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P100 Trickster - I HATE the Rework: Updated Feedback
Comments
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Trickster is punished with less MEs and more reloads as is. OP cares about the surv counterplay a lot imo.
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Because if those changes are implemented, then Trickster would be absolute complete trash.
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Disagree. Better lethality + ammo economy more than make up for the nerfs.
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I don't know why they complain
Yes the nerf to 8 blades is quite noticeable but if you are a good trickster and you don't miss knives it is not a problem that also applies to the ammunition, currently it is fine the only thing I would change is the addons, do you want to punish for missing knives? That's a horrible idea and the nerf to 8 knives seems fair to me to be 4.6 since Trickster was never a long range killer like a Hunter he was always medium-short range, I really hope BHVR doesn't take this into consideration since it seems like You don't understand how. play trickster
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I can appreciate that Starstruck. You were playing in a different way, and different from the people that I know and follow. (In regards to not needing Main Event with 4.4 Trickster)
However, I think making changes so that he finds more value in his base knives through add-ons is better than trying to make his base kit cater to that specific sentiment of ME not valuable.
Ironically, even though the rework you are painting for this Trickster is more punishing for acquiring Main Event, it feels like it is trying to get closer to 4.4 Trickster; yet, your view on Main Event value, meant you were disregarding one of the most difficult accuracy playstyles that you could achieve with 4.4 Trickster. His Main Event value with no reload.
The no reload playstyle with Death Throes Compilation (DTC) of 4.4 Trickster, which required you to be as accurate as possible to get value from DTC was a very rewarding and difficult playstyle when your goal was to achieve 1-0 reloads a match. VERY difficult to do, and required a lot of thought and knife management. I was striving for it but at best got 2 reloads with DTC in a match. I avoid saying the words “reload for free” because that ######### was not free, it was hard. It doesn’t seem like you ever tried that style, if you are disregarding Tricksters Main Event like you are and that’s a shame. I think you would have liked that playstyle based on what you like about high accuracy, and people like yourself might have seen the value and potential in this character's special ability had they tried that specific reward system. Not to mention that once you start getting higher in MMR, and the wild west of duplicate meta perks, Tricksters Main Event management is what made him competitive with competitive swfs in high MMR.
I’m telling you… the idea that Main Event was invaluable was the exact mentality or view that led BHVR to think Main Event needed to be changed in the first place. And with him changing meant reworking everything to fit New Main Event.
I also played 4.4 Trickster as I've said and I enjoyed a lot of things about that version’s base kit too. But with Main Event being frequent, Trickster being more aggressive in chase, and being 4.6, his kit needed to be altered. Laceration decay can’t be below 15s, its too punishing with 8 knife/16 down. And 6 Knife is better for 4.4 version Trickster, for counter play.
I think where the current Trickster is still ailing or not feeling good, is becoming apparent though. Some things that I can see that we agree on like the frequency of Main Event, being tweaked to hover around 12-16 to activate, is a common sentiment. Starstruck, I know you don’t find value of Main Event, but for the majority who do, shares the sentiment of having a bit longer Main Event, whether reward-based through a buffed Combo System to allow a much longer ME or integrated from Tequila Moonrock into base kit ME, or having both (my opinion) is a shared sentiment. We all agree his add-ons need a buff and also some creativity. They are all still based on a 6 knife/12 down Trickster, and many are weak and don’t promote variety of playstyles. But I do think keeping certain add-ons Main Event Orientated as they are is good, they just need more to them.
Whether you liked old Trickster more or not, this is the version we have now. This Trickster’s current kit accommodates for a different Main Event. If you removed his Main Event, made it too difficult to achieve or disregarded it as a I dont care about it (which would be a tragedy…) hes just Huntress 2.0. Many people do not want Huntress Trickster, including myself. I would be so depressed if that happened….If I wanted to play like Huntress, base kit, I would just play Huntress. But I got to be honest…I only play this game to master Trickster, if that was no longer fun or felt he was just a knock off character of another....I dont think I would play this game as much.
Add-ons to accommodate a Huntress-like playstyle, with long shots… is okay though, I think one Revvium's add-on suggestions I mentioned in original forum, rewards a player for snipes or hole shots… but he is too unique to make him just a Huntress. His Main Event is important to this character whether 4.4 or 4.6 version. Can it be altered and tweaked? Absolutely. But with the acknowledgment that it is a core part of this character and should remain so.
Trickster is so fun to go against. He requires you to be on your toes, and good teamwork because of Main Event. Many people don’t understand the goal with Trickster is not to not go down at all, but to spread out and avoid grouping up, spreading out the downs and wasting his time. He's an intense killer because of the looming threat of Main Event and I love it.
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As someone who has made those montages for content lol..Hole shots and snipes does look cool and feels good to play for. But like you said its not something I would want him to be geared towards at his core. Understanding that when I dont feel like being casual and going on long chases to practice accuracy (basically willingly throwing matches)...when I want to play for "money" and win against a good swf, efficiency matters. Whoever is playing the most efficiently wins the match with good survivors. If I was forced to play without Main Event or without some rapid fire (not spamming)...then my efficiency goes down. Especially when survivors are grouped up, I need some rapid fire, and having Main Event to punish is peak feeling. And I of course will miss blades in matches, I am not Wacek, it would be too punishing to have negative charges. I would feel like I was playing K pop Dark Souls. Survivors...4 of them...with duplicate who knows what endurance/second chance perks, who know how to break LOS and Micrododge, (OMG and bots too) and get gens done quickly and then I cant pop Main Event cause i missed shots...oi.... I am already feeling stressed at the thought.
Using everything Trickster has in his kit matters. That includes Main Event /rapid fire, whether old ME or New. People spamming wildly and missing every shot under the sun but somehow still getting downs and then calling him OP with "underserved" downs .... usually those aren't Trickster Mains and are just playing him once in a while...or they are baby Tricksters who dont have the accuracy YET. Worrying about them is not really something I would change his basekit over.....because as soon as they run into good survivors they realize very quickly spamming does not guarantee winning matches. It guarantees reloading...a lot....and gens popping faster.
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OP does not like main event in general, why are people just ignoring what they're saying entirely?
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Everyone here does as well though, I'm sure. Some of us I can say for certain. Like Endzej and myself. But most of us all play survivor and actively hope they find a Trickster in a pub. I play a lot of survivor, and many I know and even some on these forums, actively go against Tricksters as much as they can in custom matches, of varying skill levels and experiences on both the Tricksters and survivors' part. Basically we are play testing unofficially.
I think thats important to understand Trickster's rework and what he needs, to actively go against as many Tricksters as you can. Which is going to be more valuable information, than the occasional time a baby survivor went against a Trickster once.
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Yo, a few posts below the one you're replying to, I made an updated list of suggestions based on feedback I received in the thread. I'm curious what you'd think.
Also, unrelated, but I'm deathly concerned at the amount of people bringing up huntress in this thread now. Trickster is nothing like huntress at all besides the very basic concept of a character who tosses arcing projectiles... even at their base levels without taking ME into account, they don't play in a comparable way. But besides that, I appreciate your words and would like ur opinion on my more updated suggestions
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1) Because frequent main events are absolutely mandatory, to give Trickster a rapid fire gameplay, and his own identity. Without a rapid fire gameplay, people are better of just playing Huntress, because she's much better at the "I need to carefully aim each and every shot" thing.
2) Because the OP just wants to make Youtube montages, which is completely useless for the rest of us, that want a killer that's actually decent. And by the way, I've been a Blight main long enough, to have seen A LOT of people sharing Youtube montages and video clips of SPICY HITS, to know how much they throw games away just for a chance at getting video content to share.
And the OP still can make Youtube montages with the current Trickster, so it's for the best that Trickster keeps his frequent main events, so the rest of us can have a killer that's not complete trash against survivors that know how to play against Trickster.
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1st and foremost I’ve written down rework ideas for the 4.4m/s and 4.6m/s version in the Trickster Google Doc. Many highly experienced Trickster players reviewed it and didn’t seem to have any complaints regarding it. BHVR has their own vision, it’s their game/ IP. They’ve decided that Trickster should not be as hard to get into as before. He’s one of the controversial killers. Reason being is, that players didn’t bother learning how to properly play him or against him. Resulting in him sounding unhealthy for the game on one side or being seen as too weak by the other side. Hence why the rework happened. This version is something new and we’re trying to make it work and improve for both sides. We’ve gone away from the unhook preventor, territorial Trickster to be a more chase-oriented one.
You saying that I haven’t given you an idea on how to fix your rework is bothersome, when you’re disregarding my opinion that your version in fact would turn Trickster into a worse Huntress and labeling it as nonsense. Not to mention how you’ve responded to my concerns regarding controller player issues and to certain members on this forum, who’ve given you their views. Proclaiming them as laughable, telling them to just aim better, or denying the claim that the survivors you showcased in your montage are playing poorly as if you’re the all-mighty know-it-all (big ego) when you’ve designed a Trickster that is just horrible. Showcasing your lack of understanding of his kit and the issues both sides would suffer from. I understand you’re frustrated but Trickster is not strictly your character and killing off the things that people love about him just so you can have fun and stop whining is not how it goes. It’s not the end of the world. I've seen you play Huntress and it’s exactly like you play Trickster. To give you the same treatment you’ve given me regarding the decay issue, I’d suggest you run Boa and Trick Pouch/ Memento if you want to rely less on Main Event if it’s that big of an issue for you.
I’ve seen your montage of clips. Hole shots are cool to do. But the way you play Trickster is something we as Trickster content creators have taught our communities to avoid doing. Which is to not play him like a Huntress, holding your knives for such a long period of time, hoping to hit a cool shot or two while just inherently slowing yourself down. Once you face a somewhat decent survivor you’d lose too much time on having 0 pressure with your power. It’s the biggest meme amongst the Trickster community. We named it Shoes Gaming. It’s even mentioned as one of the main caveats as to why people don’t play Trickster efficiently in the Google Doc. It’s players who played Huntress before they picked up Trickster and believe he should be played like her. Even Otzdarva after watching/communicating with Trickster content creators (such as Wacek) understood why shoes gaming is detrimental to the Trickster player and pointed out that it’s a trap most players get themselves into. You’ve said it yourself that you’ve played the majority of your games without Main Event literally admitting you’re playing him like a huntress but laughing at me saying that you want Trickster to be Huntress 2.0. The Trickster should have his own identity. If you want to be rewarded for patient shots, play Huntress. Trickster is a lunatic, a maniac who laughs as he sees/hears the survivors in agony. If you have to hit more than 2 knives for a down in this case 12-16, the killer is encouraged to get as many knives into a survivor as possible and be on their tail. While you on the other hand are just walking with your knives expecting them to land (from whatever range) when that’s a huge amount of pressure and distance you’re losing. Sure they landed in THOSE CLIPS that you’ve personally saved, and it’s fine when it’s the last knife before a health state, but otherwise it’s pointless if the survivor has a brain. You’ll feel that laceration decay the moment a survivor stops playing your game. You’ll have wasted knives, lost laceration and have no distance gained. I know, hole-shot / sniper Tricksters love boa, shoes, and cufflinks because it makes their lives easier. Boa especially cause it makes up for the knives you guys missed. You’ll get stuck to those add-ons with no return and without exploring the other sides of Trickster, which is sad. But it’s your game you paid for it so play it as you wish. As we mentioned many times shoes is an add-on that most people start off with but don’t allow themselves to learn the basekit function, rendering them addicted to shoes (in most cases Huntress type of Tricksters).
While it’s cool, that type of gameplay works against survivors who are unaware and don’t necessarily learn from experience ( like hey Trickster shot me once through a hole maybe this time I’ll duck or just wait, keeping my effective distance and maintain los blockage). In the montage: The Felix, the Renato, the Ash and the Yui could’ve wasted so much of your time if they had the right pathing (made correct plays). The hole shot on Claud is just you wasting time, probably why you didn’t include the rest of the chase. These clips are awesome sure, but they don’t define Trickster Mastery. If it was good players you’d lose a lot of time on those chases and have your laceration go to 0. Forgetting to mention your playstyle would in fact be dead if we rolled in your 12s decay idea. The other day I made 2 clips where I did insane hole shot downs, does it make me a Trickster master if I just compile the times my knives hit and just cut out all the misses?
Trickster mastery was trying to avoid as many reloads as possible. It’s what made him stand aside from Huntress whom he was often compared to, a weaker Huntress as they’d say. That playstyle required the most amount of reloads skipped in which case Main Event helped, and a lot. Not to mention you could snowball with Main Event. No reload playstyle was the hardest to do consistently. But harder than that was to use Trick Blades efficiently while avoiding reloading every chase. It’s easy just to spam and hope for value to get a down after using all your knives and reload, sure. But using them effectively is not the easiest of tasks, those knives don’t get attracted to the survivors like a magnet. So no Trick blades are not cheap or easy. It requires an understanding of tiles, surfaces, and the trajectory. Plus it’s the most map-dependent add-on. If you go to Yamaoka, Swamp, Autohaven... you’ll notice that those tiles are not completely flat and that more objects have dents in them when you look at them very closely which visually might encourage you to shoot from afar but they don't allow the knives to bounce as you wish.
From what I’m seeing, you only played Trickster one way and believe that everyone should play him like that. In the Trickster community, as I said you’re a Shoes gamer a.k.a. Trickster that’s a wannabe Huntress. Keep playing him as you like but by ignoring his power identity you’re making him out to be a Huntress, which he’s not. Do not expect the rest of us to obey your “my way is the only way " philosophy.
Another thing, while mentioning that your rework is bad I've given you the issues it has. A 4.6 ranged killer is hard to balance:
- Survivors don’t like going down so fast while the ranged killer never gives them a breather because he’s 4.6. So half a laceration a second is a no if he’s a below 8 laceration Trickster. But with the 7.4.0 ptb we’ve seen that it was a no from the survivor's side, even though he had a huge punishment but was sadly never given a chance to go live. DTC didn’t carry over well to the new version leading people to believe he’s broken without the add-on as well, resulting in his nerf after the the PTB.
- Players not knowing how to use Main Event (pocketing with album or m1 after hitting 1 laceration, 5 knifing a survivor) resulted in people complaining on forums and other social media about how it’s bad and useless and that HE’S JUST A WEAKER HUNTRESS. Because he has to do more work for the same results while one of his abilities was “useless” was one of the reasons BHVR wants it to be his main power. So he could have his own identity.
- You may argue “Let’s give them a smaller laceration decay timer” for example 12. That renders our power useless in the majority of loops in the DBD world. The only way we’d be able to accept lower decay is if we shot enormously fast which would be like more than half of his laceration requirement a second, which is a no, again.
- Also, the reason why I mentioned ramping would be an issue is that for the 4.4 version it fit, because he was a slow killer, and would lose up to 4.5% haste for continuously shooting. Now he doesn’t have a penalty for shooting continuously.
- To have all of this as 4.6 is so much harder to balance as we’d be implementing 4.4 variants of penalties when BHVR doesn’t wanna punish players but would rather reward them for good plays.
- And no the survivors are not being punished just like that. Every killer’s power has to be respected. It goes for Blight, Oni, Nurse, Spirit… even Myers if you let him stalk you he could snowball the game very quickly. Why does Trickster all of a sudden seem like he’s very oppressive when more killers feel more unfair compared to him when he needs to do a lot of work in comparison to them to get his power’s value? Survivors could try to learn how to face a Trickster but refuse to do so. He has counterplay always had.
- All of your changes would lead to further balance issues. Asking for us to go back to the 4.4 version would be a better option with some of the quality-of-life changes that the 4.6 version got.
- But again as Mandy said they don’t plan on going away from the 4.6 version. So, we’re trying to make it work. A 3.3 throw rate doesn’t make survivors go down super quick. It’s at least 2 and something seconds to get to his main power which is now Main Event. Kinda like Oni’s demon mode. Another thing Main Event is not a guaranteed down. If survivors use LOS properly they can avoid going down. For the Trickster, if he secured a down he saved from 8 to who knows how many knives.
- These are the reasons why I’ve said we’re in a good middle ground right now.
AND WHY I’m not giving you fixes since your version just wouldn’t work.
Do these clips make me a master Trickster? (headphones gamer warning) Look at all the COOL moments I've experienced I must be better than everyone cause I mastered him and was able to do all of this, RIGHT?! :))
Whoever Watched all of these you're a LEGEND <3 there could've been more posted but it's biga## library of clips to go through. Hope you enjoyed it.
Some might find certain clips impressive and others not. But since I've experienced all of these cool moments I'm a MASTER TRICKSTER (satire)
This year I'll pay my mods to clip more cause who knows how many cool moments have been missed. :((
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I believe snipe and slow style can be enabled through addons very easily. reintroducing things like original Death Throes Compilation could help in enabling that style, but there's a lot of room for it.
Addons that enable:
-Increased damage at long range
-lower laceration meter in exchange for being 4.4 m/s
-never missing making you more efficient ( as currently going for never-miss playstyle is simply inefficient)
also addons that amplify or have effects that affect you always however have special effects if you reach high combo level have the potential to add addons that give both playstyles very interesting variety. Hopefully BHVR is taking note here because there's a LOT of very good ideas that I think are circulating on this character from all sides. We all want our playstyles to matter, but a good baseline that allows for each playstyle to exist to a small extent in the base-kit and then "Fine tune" with addons is just the best avenue to take with the killer. any mechanic that punishes instead of encourages is very antithetical to this thought process and i believe seeks to keep one playstyle prevalent while underpowering all other playstyles (which i believe is kinda unfun and dull) also i want to say that some addons simply don't add anything to the kit and just add problems for both sides.
- Laceration Duration addons are annoying and frustrating to depend on so i encourage people to never run them, they feel extremely bad to get used to and then stop playing with. also playing against these addons sucks, laceration meter decay should be static and 15s is completely a good number as its worked in every iteration of the design. I propose these addons be turned into "snipe enabling addons" adding damage if you make a shot past 20 meters or so. Most of the time sniping is a massive waste of time because you cannot reliably pressure survivors that cut line of sight if you don't keep on top of them.
- Edge of revival is extremely undertuned for 8 knife trickster, the solution here i think is tricky because adding size to this addon may be problematic, i suggest adding a bonus effect for high combo and buffing laceration damage to 100% for the splash as opposed to .5 because as it stands this addon only wastes ammo and mathematically wastes a TON of potential main event charges.
- Cut thru single is currently very undertuned for 8 knife trickster as well, i think its value will go up with the addition of rolling some of tequila's value into basekit and nerfing main event addons to compensate because this addon should be just fine assuming our basekit doesn't rely on overtuned addons ( currently main event duration addons are way too valuable but just nerfing them would leave us in a very sad state)
- USB and ammo addons suck right now, i propose buffing these to 16 for boa, 10 for trickpouch, and usb to a higher percentage. With the increase of ammo saving we must make on main event we realistically reload way less than before, adding some raw number values to these addons wouldn't break anything and buff up the more patient (worse in terms of power level) strategy without requiring buffing of ammo capacity to basekit ( i dont think our basekit needs it)
- Soda and Ji woons with ramping can just go directly back into ramp up speed, this current version could even use a higher evaluation of these since our addon dependency has taken a sharp increase. more main events would mean that ramping would be less important, thus increasing these addons compared to previous iterations would be very good. perhaps 3 less knives to reach max and 2 less knives to reach maximum throw rate. (this would solidify a strong rapidfire basekit and allow for a capstone 4 kps for people that want such a thing without giving those styles additional addon multipliers off of it)
- Memento Blades can be 4.4 m/s movespeed and 6 knife to lacerate meter, requiring an addon in order to enable a style that may catch people off guard but is still very niche i think is fair, it being a common would allow for tricksters who miss this style to have their style frequently (if they like it, not all do but i miss it sometimes)
- Trickblades is fine, it's a good addon and always is decent for practiced tricksters and super interesting and i believe the pinnacle of trickster addons design, wish we had more of these types of addons with the caveat that we couldn't use multiple different "styles" of knife altering addons together. Trickblades is super fun, and it only helps us to a large degree on maps that are historically hard for trickster anyway.
- Death throes compilation can go back to its ORIGINAL version that enabled "never miss style" its very clear that current D.T.C. feels bland and unrewarding as a pickup on the bloodweb, especially since we have diamond cufflinks which fills a similar niche.
- Killing part chords and Shoes can honestly be higher values but be EXCLUSIVE toward main event. Those of us who have been avid teachers of Trickster have acknowledged for the longest time that while this addon combo is FUN for some, it encourages bad habits. Main event being more common now allows for this addon to be useful as a main event speed boost without encouraging super bad habits and overall making people have a worse time due to creating a dependency and muscle memory punishment.
- Tequila, inferno wires, waiting for you watch, lucky blade are overtuned as of this moment because our basekit doesnt have enough main event duration, these addons likely need tuning down (flat duration a large nerf, likely half value whereas waiting for you watch requires the enemy to be disregarding your main event to see its oni-snowball style value could use a SLIGHT nerf due to it not being super powerful, yet funny when it sees its infinite main event popoff moment) this doesn't happen every game but i'd not like to see it completely be eradicated because its neat and fun!
I think this covers all addons, but one thing is certain- main even being super common requires an oni-style notifcation. There's easy fixes to this current version that allow for all of the Trickster playstyles to be catered to without completely throwing this version out of the window.
PLEASE FORGIVE ME IM SO BAD AT FORMATTING LOL -Revium <3
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I also want to clarify on the types of addons that could be enabled though combo system. combo system encourages you to play slow and never miss with a big payoff in main event. Addons that facilitate combo could look something like:
-Cut thru single
- Blades pierce through survivors
- Subsequent survivors hit by blades receive 50% laceration
- Achieving an A or higher combo causes knives in main event to deal 150% laceration damage if they had already pierced a survivor
Obviously i'm not a game designer, but adding these little easter egg power spikes to combo could give a really interesting hype boost to patient tricksters, while not eliminating any playstyles.
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Honestly every addon could have a "supercharged effect" like this due to how rare A and S tier combo's are in common play, patient and slow Trickster DESERVES TO BE REWARDED and it would be a very fun in the moment choice to say "do i want to go for a combo here in order to set up for shack soon, or do i want to go fast to keep my time efficiency"
There's so many upsides, and I'm so hyped for what a feature like this could do for gameplay variety and long-term enjoyment of Trickster, we want flare, we want stylish, we want the ability to laugh along with trickster as we're doing these wild displays. Main event deserves to be the dazzling display we see its potential in being, hopefully this would push it in the right direction for both thematic and gameplay flare.
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The current is not 6
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Very True.
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It is a difficult one, because he has to be in a certain tier of strength but not too much or or else as you said he becomes oppressive and also miserable to go against. I feel like part of the issue is as a design is the counter play is just hold forward and put objects between you and him since even in a very strong but low wall loop for instance there is nothing you can do, he is also a heavily strong camper. The changes to main event also make him into a (potential) snowballing and camping machine.
As you said the laceration being only 10 seconds made him too weak and the 15 is a little too oppressive. Funny thing is they actually did the 10 second thing to make "dodging" a knife feel more impactful, not realising that it also makes the already strong counter play of holding forward and putting objects in the way so much more effective against him.
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I don't think both styles can co-exist, because you AGAIN decided to super nerf Memento Blades, just for your own personal playstyle. You are fully aware of how many people like the current effect of Memento Blades, yet you repeatedly try to rip that addon away from us.
And the movement speed addons are important for many console players, or other people that just aren’t very good at aiming, because it allows people to try to use his M2 often, without feeling like they’re getting overly punished for trying to use his M2. Saying it “teaches bad habits” is sort of shaming people that just want to play a character that they might not be super good at. These addons lower the barrier of entry for Trickster, which is a good thing.
And the movement speed addons aren’t “taking skill away” from the killer, because the people using these addons aren’t super good at aiming, which means they are using these addons for quality of life purposes. Nerfing or reworking these addons isn’t likely to force these people to “get better” at the killer. It’s more likely it would cause these people to use his M2 much less, feel like his M2 is not worth using, and just stop playing the killer.
I think it’s important to have at least one ranged character that’s beginner friendly, because many new players have experience with FPS games, where the primary attacks involve projectiles, but before Trickster’s rework, all the projectile killers in DBD were so clunky and purposely difficult for new players, that it causes a barrier of entry problem for this game. Yes, it would be even better if BHVR could find a way to make Huntress beginner friendly, since she is a default character, but the Trickster rework was a good start.
Post edited by Coffeecrashing on0 -
My aim would be to add accessibility and the ramping throw speed increase to base-kit, a large % of the playerbase currently feel dependent on memento base-kit. I've posted a proposed throw rate pass above in order to keep tricksters feel "evergreen" and not change muscle memory, trickster addons should change utility imo and never make you less well off or feel less fun when not using them. Memento suffers from this issue quite a bit but i think it could stay, I definitely agree memento is fun to use but i also think ramping would be a great tuning knob to utilize for other addons. <3
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Also you seem to be confusing me with someone else, I have no proposed nerfs at all lol.
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Since you asked my thoughts, I wanted to take some time before answering right away-
6 Knife to Injure
If he was 4.4 m/s then 6 blades is okay.
Laceration Decay
It shouldn't be less than 15s Laceration decay. If he was 10 like before or even 12s, like others have said he would need to shoot faster, but if he shoots faster, then he needs to be 4.4 m/s. If his decay was any faster, it pressures you to get down quickly, maybe even just m1, and would eliminate many playstyles, including yours, for more of the spamming you are concerned about.
Laceration Meter
The laceration meter decay suggestion, I’m having a hard time following. Correct me if I am wrong, but you are saying…if the laceration meter, the individual bar, was halfway to disintegrating, and you hit a blade on a survivor, rather than refreshing that particular disintegrating laceration, you get that laceration back as it resets, and then gain a laceration beyond that? Thats interesting, but again I dont think he should be below 15s. BHVR doesn't want him to not be 4.6, and in the PTB version, 6 blades to injure/12 to down, was thought to be too much on the survivor's end. It all has to fit together based on him being 4.6. If you alter any part of his kit then everything else in that kit needs to be altered and balanced to a similar degree.
Combo System
I definitely like the idea of the Combo system for this Trickster, I just think its weak as hell right now, and needs a significant buff to be a worthwhile reward. I’ve seen some creative ideas with the Combo System from Revvium and it makes me think that it can be used to alleviate some of the complaints about this Trickster. So I wouldn't throw that out, BHVR is on to something there. Definitely would appreciate a reward system for accuracy and for a longer Main Event.
Main Event
Main Event activating at 6, it always felt cheap to me. But in PTB, his overall strength made me think I liked it…. But 6 is just so frequent…8 does feel better. I see what you are doing though with lowering it to keep the negative charges idea, but I just don’t think a punishment system is the way to go with Trickster. BHVR's goal was to make this character more inviting. And I want him to be challenging like 4.4 Trickster, but not frustrating. There are lots of reasons you can miss a knife, things out of your control, and needing new Main Event in a clutch moment, and not being able to pop it, sounds frustrating.
Add-ons
I read your add-ons, but more or less they feel lackluster. It doesn’t offer anything that makes this character special or unique to him. Like all the things we’ve already seen in the usual perks… Even one of my suggestions had Oblivious but the more I think about it, I think I would prefer scream reveal, as its more in line with lore, while also preventing some complications of what this character is capable of and why he has a lullaby. So I would say no Oblivous embedded in his add-ons
I’m hoping for more punch and creativity from BHVR on these add-ons, with Trickster specifically in mind.
But three add-on suggestions you have suggested, I do want to comment on are Trick Blades, Photo Card (PC) and Death Throes Compilation (DTC). Because I think you might not know how some of these are used or how they can be useful. If you are used to sticking to what you know and like, then I can see why. Its good to really branch out and talk with other Trickster Mains who play different ways to get a healthier opinion on add-ons and perks in general.
Trick Blades
There is no reason Trick Blades should be nerfed. Trick Blades takes a lot of skill to master, and a lot of time and memory of surfaces and maps. Spamming is not something you can stop bad Tricksters from doing.... but reloading frequently will and then they will lose because they spent too much time at lockers.
Sniping with Trick Blades at a distance, and actually downing someone with a second bounce is rare, very rare. Seeing someone do them in a compilation clip is cherry picked, and I guarantee took ages to make. If you even see it happen. Having a 20-meter limit is just taking away a very rare fun thing that MIGHT happen these blades.
Not to mention Trick Blades is often used for information, with throwing Main Event Trick blades out into environment to see where people are hiding or stealthing. That extra bounce at a distance helps. But most bounces that result in a hit are calculated when done by masters, so if someone could get a second bounce to down someone…then they deserve that down. Its also very in line with this character from a lore point of view. It adds to his showy maniac personality. It’s the little things, like blades chaotically bouncing around.
Photocard
Why are we nerfing Photocard? Since most people don’t play Trickster to m1 the majority of a match, and the accuracy required to make use of that 6 or 7 percent stack would mean you really earned it....it feels unnecessary to nerf to 5. Most people use PC to take those long snipes or hole shots, then use the speed to catch up since you probably lost sight of a survivor, who has gained distance. I would say this add-on we should at the very least keep as is, for people that want to play more like your style.
Death Throes Compilation
I have been finding value in the aura reading for Main Event with DTC and Tequila. I really enjoy it to be honest, but it feels like that is more of a purple add on, and DTC is lackluster as is.
I have said it could use more punch in my suggestions on the original Trickster forum, whether it makes other survivors scream or reveals their aura, I don’t know what but it needs something more… just a punch to it. It is iri after all.
However, I loved and strived for the no-reload playstyle of 4.4 Trickster, I would not mind an add-on replenishing knives based on accuracy with Main Event. But it could not be the same way as old DTC with a frequent Main Event, and need some difficulty to get blades back. If you are suggesting that, I think it would be worth testing, but you better be ready to go to bat for it cause even if it was difficult to do, as soon as people see the top 5 percent Tricksters master it/or do it, they will call for nerfs not realizing how 95% of Tricksters will struggle to get it more than once a match.
Hope that helps.
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Did not mean for that to post twice....
Post edited by FreeKnives on1 -
Addons shouldnt be made with a specific platform in mind, they should be about the character and playstyle.
Although I am fine with the new version of Trickster...I think it would be a mistake, and ruin everything that is rewarding about him to think that this character should be easy. It would be a mistake to treat him like he should be the easiest of the ranged killers too. I didn't mind 4.4 version, and yeah I sucked with him when I started....but I never expected to just be good at him without practice, without time. So it baffles me when people said hes "too hard" or hes "unplayable" but dont want to put the time in either.
I dunno, I just dont see why people shy away from things that take time to master. With anything....
Some addons he has can make casual players feel better and dont have to worry about getting better at the character or putting too much time into DBD. No one should shame them for that, however, the moment a casual player or a player who doesn't want to learn how to get better with Trickster, starts complaining about losing....or starts giving opinions about how the character's base kit should be because they didnt put the time in to get better, or can't take advice from people who play this character really well....then thats different, thats not okay either. I see it all the time and its very frustrating to hear as someone who got better by just playing the character more...especially when people said he wasn't playable on console. That lead me to playing him more, just to prove to people they weren't actually trying.
Like if you dont play this game often or play Trickster much thats okay. It truly is okay to just be bad, have bad aim and play for fun. You dont need 3ks or 4ks to have fun with this character. There are other characters as well, that are purposefully made beginner-friendly. Trickster is a hard character to learn, or moderate as BHVR has listed. Thats what makes him fun.
Rant over...
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Honestly rereading this, i don't hate this. I'd very much prefer to keep combo as a modifier for certain addon effects in the happenstance that you get a B-S tier combo and keep the basekit value low though. I much prefer addons that interact with a system thats interesting rather than fiddling with survivors internal clock for timing out laceration decay, i have a few other comments and critiques:
- I REALLY LIKE making base-kit laceration decay tick down at the end of the 3 sec timer, gaming against trickster around the meter would feel nice and require trickster to keep up consistent pressure to maintain. Because of this caveat I'd honestly knock down the decay timer to 10 seconds. Also survivor HUD needs to show the stacks dropping like in the past, its been bugged for a millennia.
- I'm actually astonished once i read through your changes for laceration decay how much this would complete its mini-game style gameplay loop, the timers need to be done right and adjusted but this would also add value to the "half laceration" addons innately.
- I would not mind a 2 charge punish on a miss assuming that main event remains at a 6 charges to activate level. Without the 2 charge system i would probably suggest a 18-20 charges required.
- Addons:
- Killing Part Chords: I hesitate to see where this would add good gameplay, would simply like to see something else here that doesn't fiddle with built in main event timings. this addon definitely needs a glow up though, that's for sure- maybe something like "increase laceration meter by 2 knives ( 8 knife laceration meter) and increase throw rate by 20%" BHVR would be better than me at setting values, but having transformative addons here definitely helps a lot for Trickster enjoyment and enjoyment in a way that feels fair with a trade-off.
- Death Throes Compilation: I'd rather see this kind of effect attached to Melodious Murder for thematic reasons, and give this addon some sort of "Tuned Carborator" treatment, make it reduce our movement speed to 4.4 m/s and in return make the laceration meter 2 knives lower and reduce our throw-rate. I love the slow and methodical style of 4.4 and it just simply not existing anymore even within addon capacity is very sad. I do love your idea though, I just think Melodious is currently better suited for this.
- Iridescent Photocard: Honestly I don't mind this change, but it doesn't really need a laceration meter component- and could probably remain at 7 since you can potentially get that extra haste % if people are bodyblocking, again this addon doesn't break anything or go above and beyond currently and with higher values on average, with 6 knife trickster I only see this average haste % going down.
- Trick Blades: This addon doesn't really need any nerfs, I feel this would just lead to wasted work on BHVR's side for a niche case that hardly ever ends up finishing a survivors laceration meter outside of specified ranges. I'm thinking this catches a stray survivor with nearly full laceration meter once in maybe 1000~ games estimating based on my usage of it.
- Ripper brace: I think turning this up to 1.5x laceration is okay at the current range you have set. I'd honestly prefer this to even go to 2x laceration instead at 24m. Trickster currently has 0 reason to shoot from afar, and I think adding a benefit to his approach "Deadzone" is fun for a variety of reasons, and doesn't cause any problems since you still have to have clear line of sight and maintain accuracy on a projectile at far ranges.
- Bloody Boa: I don't mind moving this effect onto bloody boa, some currently like DTC but it's definitely not of iridescent quality to say the least.
- Fizz-Spin Soda: An addon like this I dislike, I find status-effects just kind of unnecessary and uninspired for trickster's kit. Perhaps you could roll combo into an addon exclusively and put that here.
- Trick Pouch: This addon could honestly go up to 15 and it would still be fine, especially if we don't have a second addon giving ammo. Personally i would prefer to see BOA go back to its 15 knife, and Trick pouch go back to 10- these both just felt great and didn't break anything.
- Inferno Wires: Big fan of this kind of addon existing and I see why you have the downside for missing set to 2, this adds an interesting dynamic in which this addon can change flow without causing huge concern.
- Memento Blades: Yes absolutely I want old death throes compilation back. Gimme gimme
- On-Target Single: I'd rather this not mess with baseline survivor internal clock on laceration meter, I think its a core of why Trickster is frustrating to play against and is to be avoided. I'd love to see a second "snipe encouraging addon" in this spot, perhaps the same effect you have for Ripper brace, but less numerically of a value so that ripper brace is clearly the better of the two.
- Ji-Woon's Autograph: Set this one to 2 and I honestly think it would be fine, old soda was fine and not very exciting anyway from a power-level perspective ( I love the design, especially with the matching slowdown as a double edged sword)
- Lucky Blade: I really dislike fiddling with laceration meter muscle memory for survivors, same reasoning as on-target.
- There's TONS of audio/visual triggers that simply do not function at the moment, these NEED to be added back regardless of which version BHVR ends up landing on. There are some audio triggers i've not seen since release, and some that I see once a month at most. Also some audio is extremely quiet or just not there (all of Trickster's knives used to hiss as they flew past you or left your hand, adding a sort of "weight" to them for both sides, and making main event far more of a notified threat) adding something of a main event "Active warning" alike oni is also a very good idea.
- I think combo can still work for addon design and honestly would be great to see in unison with your idea's, a lot of those laceration meter addons could be remapped toward a combo system for a playstyle that revolves around trying to never miss as opposed to downing survivors as fast as possible, this could lead to allowing for more customization of your trickster experience instead of the current version we have that feels frankly dull. We all want to be laughing alongside the maniacal madman that's putting on a show, his show cannot consist of dull mechanics and he's always had a multiple faceted design that elaborated on the complexity between the lines. Combo would be interesting and provide a style if in his addons but if it is put into addons it needs visual feedback (thinking samira from league of legends as an example) laceration duration modifying addons are boring for both sides and combo could fill that gap where laceration meter severely falls short. Personally combo to a small extent existing inside of basekit also provides a neat little minigame that doesn't break anything due to how rarely an A and S tier combo pop up (i see it honestly maybe a few times a game) something like this can exist without completely scrapping it and provide some hooks for addons to build upon.
This is all I can really think of at the moment, glad I went back and reread to conceptualize in my head. Excited for the future and hoping for some sort of response soon from the team.
Thanks- Revvium <3
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I think the best thing about reading this is it's opened my eyes about laceration, if decay started sooner but took longer to drain you could create a "Race against the clock" mentality where the survivors goal is to drain your bar out. Currently this gameplay loop results in either full drain scenario's or never ever decaying. Adjusting decay period to be longer basekit could give survivors a better concept of agency within the chase without directly hurting trickster's power level overall.
For ease of understanding conceptualize this exaggerated value:
- 5 second decay, but each laceration takes 5 seconds to drain and doesn't count as dropping a stack until that individual laceration number hits 0. For example: you get hit by a knife and it begins decaying in 5 seconds and then takes 5 seconds to get removed from that decay. leading to decay being on average similar values but allowing for more "interactive meter gameplay" as opposed to waiting 10 seconds of NOTHING followed by the meter hitting 0 in a matter of moments. The first example would feel better on survivor side because you see your progress for each moment you're breaking LOS and it would also feel better on killer side because your entire burst you did cannot just evaporate in a few moments visually on the meter. In practicality this would be the exact same overall time but encourage the trickster to "stop the meter" as they see it going down.
I hope this explains why I think this is such a groundbreaking difference of gameplay loop for survivor experience and also just trickster overall OP explained the decay better than I did but, we'd love to see those neon strikes on survivor side not be bugged again and this kind of thing would help with that.
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6 better than 8 is not good for game
because he is now 4.6 killer
he power can not better than 4.4
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I see a lot of people say this but with no explanation as to why. There's plenty of killers who are 115 that are much stronger and generally have less direct counterplay than Trickster. Just look at Blight and Billy on PTB, look at Artist, look at Xeno. Even Slinger has less counterplay than Trickster and he's 110, so I genuinely don't see why he can't just be 115 with his old stats, considering how fair his knives were across the board, and especially considering the nerfs I gave him to compensate his new speed and such.
Is there a single good reason why he can't be a good 115 killer, or is it just because of precedent? He's 115 right now and I still think he's less fair and interesting than old Trickster by a mile. I would at LEAST want to try it and see if it's actually too much, but nobody's willing to have that conversation it seems
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I feel bad for all those who loved this old trickster version. I tried this new version as my first time playing the character. That is the last time I will play trickster.
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like ptb blight.
if trickster want 6 knife/s it need a cool down when use knife damage survivor.
when trickster is 4.4 m/s 1.5s 100% knife dmg is good for trickster.
but trickster is now 4.6m/s killer, if 3.33 knife/s still only need 6 knife to dmg survivor is 1.8s but just Throw 1knife and use 4.6 to hit is too powful.
because if not dodge knife, 1.8s will be hit. but if dodge, The distance from the trickster will quickly brought closer.
Especially since there is no recoil at the moment.
4.6m/s OR Faster dmg by knife. is Choice by DBD.
this time they think this way is balance.
4.6m/s，3.33 k/s，8hit dmg. take dmg need 2.4s. even if trickster want to use fake throw, survivor still have a chance.
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Thats why I requested the other changes though, I aimed to make Trickster good and require smart counterplay to avoid dmg. He isn't easy and never will be, as long as stuff like main event is kept in check. Being 115 doesn't change that, he's limited by his ammo, lack of mobility, extreme precision, and sometimes map design too. I think all of that more than makes up for his ability being good. 115s just aren't good enough on their own without a good power to be a threat, as you typically need mobility of some kind to get hits.
Trickster would not be oppressive even with the stats i proposed. His power would still primarily feel the same way it always had, and has the same counterplay it used to. He'd just be better equipped to handle more situations and loops. If you don't want to lose your health states quickly, then don't let a 115 killer who has no mobility power get that close to you in the first place, and don't stay out in the open when he literally has a 48m warning range and has to hit you 6 times, giving you enough warning to start running somewhere. its simple really
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44m Lullaby but Visually 40m.
Yes, survivor can 40m keep away from killer.
but survivor don't.
just like 16m anti-camp.
because survivor don't understand abandon that survivor or cooperation save. so anti-camp is come now.
Trickster is the same
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Decided to brush up on the actual post itself and fill it with all my updated thoughts and my updated suggested rework. If anyone's willing to re-read it to see my more concise thoughts, godspeed. I'd appreciate it.
And again, I'm pretty open to any suggestions for add-ons and other misc basekit changes that aren't major. When I was given feedback, I changed my tune, and I'm always willing to do that. But I won't back down from my core belief that Trickster should be allowed to feel like his old self while still being 115. That change alone is not major enough to warrant the neutering of his power to the degree we see in current trickster.
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