What do we do about the Proxy-Ranged-Face-Campers?!?!?
In this post I'm going to suggest the new problem of Proxy-Ranged-Face-Campers or Proximity Camping, which is when a Ranged Killer avoids the Anti-Face-Camp system because of the ranged Power, but is still able to get Survivors with ease that is comparable to Face-Camping.
TLDR: I suggest an addition to the Anti-Face-Camp system's Camp Meter where Survivor builds up Hooked rate if the killer has line of sight in the direction of hook while within X radius of the hooked Survivor. Details follow below.
So the anti-face-camping system has been out for a little while now and besides some people being confused about if the system was supposed to stop all kinds of camping, the only consistent complaint I have seen now is that certain ranged Killers can still camp as effectively as Face-Camping.
It's simple really, Just walk out of range of the hooked Survivor, wait for another Survivor to come, approach the hook, shoot at the survivor who is trying to save the Hooked.
Now we could have a discussion about if this strategy from those ranged Killers do or don't meet the literal definition of Face-Camping, but my argument is that Proxy-Ranged-Campers meet the definition of Face-Camping except that it is Ranged as well. Long argument in short I think fair minded Killers and especially Survivor can agree the strategy is as boring as Face-Camping, He is just standing there... menacingly!
My point being, If we can agree that Face-Camping should be discouraged because its a strategy were the Killer becomes too focused on the Hooked Survivor and still standing meaning they are not walking and looking for others, if we agree that is a problem, then we certainly agree this Proxy-Ranged-Face-Camper strategy should also be discouraged.
So I propose that bHVR takes a deep look at what a Proxy-Ranged-Face-Camper (PRFC) does that is different a regular Proxy-Camper and then place some additions to the Anti-Face-Camp system that targets PRFCs specifically that does not impact regular Proxy-Camper.
What I would like to do now is use my own experience as a Proxy-Camper to contrast myself against Proxy-Ranged-Face-Campers and talk about ways to discourage one more than the other so Killers still experience some freedom regarding guarding a hook or using it as bait and that the uncouth strategies are punished with Additional Charges to the Camp meter in the Anti-Face-Camp system.
So the most consistent differences between the PRFC and regular proxy-camping is the lack of specific movement away and around the map and that Proxy-Ranged-Face-Camper strategy requires you to look in the direction of the hooked Survivor much much much more than regular Killer gameplay ever requires, not even Proxy Campers are required to observe the the Hooked Survivor so much. I believe we have a platform to discourage/punish this Proxy-Ranged-Face-Camper strategy here. So with that...
1 . We can make a rule addition that says, if a Killer looks in the direction of the hook that incurs an addition to the Camp meter buildup, the actual values of how much and how long are up for bHVR to figure out.
Mechanically, this is watching the Killer vision cone, if that meets the hook with a Survivor on it this rule applies.
This won't harm regular Killer gameplay because we really don't look at the Survivor for that long and a small addition to the Camp Meter isn't a problem for Killers. Sure every Killer needs to take a look at the Hooked Survivor, but what we look for is 1. Another Survivor, 2. Scratch marks, it does not take a huge amount of time to make that observation. As you get better as a Killer the time you need to make that Observation gets shorter and shorter. This change COULD be harsh to new players because they may want to look at the hooked Survivor more than a veteran, however the Camp Meter can stomach some charges without penalizing an inexperienced Killer.
But what this WOULD harm is the specifically Proxy-Ranged-Face-Camper, they would have to look away, that makes it much harder for anyone to do that strategy. Sure they can do quick peeks, but that would make it a lot more complicated and that discourages it. This could also discourage Killers who just straight up walk away to come running back the second they see the Survivor, "Wraith I'm looking at you. You've been a naughty boy, Wraith."
It is my opinion that adding just a few more annoyances and complications to the strategies we want to discourage is probably the best solution we would ever get for this, because we must also respect the Killers having freedom to Guard the hook in some capacity. As a veteran Killer that freedom is paramount.
Sure a very experienced veteran Killer could eliminate the penalties so much they might be able to still PRFC despite these changes, but a player of that caliber should easily be able to play the game without camping and if this does indeed become a big problem. The charges to the Camp Meter for looking at the hook could be increased for higher mmr players-
2 . FURTHERMORE, We can also make a rule addition that incurs an addition to the Camp meter buildup to the Killer for not moving far or Moving at all while there is a Survivor on Hook, the actual values of how much and how long are up for bHVR to figure out.
This is also a part of the strategy that both Face-Campers, Proxy-Ranged-Face-Campers and indeed the Proxy-Camping behavior that is bad like what Wraith does, silently watches from away and comes running when they see the other Survivor. What we want is the Killer to not be stationary, we want the Killer to be moving and looking in other directions. So if the Killer is just standing there... menacingly!, We can make that a penalty as well.
It's also a penalty that does not harm regular gameplay as much, this will affect the Proxy-Ranged-Face-Campers, because they need to be in a specific point in the map to have a good clear shot at the Hooked Survivor.
This will also affect Wraith Killers who run off and stealth and just sit and observe the hook, which I think is also problematic and unfair to the Survivors. It does not make that strategy completely impossible but it should discourage the strategy and encourage the strategy of constantly moving around and looking elsewhere which is what we are looking for.
What is important when it comes to these two additions to the Camp Meter isn't that one will do all the work or that one will fully break the Killers' Experience of Freedom. But it IS that together they make the regular Killer gameplay which isn't problematic and unfair easier to execute than the ones we can agree on being bad.
3 . I hope bHVR considers these additions to the Anti-Face-Camp System to deal with Proxy-Ranged-Face-Campers, while sure PRFC Killers are pretty rare, when it happens it really ruins the experience for the Survivor and Dead by Daylight should certainly have the Killer be a threat but too much of those boring / too easy and unfair strategies just makes the Kettle boil over. bHVR you MUST be vigilant in regards to combating these small moments and experiences that are bad in the Killer/ Survivor gameplay, and I think Killers can easily take those two additions to the Camp Meter without suffering from lack of options on how to play.
So I hope you don't rest on the laurels regarding how the Anti-Face-Camp system works atm, it's a success but it could use more additions if you wanna deal with these new annoying playstyles that pop up. I believe in you.
Thanks a lot for reading the whole darn thing! Hope its been useful read.
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Why not just make the Anti-Face-Camp system's Camp Meter build up further away for Ranged Killers?
Well while this idea would seem the most simple, it does also deeply affect any ranged Killer who just wishes to Proxy-Camp, but abides by doing all the right Killer things, like looking for other Survivors and not focusing on the Hooked Survivor. So I find this alternative to be bad because it's too broad.
Biggest problem with this is still the Social Implication of the Anti-Face-Camp system.
There is a problem which I have seen less and less of in regards to the Anti-Face-Camp System and changes to that system may cause that discussion to flare up again. That is that some people have interpreted that any buildup on the Camp Meter, means the Killer is Camping and therefore is a problem and bad. This isn't true, it just means the Killer is triggering those penalties with their current actions and its actually only when the Self-unhook when it is triggered, that I think you can concretely say, yeah the person was camping and it was a problem, it was a problem so much that bHVR decided to step in and direct the game. I think it's best to ignore that discussion really and focus on the problem of strategies that are really bad for the player experience instead.
Comments
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Playing as a survivor isn't casual enough for you? Let's make it even easier!
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Gentlemen, if you read my post fully, you would know I advocate for Proxy-Camping as the default. Certainly not about being easy on Survivors. Nor would I consider crafting a a constructive suggestion about a subject I'm passionate about, to be crying.
A proxy-camper is also much more dangerous to deal with, vs. a Proxy-Ranged-Face-Campers which is so boring to experience.
I'm just considering the other-side too and I agree with them, the strategies these Killers use are basically the same as Face-Camping, except its at a distance on a Ranged Killer. Its worth addressing if bHVR wants to be vigilant about the experiences the game gives. Not a tear needs to be shed to come to this conclusion.
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Proxy Camping isnt face camping. Stop making stuff up, If a ranged killer is aiming at the hooked survivor then the rest of the team should be knocking out gens, besides, even if someone was to get near the hook, the ranged killer would have to rely on their skill to get the hit to which you will still safely unhook them.
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This was a very verbose way to say, "Punish people for looking in a particular direction."
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I literally explain the difference between the two many times, I'm not making it up, I have seen it happen and even done it myself.
If a ranged killer is aiming at the hooked survivor then the rest of the team should be knocking out gens
Yeah this is an old chestnut in this community, and if we would employ that then the same logic could be applied to remove the Anti-Face-Camp System too, which is clearly not the way bHVR is going at all. Clearly bHVR wants a better experience, than the ones that make people quit the game, even if the Killer was skilled or not.
A little bird once told me, reasonable, understandable, carefully considered arguments and explanations of the values employed etc go a lot longer to convince a developer than just being a an incomprehensible voice among thousands. But its also because I care a lot that this game goes in a good direction, its worth the effort.
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Oh, don't get me wrong, I certainly wasn't using it as an insult. I appreciate a good explanation as much as the next man. It was, however, still a lot of words to say that you want to assign intent to a harmless action and punish people accordingly. As well written as your post was, it doesn't change that.
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Do not worry, I thought it was kind of cheeky too. What I mean is the the problem requires a lot of saying to fix proper, more than If I simplified it, the simplification is still valid. However bHVR often asks for constructive feedback and while they would probably never verify it for me, I have seen things I have argued for here been implemented into the game very close to my suggestions.
That is why the feedback must be thicc, the arguments strong and the logic clear and understandable.
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It's extremely funny how killers are still saying that camping (and tunneling) are ways how to play the game even though devs are trying to get it out of the game, but sadly enough they havent really solved the problem entirely. I agree that the devs should do something about the proxy-ranged-face-campers, but i'm afraid that a solution will be hard.
As i get these kind of killers a lot, my main is just to run deliverance, and usually one of my friends are running reassurance. Basically just wasting killers time and doing gens more faster with a toolbox or prove thyself.
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"Proxy-Ranged-Face-Campers"
That's a new one to add to the list along with:
"Camping gens"
And
"Tunneling all survivors at once"
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Quoted the wrong person, sorry. But I agree. BHVR is doing way too much to counter bad survivor play instead of keeping the game tough and letting the survivor get better.
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Tunneling and Camping are totally acceptable and it's time for survivors to stop making up fake bad ways to play to justify making this game easier them. There are tons of ways to counter this and it's time to just take a deep breath and stop saying this.
Post edited by Rizzo on7 -
Its not a benefit if the Killer doesn't play like a Face-Camper. You don't need to suggest that I leave the game over this idea, I am perfectly fine as a veteran Killer. However there are ways a Killer can play that absolutely ruin the tempo of the game for Survivors, quite a few people I know quit because of how rough the experience can be, specifically with how the Killer is allowed to just stand around the hook. Thankfully bHVR has started to address this with the Anti-Face-Camp System.
Furthermore, bHVR has an open mind and they are able to evaluate an idea perfectly fine and work to find a solution.
They don't need your warning from the sidelines.
Tunneling and Camping are totally acceptable and it's time for survivors to stop making up fake bad ways to play to justify making this game easier them. There are tons of ways to counter this and it's time to just take a deep breath and stop saying this.
Ironically this logic could be used to remove the Anti-Face-Camp System too, but I don't think that is the way bHVR is rolling anymore. They implemented an Anti-Face-Camp System so there certainly is some plays that can be addressed. I know I would be able to play perfectly normal even WITH these new additions to the Camp Meter.
Also, its not your place to tell @baloona to stop saying things If they believe them, we all have a voice on this forum and you should not use yours to demotivate others from using theirs. Their position isn't embarrassing, in fact its pretty common and its perfectly valid to have an opinion on the rough parts of this game.
Its up to bHVR to see if they should change things to make the experience better.
Post edited by EQWashu on1 -
go play killer.
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I'm literally a Killer veteran, been playing since 2016.
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so it no need to do about the Proxy-Ranged-Face-Campers.
survivor can do some gen and trade hook.
killer will lose 130%gen
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By that logic, We would not need an Anti-Face-Camp System anyway. But clearly we do and that is for a good reason, getting face-camped and tunneled without hope is literally why people have quit this game. And Sure, this game could be niche and only for a group of hardcore players who can take the pressure. But actually getting more mainstream and allowing less 'hardcore' players to have a smaller chance of a bad experience. I embrace that change from bHVR.
So I'm fine with player Killer that way; No I cant just stand there and guard the survivor up close without penalty. I need to find the other Survivors. That's what the Entity would want too, its quite clear bHVR can and should discourage these bad strategies.
Im not for keeping the game in a state of bleeding players, and neither is bHVR.
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ok, let 16m→40m, even Huntress need 1s to hit survivor by Throwing axes.
make killer never gonna hook survivor up, just 4 down and slug.
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Already considered that, and that would punish all Killers walking even in the distance, which I would argue would be worse.
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Proxy-Ranged-Face-Campers
you know that this terminology contradicts itself?
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I am so glad the devs have been outspoken and CLEAR about the fact that proxy camping is a viable strategy.
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I'm not sure the words Proxy-Ranged-Face-Campers really work (it's not really face camping, if the killer isn't right next to you, although original face camping hasn't been a thing for a long time anyway) but I like your suggestion overall. Figuring out the exact numbers would not be easy. It definitely cannot be map wide or else survivors would have the killer look in that direction during a chase and then this mechanic punishes them not matter what. It also can't be too short because then it wouldn't be very effective. A Huntress can hit you from 20 metres away.
That part about the killer not moving at all wouldn't work. It would only serve as a minor inconvenience but when someone is determined to camp, then having to walk 2 steps back and forth isn't going to stop them. Forcing them to walk larger distances could have the intended effect but it would also become a bit of an issue when the hooked survivor is either in a dead zone (doesn't matter then, as the killer could circle the hook) or they are in an area where the killer will need to stay (for example 3 gens).
I think killers need more of a reason to actually leave the hook. Same as for tunneling. As it is, both tunneling and camping become the go-to strategies in many cases. Partly because they are pretty easy to execute and quite effective at that. But also because killers have no reason at all to play normally. There is no base game mechanic to push them towards a more fun play style. Quite the opposite actually. Because many issues killers face can be worked around with tunneling and camping.
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Yeah I know it could seem like that, unless you read the very first part of the post I made which is the meaning I use for that phrase in this context. if you got a better word that fits precisely the player Im trying to describe as well as what they are basicly doing the same thing as, aka face campers but ranged them idd love to hear it.
That part about the killer not moving at all wouldn't work. It would only serve as a minor inconvenience but when someone is determined to camp, then having to walk 2 steps back and forth isn't going to stop them. Forcing them to walk larger distances could have the intended effect.
Is this part unclear in my post? I thought I said moving far, which would be more than 2m or 4 or like 8m.
I think killers need more of a reason to actually leave the hook. Same as for tunneling. As it is, both tunneling and camping become the go-to strategies in many cases. Partly because they are pretty easy to execute and quite effective at that. But also because killers have no reason at all to play normally. There is no base game mechanic to push them towards a more fun play style. Quite the opposite actually. Because many issues killers face can be worked around with tunneling and camping.
I think this view is too idyllic, Face Camping as we are already punishing is usually made from 1. lack of skill, 2. a desperate strategy, 3 someone who has a stick up somewhere regarding that specific survivors. Any secondary "incentive to leave hook" would have very little effect where it would actually mean anything.
I much rather want bHVR to build a ground floor of mechanics against such behaviours that stabilizes the experience for both sides, and then we can have idyllic nice rewards such as more blood points from hooking a new Survivor instead or stuff like that afterwards. Just know im not against incentive changes like, they are smart, its just I want systems in place that are reliable first.
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Eventually the killer will not even be allowed to stand on the same map as the survivor!
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You can, but I bHVR takes my ideas into implication. if you walk away and stand and stare from a corner, then that Hooked Survivor will build up Camp meter. Which is up to you to consider if that type of Proxy Camping is worth your effort or if you rather go look for other survivors, like you ought to do.
Its really not restrictive at all. its just a consideration.
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Is this part unclear in my post? I thought I said moving far, which would be more than 2m or 4 or like 8m.
It seems I misunderstood that part.
However, this would only lead to players walking back and forth. I doubt it would be much help. An inconvience surely. But not enough to actually get someone to stop proxy camping.
I think this view is too idyllic, Face Camping as we are already punishing is usually made from 1. lack of skill, 2. a desperate strategy, 3 someone who has a stick up somewhere regarding that specific survivors.
That is a bit oversimplified, don't you think? Sometimes camping is just the logical thing to do.
Survivors don't heal and just push gens? Camp that guy. Someone will have to heal, if they want the unhook. Otherwise that guy dies and you may get a second kill after that.
You play Plague and nobody cleanses? Same idea.
Survivors hide and pre run every chance they get? Let them come to you.
Chasing takes too long because the map is stacked beyond reason? Camp that guy.
There are more examples but you get the idea. In all of these situations working with further punishments and giving the killer some small incentive to get into the next chase could work wonders. I'm not talking about extra BP here. Let's be honest, most of us don't care about BP over wins. Especially not now, that you get addon stacks you can never fully use. The reduced grind had this as an unfortunate side effect. The only reasons to grind are for new players to unlock perks and for veterans to get characters to P100. Which is not really worth it because it's just a number. You don't unlock anything special.
Instead, 1 survivor with the least hook stages could be revealed to the killer after they get a hook. That would already help tremendously.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think incentives alone will work. But penalties alone will not work either. The more you punish a killer for playing effectively, the more they will be inclined to double down on that. Because all these penalties will be abused in some way. This is why I think it takes both incentives to leave the hook and penalties to stay around the hook.
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However, this would only lead to players walking back and forth. I doubt it would be much help. An inconvenience surely. But not enough to actually get someone to stop proxy camping.
Its inconvenient yes, but it also forces the Killer to take focus off the Survivor they want to Destroy. You are right, I can bring a horse to the water, but I cant force it to drink. But I can suggest it to drink. So the logic is if they are forced to look away and start patrolling they are likely to see something else and pursue that. This would also give Survivors a better chance to go in and get the save compared to the status quo. Which is what we wanted, we wanted the experience for the guy on the hook to be more fair.
The logic is simple for me, if Face-Camping was not fair, then doing the exact same thing as Face-Camping but standing 16m away is also not fair. Maybe not as unfair as Face-Camping, but its pretty bad and to experience it is also super bad. Game quit moment.
That's why I hope bhvr takes initiative on this, even the Entity would probably be like "dude you are just standing there, you pancake."
Sometimes camping is just the logical thing to do.
Sorry I should have been more clear, when I say "desperate strategy", I mean when its the right thing to do. You know when lemming Survivors come running, and the Anti-Face-Camp system already allows for that and I'm not against it. That is perfectly fine.
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I'm not censoring anyone, so don't get upset. But imagine if I came on here and said something like "loops are too hard, we need to make loops easier with an anti-looping base perk." I can say something like this, but it's kind of silly, which I think is 100% the same for Tunneling and Camping complaints. So you can say it, but it's like saying "I hate tunneling and camping because it makes me lose." That's the point. Save the argument for something productive.
For camping, just do gens. When I first started playing I would camp and I'd lose because people would just do gens.
For tunneling, there are perks you can bring. The anti-camp helps with tunneling. BT as base perk helps with tunneling. Practice your looping skills - when I tunnel plenty of good survivors loop me and I fail. We don't need more easy mode when tunneling has lots of counters.
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You tried to downplay another user's opinion without using any relevant argument and suggest their answer was not socially acceptable, so much so that a moderator came in to edit your post. That is downright terrible and you should be ashamed for trying to downplay your actions a week ago.
Speaking of not having a relevant argument, your response does not address anything I have said, you just repeat yourself instead of going into details I asked you about. Repeating yourself isn't an argument. What would be a relevant argument to address why you think running the game wild west style in regards to camping and tunneling would be good since camping and tunneling is a major concern that loses us players.
Like I get that your response probably is that you dont care if some people quit the game, but that just goes to show how terrible that argument is and how bHVR should care about the experience of their players rather than ignore it. Luckily bHVR is wiser than the arguments you give me here by making systems to alleviate those problem games to be less.
I dont think there will be a productive discussion with someone who only cares about their own side when the other is hurting and losing players, especially when you dont engage with the arguments I give to you. I believe as bHVR we must look past that.
Post edited by Emeal on1 -
Laughts in Scratched Mirror Myers on Lèry's.
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What did I not address about your post? Where did an admin edit my post?
Camping and tunneling are totally acceptable. Just like looping and body blocking are totally acceptable. Instead of messing with more benefits for survivors, survivors just need to utilize existing mechanics.
Your post has been addressed, twice now.
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Hey there, I saw I fumbled the sentence, Sorry about that. My question was why you think "camping and tunneling is totally acceptable" You have certainly made me aware that you think that IS the case, but that isn't a view everybody has so we certainly need to get into roots of why the game should be that way. Like me, I don't think camping and tunneling needs to be the status quo and be all and end all of this game. Why should I think that Camping and Tunneling should be protected as it is now? Do you see the question now?
And about the posts, you need to scroll back, the moderators edits the posts if you are too uncivil.
This forum is a work environment, people who are trying to work have to read these so they have to be cool.
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Killers don't need to look at the survivor that long, and only dumb ones do that. You look where the rescue is coming from.
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You are right about the editing by the moderators, I didnt see that. No notice - so they can completely change my words? That's ridiculous.
Ok enjoy your game and good luck.
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