why are all these new systems so bad?
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Dead by Daylight 2 with no progression/character transfer and just riddled with more microtransactions (I think all that's left is a optional subscription model).
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Anti-facecamp has worked great. I could see an argument that the timer should be a little shorter than it is, but overall the feature has been solid.
Hook camp Bubba is dead, I used to have days where I'd run into him multiple times.
Proxy camping is still a thing, but far more feasible to get the unhook now, even if its a trade. Much easier to pop a reassurance.
The basekit BT gives the survivor time to get to a loop. It doesn't prevent tunneling, but at least allows them to play the game.
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There are no blanket solutions to these issues they would need to completely change how hooks and everything else work be happy they're even trying to look into it
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I thought the excessive camping situations where the main target they wanted to tackle.
In my opinion, that worked.
Camping will never go away. The killer would have to be a Bot themselves. If a player decides to camp, they will camp.
Best that can be done is to give the player a reason to leave. Limiting where you can be is not the best course of action if you ask me. It always feels bad.
Last but not least, why is this a lose lose situation? A survivor gets unhooked. That's a win situation in my book. Sure it's just an exchange, but that's better to how it was not too long ago with hook grabs rewarding literal face camping.
What we have now is undoubtedly better, but hopefully not the final solution.
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As mentioned before: the anti-facecamp has worked well. What has enhanced it is the removal of rescue-grabs. As well as facecamping, Killers had the ability to play a waiting game by a hooked Survivors, whilst Survivor team players were stuck in a scenario of being grabbed despite being healthy. Now there's more confidence in those rescues. Although I cannot say what the general experience has been, I've not seen any face-camping since the changes. It has succeeded in my view.
Tunnelling is trickier, as although the BT effect is working as intended, if a Killer wants to tunnel then they will. Also, how far can anti-tunnelling be pushed before balancing is screwed? There is no way to stop this. The only things that can be done are being sensible with unhooks, valuing being unhooked and getting as far away as possible for a safe heal. Killers who do tunnel because it's easy will go up MMR too quickly and suffer, whilst those who learn the craft will get much more gratifying experiences.
Finally, the 3-gen only needs to prevent Killers who choose to hang around a close 3-gen early on and make it difficult to break, like Skull Merchant used to do. If a Killer focuses on sacrificing Survivors, degending when needed and the Survivors 3-gen themselves, then those Survivors won't be benefitting at all - and rightly so, because this system will be to punish gen-camping Killers, not disorganised Survivor planning, resulting in a 3-gen of their own doing.
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They do not get unhooked if the Killer has any sort of brain.
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So bomb rushing the hook doesn't work?
That's new to me. I dont play Bubba.
I have survivors unhooking right after I hooked. I just hooked and seconds later, a survivor rushes in and unhooks. Jokes on me, they have deliverance.
Camping and tunneling are not the "fix all" - solutions for killer. If your not playing a character that has the ability to down fast, both strategies can cost you the match.
I'm all for less camping and tunneling in dbd but that's not what the game seems to indicate right now.
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If you can't tunnel or camp effectively, that's on you, it is not hard.
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Okay, so normally a survivor has to take two hits to get on a hook. An extra-health state makes it three - essentially granting an extra chase where one's skill can shine, prolonging it long enough for gens to get completed. OTR gives two of those. I feel if two extra chases is "nothing" for someone, no amount of extra health-state would help that person. Killers can hit though all of them! They have all the time in the world.
The way I see it is that the purpose of anti-tunneling is making chasing one survivor more costly - not to ensure that survivors can only die at the very same time (provided they don't all escape).
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I will never get bore posting this
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Friend. If I hook someone and someone is already behind me, I CAN'T stop an unhook. It's not possible.
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It was.
It should be.
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I'm not sure where you're going with this. Yes, the fact that survivors are making so many mistakes with the system and the fact that killers have easily adapted is exactly why the system has made things worse.
As far as it being a free buff... if a bonus that comes into play 1 out of 50 matches (and that's being really generous) is a confounding distraction for the other 49, it's not a buff at all.
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Oh god don't give them ideas 💀. Other than a sub, the last straw would be loot boxes. Let's not forget those are banned in a lot of countries that ppl play this game in at least!
Gatcha style games are the worst, I hate loot boxes.
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not to mention the endurance off hook wasn't exactly an anti-tunneling change, just an anti-farming change.
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What's that got to do with camping?
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Unhooking?
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But it is not three healthstates. If a unhooked Survivor is chased again, it is most likely 2 Health States at best, because they are injured and MAYBE have Endurance as well. So it is at least the same like chasing a healthy Survivor, in reality, it is better to chase the just unhooked Survivor. Including minor things like better tracking and not having to care about things like Deliverance.
And once this Survivor is dead, the game is basically over, when it happens early enough (which mostly means - anything with 2 or more Gens left). Because the normal gameplay Loop of 1 Survivor hooked, 1 in a chase, 1 going for the Unhook and 1 doing Gens cannot work anymore. And then we are also at the point where the Killer does not really have to care about anything, they can just chase as they like, they can go for Hooks and maximize points, because the Survivors will have little to no Gen-Progress.
Giving an incentive to not tunnel will not help as well. It would need to be OP to be better than turning the game into a early 3v1. The Devs need to create meaningful systems against things which are unfun. And this goes for both sides. However, I know that it is not easy, because they need to keep in mind the normal gameplay, it should not be the case that those unfun things completely get removed or that the respective side does not have to care about them. But their current track record of changes is really bad.
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Well, a two-health state chase sounds healthy to me. The main benefit of proxy-camping is to cut that in half, so the killer can chase someone before she gets healed. This benefit is largely eliminated by anti-tunnel perks like OTR.
Otherwise... it may be hard to accept for the average player, but the game is balanced with lethality in mind. In the competitive scene everyone hard-tunnels, yet the survivors have a great escape rate. But even in the public queue I met many groups who could handle this strategy when I was having a hard-tunneling phase. Sure, you can say that this particular killer approach is too easy to pull off, but some say that holding m1 on a gen isn't particularly hard either.
Otherwise there are many popular games where the round doesn't end at the same time for the entire group. Examples include tactical shooters and milsims like Counter-Strike, battle royales like Fortnite, co-op horror titles like Lethal Company, or even board games like Monopoly or Ludo. It's not an unique and/or failed design concept, and definitely not one that's unfitting for a horror / survival title.
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But if they unhook immediately, you're not camping, they're just throwing by giving you a free hookstate.
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If bad survivors and ruining something that was added as a pure buff to survivors / nerf to face camping then idk what to tell you but they likely would be ruining matches without the system as well
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Simplest way to stop tunneling (outside of the EGC) is for the unhooked survivor to become shrouded (dissappear in smoke) for 10 seconds. During this time, the survivor makes no noise, shows no blood, loses clipping with all players, cannot interact with anything. This gives ample time to vacate the area. The killer would have absolutely no idea where the unhooked person went, and the survivor can't weaponize this status with bodyblocking.
If you have to have a lore reason for it, have the hook start to eminate a dark ring visible to the unhooked survivor that slowly grows. That's the entity upset that the survivor got free and is stepping in personally to grab them back. If the survivor gets hit by this growing darkness, then they get downed again. This, in turn, forces the survivor to vacate the area and away from the hook area and away from the killer.
The killer could still try to hunt down that player later in the match of course, but this at least stops tunneling straight off of the hook.
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You must’ve gotten lucky then. Like 30% of my games had killers staring someone down at hook if someome did even the littlest thing to annoy them.
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You get the easiest two man of your career.
Down the unhooker and then chase the unhooked.
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If players have a broad enough definition of camping and tunneling then you can see it everywhere no matter what mechanics get introduced.
I've hooked players at game start and only a second time at game end and still been accused of "tunneling". In many cases the terms have gone from being actual describable in game events to intangible concepts used to pad the ego against loss.
"We didn't lose, we got camped and tunneled, so I'm good and my opponent is bad and my being grumpy about that is justified" You see it in game, you see it post game, you see streamers do it all the time. Yes there is genuine camping and tunneling but you have plenty of tools to play around it.
As has been pointed out the "anti-camp" mechanic was simply to combat the most egregious type of face camping. It does this by offering the ability to escape without help and participate in more gameplay rather than just hang on hook for the whole game.
The onus is still on you the survivor to escape from that second chase, if chased again after a self unhook or if "proxy camped" and chased again. If "proxy camping" then its up to players to make smart saves.
If survivors don't let me walk more than 3 steps from the hook before they rush in to unhook, am I proxy camping or are players making bad decisions?
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I mean the basekit BT is incredibly strong because it means survivors can't just be immediatly downed after their feet touch the floor after an unhook. Before they added it BT was basically a required perk, I even saw people say if you weren't running BT you were outright throwing the game and should NEVER unhook anyone ever. Now people don't have one of their slots always filled with BT and can actually pick something else. It also now adds 10% Haste for the duration as well which helps ensure you can reach a vault/loop even if the killer tries waiting it out.
Yes the killer can just hit you right after the unhook but then you get a speed boost and can try getting somewhere to loop. Before you may well have just immediatly got downed and put back on the hook with nothing you could do. How anyone can say basekit BT is useless and does nothing, just seems incredibly disengenous. That or some people just wont be happy unless they make an unhooked survivor outright invincible.
Tunnelling is a big issue, yes, and I do think they need to do more to help weaken it while buffing spreading out hooks. However, basekit BT was a BIG buff to survivors.
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Basekit BT wasn’t even a buff. It just helped survivors break even for an awful game design oversight.
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If they have deliverance that's anything but throwing but ok.
Proxi camping is strong. But that was never meant to go with the anti face camp mechanic. That's all I wanted to say.
Camping and tunneling are also not an auto win strategy. Without the correct killer and on the wrong map, it can go very badly for the killer player. If the survivors are not on point though, it is very effective, yes.
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But then I'm tunning and slugging.
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They're not gonna get deliverance against a camping killer since it requires a safe unhook though.
What problem, exactly, was anti-facecamp supposed to fix, then?
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Killers standing directly at the hook. This was especially nasty if a Cannibal, Trickster or Huntress did it.
In that regard, I can say that I also got value from it. Had a Huntress standing right in front of me on the hook with her hatchet ready. Bar filled up and I got out. It worked exactly as intended.
Batteling camping as a whole needs a far more complex solution if you ask me.
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Killers standing directly at the hook.
But that was never a complaint. The killer being too close wasn't the complaint.
Unhook denial was the complaint.
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The anti camp and tunnel mechanics are made to be very soft as to only affect killers on the hook.
Both forms were weak versions of perks killers regularly work around.
So, useless.
Meanwhile buffed killer as compensation obviously.
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Anti tunnel system? No such thing. If you mean base Endurance, it was only added to make it so BT was no longer a requirement. That's all.
The anti camp system was made to help against face camping. The devs said numerous times that proxy camping is perfectly valid and endorsed, and designed the system accordingly.
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This I totally agree with. Now look at this. Chucky was only $5, skins were more. How many Tiffany's or scare faced Chucky's do you see? Now compare this to the amount of past survivor new skins and that's a huge difference. They are reworking all their killers because survivors left and are no longer spending money, killers won't spend money. They pumped up the bots, anti camping, and all these things for survivors and they are just a let down. It's like your parents hinting they are going to buy you n car and then you get a matchbox instead.
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I don't understand why everyone is crying at tunneling and camping guys, it's not serious. I understand it's not pleasant, but nevertheless it's the mechanics of the game. Many hunters when I asked them "why they are tunneling" they said "because you are genrushing me". This is the main reason for both camping and tunneling! Tell me how often do you get camped and tunneled on 5 generators? And now it's the same for 3 or 2?
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genrushing isn't healthy either. both sides should feel like they have a chance against each other, but with tunneling & camping along with genrushing makes it unfair for both sides. but then again, there could be multiple reasons why each side does it. the killer could tunnel/camp you because you were toxic, and survivors could be genrushing you because you suck at keeping gen pressure.
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The devs would rather add half-baked ideas than actually address core issues. Obviously getting camped and tunneled isn’t fun, but killers have to do it if they want to win. The whole memey 12 hook thing is only doable if the survivors are inept. The game needs to be redesigned.
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I've gotten value out of the AFC system against much less experienced Killers before.
Like the Ghostie I played just the other day. He was trying to proxy camp me just out of Kindred range, but because I also had open handed the team knew what he was up to (a strong Solo Q perk combo btw. Give it a try). He eventually gave me enough anti-camp by patrolling around the hook and I was able to free myself while his back was turned. In the end we got a 4E because the team did all the gens while he wasted all his time attempting to camp me out.
So I don't think it's fair to say it does absolutely nothing. Not every new feature BHVR adds to the game has to be for the benefit of the veteran players. I'm sure it helps new Survivors out quite a bit by punishing Killers that try to face camp someone out of the game, by denying any possibility for the team to come and hook trade.
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Its because along side these changes killers are getting little in return. Sure the 10% faster kick speeds and hit cooldown reduction is cool but it pales in comparison to someone having 10 seconds of endurance and haste off hook. They try to address all these problems without addressing the biggest ones being map design, exhaustion perks and nurse.
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Yes, that's right, but the very reason is that you never know which side will be the first to resort to such methods and as a result it turns out that the player on the killer starts to tunnel on 5 generators because in the last game he was genrushed and vice versa, so why not just put up with it and camp and tunnel if genrushing?
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Because bhvr doesn't want to put a hard lock on it. It wouldn't be fun to be locked out of a situation because of any anti- measure.
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