers indeed have little to no control of the chase but this is where killers need to know whats worth it in the moment and occasionally part map problem (we finally saw the new garden of joy). You don't ever need to fully commit to a chase that leads to a hook (DISCLAIMER: Within reason. For the love of the entity this is not endorsing camping a 3 gen at the start).

    Since you can counter flashlights a few ways, leaving the slug creates pressure anyway and or for them to use unbreakable (or rarely be in the boon version) we're not seeing this falling under "Lack of Agency in Chases".

    Disparate Objective Times

    Realistically, how often do you see gens done under 6 minutes without horribly failing or there being a SWAT running toolboxes and gen perks? (Note: SWAT is a highly efficient, coordinated, and skilled team of survivors that know killer weaknesses and how to maximize tiles) One detail you forgot is that killers get more dangerous the more resources survivors use. Maybe that first chase lasts a minute, but if you removed say 6 strong pallets, that next chase should be cut drastically. Barring super strong loops (stiiiiiiiiilllllll lookin at that mansion) chases (or atleast hits) should be getting shorter and shorter.

    Perks Make the Gap Wider

    And perks also make the gap shorter. You seem to be under the impression that the killer is under a very specific clock, specifically 6 minutes. They are not. The amount of time a killer has depends on how they are doing. A killer failing to exert any pressure on survivors is on them, and we've pressured survivors with the likes of Trapper, Myers, and GF (GF is even a favorite of ours) so its not the killer design causing this.

    Map Design

    This is one where we don't really disagree, baring you bringing up the most extreme cases (and you thinking Bamboozle is a must). We will point that maps can also favor the killer which leaves it to RNG depending on map and killer in question.

    The Killer Meta

    Killers don't need to tunnel. We know its been said and no one want's to hear it, but like Pulsar said, people tend to pick whatever they think is the best and easiest way.

    BHVR Incentivizes Tunneling

    ....This has some flaws...especially if your lumping all killer players like this....we're going to put is short and simple in that generally (not everyone and not all the time) killers make decisions in the moment (if you want more in-depth ask and ye shall receive whenever one of us gets to it).

    Your Solution

    While we do in fact have time to switch targets (if you do it smart), we would like a reward for playing hook merry-go-round, but people will still tunnel (You may wana define tunnel, for this we're using: "Consciously choosing to chase and hook 1 specific survivor until death despite the availability of other viable targets") if they want to and there is a valid point that removing a survivor from the game is strong enough that the reward needs to be good. There would need to be an extreme plan and it would need to happen all at once (all the nerfs/buffs/reworks/etc).

    ...ye seem to have a dislike for Nurse and Bleet...

  • Pulsar
    Pulsar Member Posts: 20,909
    edited December 2023

    I suppose you could change the deactivation to downing another Survivor, though I might suggest a distance requirement for that, say, within 10 meters of the Survivor after 8 seconds of being unhooked. This should prevent a hook trade meaning easy tunnel but still punish people trying to abuse it

    That fixes the flashlight interaction and the tailing issue you brought up.

  • DrDucky
    DrDucky Member Posts: 675

    I think you put too much value in bamboozle, the perk is decent but the counter to god windows is to also recognise that said setup is too strong and simply just leave that survivor.

    Also your argument for tunnelling is not 100% correct. Tunnelling a guy out is great if you can do it, but hard targeting someone at the start can backfire in a huge way if they are good. Since when you are chasing one guy, you are pressuring 0 other survivors and that leaves 3 people unchecked doing gens.

    Having a guy on hook does not mean 100% gen efficiency by any means. If you look at what happens when you hook a guy and leave you have: 1 guy on the hook who cannot do gens, another survivor coming to save who is not doing gens and finally the guy who you decide to chase who is not doing gens. In that moment you cut their gen time by 75% just from hooking one guy so saying that they keep 100% of their gen efficiency when you get 1 hook is simply just not true.

    Some of your points are valid, but you are looking at some aspects incorrectly.

  • Xernoton
    Xernoton Member Posts: 5,887

    Why the distance requirement though? I genuinely don't see why that would be necessary. The timer I understand and don't disagree with but do you really need both?

  • RaSavage42
    RaSavage42 Member Posts: 5,566

    Killer's were designed to be different... each with their own playstyles

    Camping is an issue... caused by a lack of urgency on everything besides Perks, Killers, Items and Addons

    Maps aren't interactive enough

    Perks are an issue cause they can swing the trail one way or the other... if you don't believe me gather friends and play a custom match with no perks, Items or Addons

    And then add in Items and addons... then slowly start adding in Perks

    Then getting into the MMR... it's only based off of Kills and Escapes which I find an issue with