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Partially revert DS... here me out
I know this one is gonna be a controversial 'hot take' but please hear me out first. I play a pretty even balance of killer and survivor and have been playing pretty regularly for the past few years. I have definately seen how the gameplay experience has improved in many ways over these past couple of years for both sides. So kudos BHVR for all your hard work.
However, there is a perk which I think needs to be looked at again with the benefit of hindsight and that's DS. DS as we all know was one of THE meta perks and there wasn't a player alive that wasn't aware of it, for better or worse.
I am aware of its colourful history as a perk and the reasoning from reducing its 5 second stun timer to 3 seconds however I think in order for it to be successful as an anti hard-tunneling perk (which is gameplay I think we'd all like to discourage the need for) this function needs to be reverted. I hope as general gameplay changes are made the killers that feel they 'need' to tunnel will deminish. At 3 seconds it simply doesn't allow enough distance to be created if the survivor is hard tunneled as they will be largely out of position off hook most of the time. Particularly with powerful M2 killers and all the haste effects killers now have access to.
I think its absolutely correct that it deactivates in the end game but as a once per game ability not once per hook state (albeit v. powerful) it doesn't accomplish what it used too, punish tunneling and extend the chases of survivors chased right off hook. I think (this is only off personal experience) the meta has changed suffiently, and variety has meant that I don't think this would be default auto pick like it used too if it returned to 5second stun.
I think the steps for anti camping are fantastic and I think this would be a great tool to help to greatly deter, hard-tunneling right off hook.
Thanks for your time if you read all of that.
Comments
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I'd love to see anti-tunnel perks buffed again, but... here's the thing that I think, while true, nobody wants to hear:
Tunneling is never going to get fixed. Ever. There's not a thing they can do, w/o reworking the whole system, to stop it. It's based on A, how the game works, and B, human psychology. It's based on the Killer thinking 'there's nothing wrong with me going after this Survivor again, even though I know it's tunneling.' It's purely in their head, which is why there isn't anything in the game that can actually stop a tunneler; unless you've got a SWF ready to die for you, or unless you're already ready to bolt out the Gate, you're almost always going on the hook again (and probably going to see the lobby screen shortly thereafter.)
Here's something I've been thinking on for a bit... What if they implemented something completely new? They've done it with the anti-camp system (though that is, uh... lackluster, to say the least. Too easily abusable/avoidable by the Killer, really..) so why not make something wholly new for anti-tunnel? It might be difficult to do w/o going completely overboard (i.e. the stupidly overpowered "unhooked Survivors are invulnerable, silent, and invisible for 60s or until conspicuous action" type ideas), but I think it's doable.
Plus, if it was implemented as base-kit (like BT and anti-camp), then everyone could make use of it, w/o wasting a perk slot on a perk that won't do anything besides stun the Killer for 3 seconds. If anything, 99% of the Killers I have stunned with DS will just see it like a taunt, and think "well, that Survivor just DESERVES to die now!" despite it being literal self-defense against their rude 'playstyle'.
tldr: My suggestion is don't bother buffing DS or other anti-tunnel perks, just make a base-kit anti-tunnel system that actually punishes Killers for tunneling.
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One lil fix for ypur theory:
The killer isnt tunneling despite it being bad, the survivors are telling him its bad ober and over again until anyone involved also looks at it like its bad.
Tunneling being bad is survivors being mad about losing a chase or dying early.
"To frustrate you and male you mad i drew you as the soyjack and me as the chad!" - no pic cuz i cant draw like C3
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Killers need strategy, they have lost a lot of strategy and tunnel mania is basically the final one if you play a low mobility killer. Maybe survivors should be more fair about this, and stop complaining. So what you lost in a game, learn from it and move on thats dbd. I mean that's how it works for killers right, we lose we move on? Why can't you learn too? We have to stop balancing the game based off of single player issues, but more of survivor teamwork or the killer having to strategize well to win. Perks that stun the player while doing their objective is unhealthy just like how I believe perks like jolt and pain resonance are unhealthy too. Both sides have strengths and should be able to use them and not be held back by a meta option.
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If there was no issue with things like tunneling, BHVR wouldn't have even attempted to stop Killers from doing it (i.e. with DS, OTR, etc.).
When I say tunneling, I mean actual tunneling, like "Survivor gets unhooked and Killer chases them immediately within 30-60s of unhook, before Survivor has a chance to get healed or perform any conspicuous action, sometimes despite teammates attempting to intervene." Not the stereotype of "I got unhooked and now the Killer's chasing me again, even though I started repairing/bodyblocked for a while/sabo'd the hook right in front of them!!" Because that's not tunneling.
And as for @LazyClown 's argument: The problem is that Killers often seem to forget (or just don't care) that it's a video game, it's meant to be fun for everyone, not just them. So they specifically target certain Survivors, it ruins the game for them and makes them feel useless, because they got removed from play so early on w/o a chance to recover or earn any real points.
Do I have games as Survivor where I get tunneled early, but shrug and move on? A ton, yes, but it's not fun. And I've played against many a team as Killer that make me feel like garbage because they're too good for me... or because they, much like a tunneling Killer would, seem to forget that it's a video game, it's meant to be fun, and instead decide to throw any and all sportsmanship out the window, as they go out of their way to do things that most people consider 'rude,' such as crouch-spamming and flashlight clicking.
Tunneling is bad, and it is an issue. The real problem, like I stated before, is 'how can we fix it?' And I'd love to hear ideas from anyone, both Survivor and Killer mains alike! because this is a problem that requires help from both sides to try and fix. 😃
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I'm not a fan of just making it a meta perk again. They do not want it to be meta, it's why they nerfed it.
Making it meta again is just moving backwards on the tunnelling issue.
They need to address tunnelling with a base game change.
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Like i already said in many treads: make tunneling not only rewarding strategy, make anti-tunnel not working in offensive way (i still bodyblocked with "weak" DS), and only then buff them.
We can skip all these steps and just make anti-tunnel strong, but well, it will end up with huge killers buffs anyway and survivors will cry about this.
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Why's the Burden of fairness only enforced on Killers?
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I'd go for two uses per game, one for each potential unhook, first is a 3 second stun, second is a 6 second stun.
Old DS worked so well to prevent tunneling because it was a deterrent, the killer had to expect it every time. However, it's not healthy to force survivors to run a perk as a deterrent, to have a meta perk essential to play, like old BT was as well.
The deactivation on conspicuous actions and at end game is great, and stop it being unfair to the killer, and I think in light of these, it can afford to be activated after each unhook.
This would make it a deterrent, but only on a case-by-case basis. The killer wouldn't need to anticipate it for every post-hook down, but after getting hit with the first one, they would know to expect the second, giving the killer a clear choice: tunnel and eat a 6 second stun the next time, or go for someone else.
Getting hit by one DS would be no different than it currently is, and the killer who's not deliberately hard-tunnelling has nothing to worry about. They choose not to continue tunneling off the second unhook and there's no difference, and the survivor isn't eliminated too early. They choose to tunnel a survivor out early and they need to eat a 6 second stun and work a little harder.
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It should be enforced on both sides. I'm certainly not supporting/endorsing toxic behavior on the Survivors' end. Any Survivor who goes out of their way to try and bully the Killer and make them feel bad should step away from the game and take a moment to consider why they act like that, so that they can fix the issue.
I was simply using a comparison, because this discussion is about DS and the problem of tunneling. Like crouch-spamming and clicking, tunneling is a toxic behavior that shouldn't be encouraged.
I still think the changes should be made base-kit, and not to DS itself. What do you think they could do to deter/stop tunnelers? I'd love to see another new system implemented, like they've been doing lately with the anti-camp and anti-3gen. 🤔
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Everyone = Survivors. What about the killer and the roles actual name? Umm tunnelling=killing. Is it that hard of a concept?
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Killing would be, "ok, just I caught and hooked Survivor A. I went away to kick a gen and found Survivor B, chased them, downed them, hooked them. Oh look, A just got unhooked by C! So, I could go back and chase C, or keep checking gens, in case D tries to pop one."
Tunneling would be, "ok, just I caught and hooked Survivor A. I went away to kick a gen and found Survivor B, chased them, downed them, hooked them. Oh look, A just got unhooked by C! Time to go back and immediately, purposefully target A again until they're downed, put them back on hook, and keep an eye on them. Oh, now B's just been unhooked? Let's give them the same treatment as A! back on the hook with you!"
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There's a very noticeable difference between these two behaviors, and I'm sorry if it's become so muddled for you over time that you can't tell them apart, because that certainly makes this debate harder for you. But they are different, and one is not ok nor fun for the Survivors.
If I get chased and put on hook first, that's fine. So long as between me getting unhooked and me getting chased for the second time, I've had time to do something like heal/get healed, start repairing a gen, etc., then that's fine. That's not tunneling. If the Killer comes straight back to hook once my feet hit the ground and chases me, deliberately ignoring my teammate who unhooked, that's not fine; that's tunneling. That's a problem, and specifically the problem we're trying to fix. Again, if you have suggestions on how to potentially fix this problem, I'd love to hear them! 😀 you're clearly Killer-sided, which gives us a good PoV into that side of gameplay, so you can definitely help out here if you want.
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Would you expect survivors to go for a new generator they dont know the condition of or go to their last gen they know the progress and location of? Most survivors would choose the already progressed generator.
So why is only the killer role expected to chose the objectively worse choice of target?
An injured survivor is objectively the better target and has nothing to do with the implied malice of your "tunneling" example.
You evaded my question of the burden of fairness by talking about rude gestures like teabagging, which isnt the same as choosing to pick a better target. Punching a hooked survivor is more of a killer equivalent to teabagging, or actual teabagging if theyre the pig or ghostface.
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Sorry, the reply you quoted was directed at somebody else's comment, so I think there's been a misunderstanding. Let me clarify:
I can see your logic, how 'going after somebody already injured better suits my interest (getting kills).' So I raise you this: if a Survivor could spend their whole game following you, the Killer, popping out at the most inopportune times for you (i.e. about to get a down, initiating chase, etc.) and proceed to blind you, completely stopping you in your tracks, with no limits to their blinds, would you consider that proper? You wouldn't get upset?
My point is, the Survivor's logic in that case is, 'I want myself and my team to survive. I could repair gens, buuut if I follow the Killer everywhere and prevent them from EVER getting downs or hooks, I can secure the win for my team!!' By your own logic, this makes perfect sense, and there's nothing wrong with this train of thought...
...this is, of course, if the Survivor is ignoring the following facts:
- That's not fun for the Killer at all, you're going out of your way to ruin the game for them, even though it's 'technically' just 'part of playing Survivor!'
- You could just play normally and repair gens, get saves, etc., and you'd still have a good chance of winning. You're going out of your way, choosing not to, and ruining the game for others.
If you played Survivor and got tunneled out of the majority of matches you played, straight from the start, you would not be having fun. Trust me, I've been there plenty. I'm assuming you're a Killer main, based on your debate, but do you think you could consider the logic from the PoV of a Survivor player in that place?
I know when I play Killer, I go well out of my way to make sure I never tunnel, because I understand what it's like to be on the Survivor side of that. I'm certainly not asking every Killer player to play like me; I'm simply asking if they could consider how they would feel in the shoes of the Survivor they're choosing to target and tunnel out of the game. 😥
The point this forum post is making is, how can we fix this problem? Because it is a problem; again, BHVR wouldn't have bothered with things like DS or OTR if it wasn't. I'm not here to keep reiterating that point... I just want people to share their ideas for a fix, whether you play Survivor, Killer, or both.
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Buff things that encourage you not to tunnel. BBQ used to reward people who didn't tunnel, and now it's almost entirely useless. Devour hope, pain res, and monstrous shrine ALL encourage playstyles outside of tunneling, and are all almost entirely useless. Buff these things that reward the "proper" playstyle and stop with the abuseable basekit ds
(Ds should be buffed to, add a charge for every hook, still disabled in endgame and on conspicuous action)
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Thank you for sharing your thoughts! And while I still believe power creep should be avoided, it would be nice for a few of these older perks to get some better effects... rip BBQ's bloodpoint bonus. 😥
Another clarification: I'm not asking for base-kit DS, I'm asking for a base-kit anti-tunnel change, like they've done recently with anti-camp and anti-3gen. That way people don't have to burn a perk slot in hopes that they can stop the Killer from tunneling if worse comes to worse.
Maybe we'll see more perks get added in the near future that discourage tunneling, whether for Killer or Survivor. I'm interested to see what the Devs will do!
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Anti tunneling changes won't stop tunneling. Killers do it because nothing else feels effective. If you make things feel effective then killers will gravitate away from tunneling
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I don't know, I don't tunnel, and plenty seems effective.
Seems like a you problem.
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Exactly this kind of idea!
I refuse to tunnel when I play as Killer, and I still get decent results. So why do so many people insist 'tunneling is required to get kills!' when that's not the case?
I think it's because these types of players have found themselves in a rut, whether it's the Killer they play, the perks they run, or their playstyle overall. They've gotten stuck doing something that clearly isn't working out properly, and they probably aren't having fun stressing out over it every single game, but it's their 'comfort zone.'
The fact the so many people have just given up when they play Killer and just decided, "I have to tunnel, it's the only way," are hopefully the same people that would be pushed back the most by an anti-tunnel feature/system. It would force them to play differently, and then they can find new ways to play that still allow them to get kills, having fun while also not resorting to toxic behaviors that ruin other people's games.
That's what I'm hopeful for. A fix that can help those kinds of players dig out of the place they've become stuck in, to find better ways to play, where its actually fun for everyone involved. 😄
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I run perkless and without add-ons. They don't do much
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It's high vs low mmr. High mmr, tunneling is essential
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Because they think they have to get a 4K every game, so they tunnel every game until they get boosted to high MMR where they have to tunnel every game to stand a chance, without learning the skills required to play without tunnelling.
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Maybe if you used some info or chase perks, you wouldn't be forced the tunnel?
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Running Survivor w/o perks: ok, understandable to do, mainly as a once-in-a-while challenge.
But if you're choosing to run no perks or addons on Killer, and then you're complaining that Killer is 'too hard'.... I mean, I shouldn't have to tell you that that is in no way a fair assessment of Killer, right?
And again: tunneling is not essential. You're just so used to depending on it, you don't want to consider something else, because its outside of your comfort zone. But I assure you, you don't need it to have fun playing the game. (See below paragraph!)
I've debated this myself, as well. The idea for most Killers that, 'I have to get as many kills as possible! even if it means tunneling, camping, etc.!' is a very, very flawed logic. Your Killer MMR/skill bracket is determined by kills, so by using behaviors or playstyles that you wouldn't use in normal gameplay, you are deceiving the system into thinking your skill with that Killer is higher than it actually is, thus you get better Survivors, harder games, you feel pressured to get kills, and the vicious cycle repeats.
The logic is: if you are playing Killer and keep finding yourself in difficult games, do not try to force any kills. You're only making worse for yourself. Like picking at a wound that's trying to heal. Take a few 'losses', let your MMR drop to where it should be, and you'll be much happier!
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I don't tunnel. But when EVERY single person playing says "this is what I feel like I need to do," something is wrong. Something needs to change because we're looking at a big chunk of players just not playing anymore
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I win most games till I slam into high mmr. I started playing this way because I don't want the survivors to feel like they got cheated out of their game (I personally don't tunnel). It's not about wins, it's about having fun. High mmr isn't fun, even when using perks and add-ons (add-ons are trash, I run pyramid head)
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Because Killers are roped into the idea of 'you have to get as many kills as possible, and if you aren't getting 3-4 kills per game you're failing,' when that should never be the case. You're playing to have fun, not stress out over 'gotta get those kills!'
Once the majority can free themselves from that mindset, things will start to get better. I believe it!
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They feel the need because it's 3k or 0k. If survivors can get 4 gens done with no deaths, they almost always get out, unless they 3 genned themselves. Killers snowball into the 3-4k or they get nothing done and feel absolutely powerless
It's this way because mmr launches low skill killers against a bunch of solos, they win a bunch and get yeeted into max mmr lobbies really fast. They feel powerless against people who actually know what to do and don't get to learn the middle ground. They don't get the chance to learn 2k games it's all or nothing
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I literally said I don't tunnel.
So not every single person. Just the loud ones.
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The vast majority do. I play both sides a lot, killer is my favorite. The survivors do have a point, it is a problem
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I bet the survivors bored to death by gens deciding its funnier to be pricks and constantly burning retinas until some did it to a dev on a livestream totally cared about the killer fun.
Yes I'm killer biased and totally would be upset if they kept blinding me for the lols or freeing survivors from my shoulder, undoing my work and making me need to win another chase. Kinda like DS, hey I'm tanggentially on topic for once. I wouldnt demand them to be nerfed into nonexistance though.
And these kinda killer unfuneffects stack, yet you only see killer complaints but no survivors rallying together to "not use those" every game.
I also laugh at "killers only want to 4k" being repeated everywhere as it was some argument against fairness. So? "Survivors want to escape"
If survivors didnt have the need to escape, they wouldnt complain about dying. They wouldnt need to vulture for the hatch etc.
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Killer sided? No all I want is 2k kills per trial, that's as balanced as it gets. Tunneling=Killing. It doesn't matter how the gens get done right? So you can cut out the middle man. If you change "tunnelling" killing you have no killer. No killer=No game.
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Agreed. Ds needs to still be a one time use ability, deactivate after 60 seconds, in endgame and if you start doing gens, etc... but the stun time needs to be buffed to 5 seconds because I almost never bring it for that reason alone. I'm not supposed to make sure I get downed next to a good loop to get value out of a very restrictive perk (for good reason but still), especially when a lot of the time it's not in my control where I'll be downed.
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Exactly this.
If the killer has hooked anyone else in between hooking a given survivor twice, that's not tunneling. It's not on the killer to ensure other survivors are rescuing in time. At that point it becomes babysitting and requires the killer to not just refrain from playing unfairly, but to actively throw the game to give survivors a better chance.
I do this now and then, I see a survivor who was only recently unhooked and who is outpositioned and the obvious target to go for, and I choose to let them go and have a chance at doing something else while I search for another survivor. But that's a choice I'm making, against my own best interests. The killer shouldn't be pressured to make that choice, if the survivors have played that poorly then it's not unfair that they experience the consequences.
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@Raptorrotas not all Survivors 'need' to escape. There are plenty, like myself, who just want to play for fun, or to play and help the team escape. And the idea of 'need the 4k' is because, to get a 4k in every game, those Killers tend to resort to unfair, unfun, or toxic behaviors/gameplay to get there. If you can get 4ks w/o playing like that, that's great! I applaud you (seriously, getting down to the last person left is always nerve-wracking...), but the people that are the problem in this situation are the people who decide to camp, tunnel, etc. to get that 4k.
@Simfeliz for your first comment, there are anti-tunnel perks in the game, but I don't know of any perks that would downright encourage someone to tunnel. Not to mention BHVR is already putting similar systems in place (anti-camp, anti-3gen) so why wouldn't they care the same about tunneling?
For your second reply (and @Seraphor 's response), the point is "Survivor A just got unhooked and hasn't been able to do anything before immediately, deliberately being chased down again by the Killer, even though the Killer could go after the unhooker." So for reference to my previous post, assume the Killer never caught the 3rd Survivor. It acts the same; they could go after the unhooker, but they don't.
You can keep making the argument of "in the Killer's best interest, go for the easier target!" and I get that logic. But it's not fun for that Survivor to be unfairly targeted when all they did is exist. Again: imagine being in their shoes. I'm not telling you "you can NEVER go after that person, how DARE you".. I'm saying you seem to be missing the point of 'this sucks, I wish it wouldn't happen as much.' ):
@LazyClown you seem to be intentionally ignoring my reasoning and refusing to budge on this "tunneling IS killing, killing IS tunneling" thing, which is just... completely untrue. But if you don't want to see that, that's fine. People can have their opinions. But I would ask that you don't attempt to skew this forum's debate any more, because it's about potential changes to DS and potential fixes to tunneling, and... to put it politely, if you can't see around this blockage you're stuck on, then you're acting the equivalent of a car crashed in the road who won't call a tow truck. You're blocking others but refuse to move.. 😓I want to help you but I don't know how, because I do not own a tow truck and you're refusing to let me call one for you.
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edit: Honestly, I think I've made my point with all of these comments/replies. I'd like to step away from this forum post for a bit, because I feel like it's derailing away from its original purpose (Potential buff ideas for DS to help stop tunneling) and I don't want to continue pushing it that way. Please do not quote me again expecting a response, I've made my debate as well as I can, doing my best to be polite and logical.
TLDR is "don't focus on buffing DS, focus on a base-kit system for anti-tunneling." That's it, that's my two cents. Thanks all.
Post edited by crystalkitti on0 -
To clarify I'm not trying to start a us vs. them thing. I'm suggesting one possible way to make the game more fun. I main Ghostface so I feel you and get the low mobility pain but I have to disagree on constant hard tunneling. It's just not very fun for anyone. What I often see called strategy is pretty boring for both sides from my pov, as a killer I don't want to sit 4m from hook and chase a survior for 4.5 seconds once I wait out BT. I want to loop or jumpscare people. I get in some situations you got to tunnel or they survior just runs into you cause they are clueless sure, but tunneling one person, then the next, then the next waiting near hook all the time not exactly my idea of a good time. Now I may be totally wrong about DS and people probably have better ideas I welcome them but I'm just hoping we can find a good middle ground. Also end game is a free for all but that's another discussion I think the exit gates shouldn't be able to be 99ed. I like ruin but for exit gates but not sure exactly how that would work on some maps. That's another topic for another post.
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I just say that anything that makes players not being able to play the game is an issue that need to be addressed.
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Basekit DS if you are picked up on deathhook and no other survivors have hooks might be good without it being broken or easily abuse-able. Would serve as a deterrent for killers to at least go for someone else while still allowing them to apply pressure if needed.
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DS is still on use, its still usefull. Can give your team an extra 20sec át least. Or even more if theres resources and you good. Noo need to change it.
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"I main ghostface". No one plays that killer at my level just stop please.
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Hey man, I'm sorry I'm not on 'your level'. Ghostface is a secondary main if you must know. Wesker is my primary not that it matters for what I'm trying to discuss.
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That's an intersting idea. I like it.
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