I hope bhvr realizes this
Comments
-
but unfortunately they actually do, that's not a perception or view thing. they might not need to stack 3 or 4 slowdown but running none isn't the move. killers can run info or chase perks that will enable them to get quick downs but even if you get instant downs and never need to look for survivors gens will get done at very few hooks, if survivors are efficient enough.
2 -
I will freely admit and support the idea that running no slowdowns is harder, but running slowdowns is by no means a requirement, not even close.
The perception is that you need one or two slowdowns but three or four is the best outcome for you, but this is incorrect. You don't need any, one or two is the sweet spot (ideally ones with actual build synergy), and three or four is going to give you diminishing returns as well as the lack of other tools harming you substantially.
It's not just about how fast your downs are, it's about your wider map pressure. How many survivors you're occupying at once, for how long, how many resources you're getting rid of, how many survivor mistakes you're seeing and capitalising on... these things are aided by smart use of slowdown perks, but it doesn't require any and it's harmed by stacking your whole build full of them.
So, it's going to be a hard problem to fix. Some would suggest a simple "git gud" mindset from BHVR with the nerfing of slowdown perks and the expectation that players will simply learn what they're supposed to be doing or otherwise go on hefty loss streaks, but that has the risk of alienating the playerbase, so I don't personally support that fully. Certainly they won't fix this by giving players even more strong regression tools, though.
1 -
They don’t want to introduce new slowdowns because most likely they’d excel on killers such as Nurse and Blight and would be used to overkill. Think that simple perks like Awakened Awareness were nerfed just because they were considered abusable on Nurse. Those killers will always hold back the strength of perks and will leave the rest being weaker, but makes it sure those stronger ones won’t over excel. Nurse, Blight (etc) hold the killer role back more than any other thing in the game, and when they get tuned down killer perks will be able to be stronger.
3 -
i'd support an idea of perk categories and limiting the number of perks one can run from one particular category so then they can freely buff perks like oppression and even surge.
It's not just about how fast your downs are, it's about your wider map pressure. How many survivors you're occupying at once, for how long, how many resources you're getting rid of, how many survivor mistakes you're seeing and capitalising on... these things are aided by smart use of slowdown perks, but it doesn't require any and it's harmed by stacking your whole build full of them.
majority of killers can't have that big of a map presence and this means without downs they can't create any pressure or have any means to slow the gens down. i agree 3 or 4 slowdown is not required and is too much even but again, against efficient survivors that are not a bunch potatoes at least 1 or 2 slowdown is imo, required for non-top like 5 killers. that is assuming they play "normally"; no tunneling slugging or camping.
3 -
I agree- so perks that help get downs are surely more impactful for those killers than the perks which only slow down generators after those downs are achieved, right?
Info and chase perks aren't a nice luxury, they're just as important and sometimes more impactful than slowdown perks. Until the playerbase as a whole realises this and stops putting slowdown perks on this completely unearned pedestal as the most powerful and most necessary perks in the roster, the problem OP describes isn't going to go away on its own and it'll be quite difficult for BHVR to fix it.
You don't need those slowdown perks. One, maybe two, to help accentuate the slowdown you generate from your other perks and good play, that's what I'd recommend for most players, because it is quite hard to keep up pressure without any slowdown at all, but I'd still not consider it necessary.
0 -
I play killer more than survivor :p
0 -
So from what I've skimmed so far from this conversation I feel like the elephant in the room hasn't been addressed yet, the reason why you see a lot of strong regression perks comes down to two factors, gen efficiency is still too strong even after the changes to the total number of charges and after the penalty for 2 people got changed, the other being the strength of progression perks and how they haven't seen any significant changes in YEARS. Prove Thyself was the only one and the change was barely a nerf as it's still not only really strong in SWF but also has a significant impact in solo queues as well, I mostly play solo Survivor these days because Killer can get a little stressful and the rate that I can hammer out gens if someone on my team is running Prove Thyself is ludicrous.
Survivors have access to more than one decent progression perk without needing to purchase a full chapter or a singular DLC character, but since the reintroduction of the Stranger Things chapter, Killers lost the single general regression perk they had, not to mention that they don't have access to any regression perks from any free DLC Killers or the baseline roster, unlike Survivors. Prove Thyself is still incredibly strong and doesn't need a fully co-ordinated team to work, you see it a lot less now but during the MFT meta people would just stay injured because of MFT + Resilience, so they had faster progression on top of being able to run and vault faster. Gen rushing is still viable yet Killers keep losing their regression perks, and then people wonder why Killers play in a way that's not enjoyable to go against like tunneling on 5 gens, or pick Killers who are super strong and unfun to play against like Nurse or Blight, Killers have no way of knowing if they're gonna get genrushed or not so at a certain MMR ranking, that's just how the game is played because Killers wanna play the game too.
I know that the BNP nerf might get brought up so to head that off at the pass, was that really a nerf? At least with the old BNP you can undo the progression with a Pain Res pop, it was rare but it could be done, the new BNP is permanent with zero counterplay available for the Killer and since it permanently removes 10 charges(which also stack so you can remove up to 40), it also makes regression weaker as regression is calculated based on the total number of charges available in a generator. So, was it really a nerf or more of a sideways buff?
I'm not here to start the "Survivor bias vs. Killer bias" discourse because quite frankly that whole discussion is exhausting and goes nowhere, but I thought it was important to also look at this issue from another angle rather than hyperfixating on just the Killer side of things.
3 -
Can I ask, what do you mean by "Free DLC" characters here? Your statement about there being no regression perks available through those avenues seems very surprising, but I'm not sure what you're actually referring to.
0 -
Basically Killers like Nurse or Huntress, who were added later but didn't cost money at the time.
0 -
Ah, gotcha. Well, for the record, your statement is still technically wrong, but not in a super meaningful way.
Overcharge and Ruin for console, and Huntress Lullaby for everyone, are regression perks. They're not good ones, but they do exist.
There's a couple other things I could respond to there, but I didn't want to wordwall at you immediately when I wasn't sure of your original take. I'd point out, regarding this particular take, it doesn't exactly take long to get the iri shards for Clown or Artist, so killers absolutely have access to regression perks (which aren't necessary to begin with) pretty quickly.
Also, Prove Thyself is not even good, let alone very strong. That's the biggest glaring flaw with your post, I wanted to mention it quickly.
1 -
Oh yeah because consoles got different chapters for free. I always forget that.
While that is true, it takes significantly less time for newer Survivors to get Deja Vu and a decent toolbox. Which is the issue, Killers either have to fork out real money or spend significantly longer to get the Killer with Iri shards AND on top of that, get those killers to at least Prestige 1, whereas Survivors have access to good progression perks right out of the gate, no additional charge or grind required as every new Survivor has access to Deja Vu and Dwight, and Deja Vu is the 6th most used Survivor perk. You have to see how skewed that is, Killers don't have that equivalent is the point I'm making. Except on consoles but you mentioned yourself that those regression perks aren't very good.
Also Prove Thyself is the 10th most used perk according to Nightlight at 9.58%, in my own experience playing Killer and Survivor, that perk is still strong enough to have a significant impact. It's still a vital piece of gen rush builds which you still see at higher MMR levels. Edit: to clarify, I'm not saying it's overpowered as it's still winnable, I have beaten people who run Prove Thyself in their builds but in those matches I hemorrhaged gens in the span of a few minutes, I either finish those matches with all gens done or 1 gen remaining. Granted I play Deathslinger with Surge as my only regression perk, so maybe if I ran the meta it'd be a different story.
1 -
Sure, but it's not as though killers need to put that effort in to counter the survivor tools. The only unbalanced progression tools that exist right now are toolboxes, and even those aren't in every match and aren't entirely insurmountable. A team with one or two toolboxes can still very much be beaten normally, you don't need to go full ultra-sweaty meta build to achieve that.
As to Prove Thyself, I'd counter that by saying that the number one most picked perk, in both Nightlight's list and the real list BHVR put out, is Windows of Opportunity at a whopping 35% pickrate. Clearly, a perk doesn't have to be strong to be picked frequently, because Windows barely even does anything.
PT can be okay in solo queue especially since you can't really control if your teammates know to split up and bringing PT is usually more efficient than sprinting away from the generator when your teammate joins you, but it's not all that good otherwise- it's definitely not a vital part of genrushing builds, you almost can't genrush if you're grouping up on generators like that.
0 -
I mean the most efficient way to rush gens is to have 2 people on one and 1 other person on another, the base progression for 2 people on a generator is about 53 seconds when rounding up, PT can bring that down to about 48 seconds which doesn't seem like much but still pairs really well with toolboxes, hyperfocus and build to last. Hell with 3 people PT further drops the progression from 43 seconds to 36. All numbers are rounded up because I can't be arsed to deal with decimals.
While that is true, Windows is #1 it just gives you free map information, because everyone wants to be like Ayrun or [insert other Survivor content creator here] so they run the perks that they run, believing that it'll magically make them better at the game. When we both know that's not how that works, I took about a 2 or so year break from the game and came back in the middle of the MFT epidemic, although in my MMR bracket most people running it weren't good enough to get value from it, however experienced Survivor players could take that extra 3% move speed to the moon and back again. Also I contribute to Bond being up there because again, solo survivor.
I'm not saying you're wrong or that I'm correct, we're probably not looking at the issue from the same angle. My assessment is probably off-kilter a bit but I can only really go off my own experience and by looking at the raw numbers.
1 -
Take two, I wanted to edit something and for some reason I lost the whole damn reply. UGH, once again this time with feeling!
While it may not seem like a lot, PT can still shave off a good amount of time off progression because of how it alters the efficiency calculation on generators. Most gen rush builds will at most stack 2 people on a gen and 1 person on another, as 2 people bring the time it takes to complete a gen from 90 seconds to 53(all numbers are rounded up because I can't be arsed with decimals), PT on it's own can bring that down to 48, which again may not seem like much but you also have to consider things like what map is being played on, where the Survivors spawned relative to the gens, what Killer is in play, etc. Now factor in Deja Vu and a toolbox. In most cases, a gen will be done before the first chase even starts. Then they can move onto the gen that was already being worked on.
I mean I'd argue Windows is a strong perk that gives you a lot of free map information, it shows you were the deadzones are and it can show you if a loop still has a pallet, or where the windows have spawned. It has a high pickrate because it's easy to use and there's no penalty, people who are good at looping use it to plan out routes and link loops together. Before the nerf you would've seen MFT up there in the top 3(or was it the top 4), that was a very powerful perk in the hands of someone who was experienced enough to get value from it.
I also just wanna be clear, I'm not saying that you're wrong or that I'm correct and only my opinion or perspective matters here. I can only really go off my own experience and by looking at the raw numbers, my assesment may be off-kilter.
1 -
DBD players surprised the top killer perks are meant to stall the game out until slowdown is unnecessary they will need to be strong perks
1 -
Nah... how about we add back the old hex skill checks?
1 -
Your suggestion that "in a perfect world" it would only be chase and info perks isn't very balanced. If I run enduring/spirit fury bamboozle ultimate weapon then I can find people easily and shut down chases quickly. The only reason that combo isn't broken is because all chase builds leave a huge weakness...Gen rush. Balanced loadouts need variety.
0 -
Variety is the spice of life, the idea of any sort of forced meta will outstay it's welcome very quickly. As a killer player I don't want to make my Survivor players' games super unfun or boring to play against. I want my matches to be interesting.
0 -
Why would you bring back noob stomper perk? We really don't need those.
1 -
Exactly....if all perks are chase perks...that is boring. If all perks are locators then same. 4 Gen control is just a grind. Mix em up. Gen control/locator/chase/utility. 1of each and keep it interesting
1 -
If anything, they need to slow down gens. They currently go way to fast and one person is all you need to pop each gen withn less than 5 min or so. If you slow them down then people will have less incentive to use slowdown perks. Hell, nerf them to compinsate for the difference and buff some of the niche perks along side it. But as it stands, slow down perks are 100% necessary because of how fast gens can be currently completed. Its to keep the game from being over in 3 minutes.
0 -
Slowdown is the most reliable.
Totems are RNG reliant.
Information perks can be countered (Distortion) and knowing where Survivors are doesn’t always equate to downing them.
Most chase perks are condition dependent. Enduring + S. Fury takes time to build up, can be countered by predropping. Dissolution has a timer and Survivors know it’s in play. PWYF requires getting into chase and leaving the Obsession. STBFL requires hitting non Obsessions a few times. Bamboozle and Superior Anatomy sees less value on maps with few windows.
Anti Sabo/Wiggle perks. They work against very Altruistic Survivors but not gen efficient Survivors. Killers have no idea whether they are facing a team which will bodyblock/hover near Killer or a team that just wants to hold M1 and leave.
Endgame perk performance is unstable. How fast NO ED gets cleansed, how many stacks on NWO. Whether Survivors will allow Endgame Collapse to run for a minute without escaping to secure a Blood Warden play etc. Introducing more Endgame perks might see more players switch over to Endgame builds.
2 -
Where is that information from and can it be verified to be accurate?
I figure only behavior has access to the correct, true data.
1 -
Nightlight.gg, it’s non official but it has proven to be pretty accurate in the last couple years
0 -
There are a lot of people saying how miserable it is to go against Pain Res + Pop and that stacking it is OP.
(Which it's not just don't group gens, split up when the killer has this, can't regress every gen)
Which is completely ridiculous since survivors can 4 stack the same perks. Imagine having 4 Pain res for the killer.
Survivors can have 4 insta heals, 4 Sprint Bursts, 4 Adren, 4 DS, 4 Unbreakables. There are right now Pub stomping swfs using these full metas, all running the same 4 perks, pre dropping pallets, and if you leave the pre droppers, they sprint burst away from the gens.
Being able to stack Gen regression is fine if survivors can stack their perks too.
Only change that would be fair in limiting killer perks, is if survivors can't have any duplicate perks as well. EI survivors must have 16 unique perks.
Although even with this change survivors would still dominate the high MMR lobby significantly.
Maybe if more basekit stuff is added to killer it would make it feel less needing for those perks on killers, but it doesn't mean to nerf the perks just because base kit stuff was added.
They added Basekit BT/Guardian, they Buffed BT, not nerfed it.
They added no hook grabs/free anti camp deliverance
And soon anti 3 gen base kit for survivors
I think it's about time Killer got some base kit love as well. (Base kit corrupt is a good starter) No need to nerf perks.
Pain res + Pop are both good gen regression perks, but they are also extremely fair in the way they are earned and are healthy for the game.
Pain res incentivizes not tunneling and rewards the killer (Very good)
Pop incentives Hooking and kicking gens, rewarding the killer for the work they put into the down.
Exhaustion perks slow down the game by extending chases, however they are completely free to use and come back every 40 seconds. At least with gen Pop + Pain res you have to earn the slow down. (This is why COB and Overcharge were OP because they are free).
If anything make it so you have to complete a gen/unhook to activate exhaustion perks.
0 -
It's from Nightlight, basically people upload screenshots of their scoreboards after matches and that compiles what perks were being used. It's about as accurate as you can get without being able to see the raw data directly from the game itself.
2
